Is "missing social cues" normal for a 7-year old or a possible sign of ASD?

[monkeybum]

I haven't taken DS for a formal dx because I'm not really sure if there is anything to worry about, but I've always had it in the back of my mind that there have always been "odd" things about him.  However he excels academically and up until recently had lots of friends, so I have never worried.  But now I see it interfering as he gets older.

The main thing I really notice is his lack of understanding social cues.  He talks very loudly (does have some dx's fluid in middle ear and temporary hearing loss) but he goes right up to people's faces and talks to them an inch from their face.  He doesn't "get" it when kids are laughing at him, or making fun of him.  He doesn't "get it" when other kids pull away, or turn their shoulder, or give him a "look" that means go away or stop it.  He just keeps at them.  He talks, he jokes, he just generally acts really silly and other kids get really turned off by it.  He doesn't at ALL sense when others don't appreciate what he is doing or aren't joining in, and that it might be a good idea to stop.

What has happened is that most kids I see him interact with (other than the rare child who is like him where they then instantly click) get totally annoyed by him, he's actually gotten beat up, kicked, pushed, etc. by kids who have given him LOTS of cues that they are not "in to" what he is doing but he doesn't stop.

For example, one boy he kept going up to him and putting his face really close to him and saying something silly like "do-de-do-de-dooo" and moving his head around, the boy turned his back to him and gave him a dirty look, so DS went around to the other side and did it again right in his face, and said something like "look at me I'm a marshmallow" (or whatever silly thing he was trying to do), but doing it right in the boys face again, the boy pulls back and says "get lost!", DS does it again, the boy pushes him, DS does it again, the boy finally pushes him to the ground and kicks him.

Last weekend we were at the park and a boy his age was on the climber, DS went up to him and starting doing the same kind of thing right in his face, again the boy went away from him, turned his back, told him to stop, etc. DS didn't and the boy finally kicked him.

I've tried talking to him about it and I remind him of it when we go places, but he just doesn't get it.  His school was a little concerned because he spends recess with the teachers (he also likes to socialize with the older kids, but like 6-8 years older).  They wanted him to "socialize more with peers his own age", but he says none of them like him.

He has weird sensory stuff, spent a lot of time lining up toys etc. as a young child, and is a total whiz at math (for fun, he likes me to quiz him on gigantic math problems to see if he can figure out the answer without a calculator).  He was reading at age 3 and is quite bright (tested borderline gifted).

Is the social cues thing potentially an ASD issue, or is that just normal for some 7 year olds?  He is male if it makes a difference.

Oh yeah, and he used to be really empathetic as a toddler, but now when someone cries he often laughs... :(

TIA

[PikkuMyy]

The social cues is potentially an ASD thing, combined with the lining up toys, sensory issues, hyperlexia, and math skills.

It isn't typical for a child that age to behave that way socially without recognizing social cues, especially big ones like getting beaten up. It sounds like your son would benefit from some social skills training, either through school or through an outside class.

I didn't read your other thread yet but noticed that you are worried about labels.

I wouldn't worry about labels. Labels can provide your child with access to the support he needs to be happy and successful. He's already being labeled as a wierd kid who won't get out of people's faces by the other kids. So you might want to consider an evaluation to see what services he could qualify for to help him.

[naturemomma13]

I've been doing a lot of research on Asperger Syndrome and have been hearing about it a lot from different therapy/practitioners/doctors because my son is on the road to getting a diagnosis of Asperger Syndrome or Autism or PDD-NOS or Sensory Processing Disorder. 

What you describe sounds very much like Asperger Syndrome in a seven-year-old boy (According to my research anyway!); I have been reading that children with AS often do not understand the concept of personal space.  My son is still quite young at almost 22 months, but he also tends to get a little close; often he hugs people after being near them for just a short time, sometimes not even looking at them before he clings to their leg for a good squeeze (this is partly a sensory issue when he is stressed). 

What makes us think our son is AS is due to the great disparity in his cognitive skills (over 99% for his age) to expressive language (9%)-- as in, he has adequate vocab, but does not use it to converse, nor does he offer much eye contact.  He has sensory issues, he is an emerging reader, and is obsessed with the alphabet/numbers. 

Does your son have any special interest over which he obsesses?  It sounds like that is one factor normally noticed in Asperger children.  I hope this helps!

[raksmama]

It was could be a Non Verbal Learning Disability. Missing social cues is also common in people who have it.

http://www.ldrc.ca/contents/view_article/176/

I am not clear at all on the differences between, as well as the relationships between Asperger Syndrome,Non Verbal Learning Disability and Sensory Processing Disorder. I am still trying to learn about of them all too. There seem to be a lot of overlap.

Ds used to do things like getting too close into others faces at that age. He was diagnosed at 7 as having SPD definitely not Aspergers.  He is much better now at 13 and has many friends, but he'll still does things every once in a while that make me wonder.

[Rik-E]

Everything here.

Honestly he sounds similar to my aspie.

Originally Posted by PikkuMyy 

The social cues is potentially an ASD thing, combined with the lining up toys, sensory issues, hyperlexia, and math skills.

It isn't typical for a child that age to behave that way socially without recognizing social cues, especially big ones like getting beaten up. It sounds like your son would benefit from some social skills training, either through school or through an outside class.

I didn't read your other thread yet but noticed that you are worried about labels.

I wouldn't worry about labels. Labels can provide your child with access to the support he needs to be happy and successful. He's already being labeled as a wierd kid who won't get out of people's faces by the other kids. So you might want to consider an evaluation to see what services he could qualify for to help him.

[monkeybum]

Thanks for the replies so far.  He doesn't really have anything he obsesses over.  I've thought of Aspies too but haven't really looked in to it.

The part that is weird is that this is relatively new for him (the in-your-face stuff).  Up until about age 5, he had lots of friends and seemed to be fairly "normal" socially, sometimes overly silly and loved attention, but not quite as much as lately.  Part of what I attributed it to was that he went to 5 different daycares/schools in his first 5 years of life.  We moved 2 years ago to our current home (his new school) and that is where he's had trouble.  He's now been there 2 years and hasn't made any friends.  At his old school where he was for a year and a half, he had TONS of friends, and at the daycares he was at, he was adored by all the kids and he had tons of friends (every day when he would arrive in the Preschool room all the kids would stop and run to him, hugging him, excitedly saying "DS (his name)...is here!!"  His next school, for kindergarten, he was again the kid that "everyone loved".

Then we moved.  He started a new school.  Shortly after that he turned 6.  He has since been the kid that nobody likes, (but for some reason all the teachers in the school know, and like). That was around the time I started really noticing the in-your-face talking and the social cues stuff, I was embarassed for him when I saw him around other kids.  I have been very surprised at him having no friends in 2 years considering he was always so social and had so many friends.  This is why I wondered if it's maybe just normal 7 year old stuff.  But I've talked to him about appropriate behaviour (he's also big in to "bathroom words" at the moment) it seems really to not register, like he really doesn't understand.

Most of the other stuff was when he was little, he loved to line up toys, he loved to sort things by colour from a very early age, he loved patterns, he had issues with bright lights and loud noises,(more than was normal) he hated the feel of certain things (most things) on his skin (which he still has to a very mild degree, but not much).  A major thing that I think is weird is that right after he stopped nursing at age 3 1/2, he began playing with the loose skin on my elbow.  Now, whenever he's nervous or tired he does it, and every night to fall asleep, but he'll also do it to strangers, coaches, teachers, it's embarassing.  And it drives me NUTS.  But I know he finds it comforting.  He really does have no sense of personal space whatsoever (but we cosleep and snuggle all the time so I just figure I've never taught it to him).  I have asked him not to play with his coaches, teachers etc. arms and a few teachers have had to speak to him about it, most of the time he remembers.

He has always had a hard time managing his emotions, not sure if that is related at all, but it's definitely one thing that stands out for him among his peers since he was a baby.  He cried nonstop for the first year of his life. :( He was one of those babies who HAD to be carried, in the car or on the boob constantly or he'd be crying.  Then from the time he started to be independent to present, he gets very upset if he makes a mistake in his work, something doesn't go right, etc, it's like his emotional dial is on full charge all the time.

He loves school and has straight A-s, but I wish I could do more for him socially.

[Rik-E]

After this reply he sounds even more like my 7 year old. He has aspergers & sensory processing disorders / SPD. For the sensory stuff a good book to read is "The Out of Sync Child" which helps you to understand & recognise the sensory issues versus other behavours.

We started out with getting a referal from the pediatrician for an assesment with a pediatric occupational therapist who diagnosed his SPD. He has been in OT for 2 years now & it has made a lot of difference in many areas. After talking with his OT about his issues & observing a variety of her other clients who have ASD we eventually had our son in for an assesment with a neuro-psych who diagnosed him with aspergers & anxiety. The DX really does open doors to so many options to help! We did consider it for a long time & put it off for a while for fear of labels, but for us having the official DX is a help.

Originally Posted by monkeybum 

Thanks for the replies so far.  He doesn't really have anything he obsesses over.  I've thought of Aspies too but haven't really looked in to it.

The part that is weird is that this is relatively new for him (the in-your-face stuff).  Up until about age 5, he had lots of friends and seemed to be fairly "normal" socially, sometimes overly silly and loved attention, but not quite as much as lately.  Part of what I attributed it to was that he went to 5 different daycares/schools in his first 5 years of life.  We moved 2 years ago to our current home (his new school) and that is where he's had trouble.  He's now been there 2 years and hasn't made any friends.  At his old school where he was for a year and a half, he had TONS of friends, and at the daycares he was at, he was adored by all the kids and he had tons of friends (every day when he would arrive in the Preschool room all the kids would stop and run to him, hugging him, excitedly saying "DS (his name)...is here!!"  His next school, for kindergarten, he was again the kid that "everyone loved".

Then we moved.  He started a new school.  Shortly after that he turned 6.  He has since been the kid that nobody likes, (but for some reason all the teachers in the school know, and like). That was around the time I started really noticing the in-your-face talking and the social cues stuff, I was embarassed for him when I saw him around other kids.  I have been very surprised at him having no friends in 2 years considering he was always so social and had so many friends.  This is why I wondered if it's maybe just normal 7 year old stuff.  But I've talked to him about appropriate behaviour (he's also big in to "bathroom words" at the moment) it seems really to not register, like he really doesn't understand.

Most of the other stuff was when he was little, he loved to line up toys, he loved to sort things by colour from a very early age, he loved patterns, he had issues with bright lights and loud noises,(more than was normal) he hated the feel of certain things (most things) on his skin (which he still has to a very mild degree, but not much).  A major thing that I think is weird is that right after he stopped nursing at age 3 1/2, he began playing with the loose skin on my elbow.  Now, whenever he's nervous or tired he does it, and every night to fall asleep, but he'll also do it to strangers, coaches, teachers, it's embarassing.  And it drives me NUTS.  But I know he finds it comforting.  He really does have no sense of personal space whatsoever (but we cosleep and snuggle all the time so I just figure I've never taught it to him).  I have asked him not to play with his coaches, teachers etc. arms and a few teachers have had to speak to him about it, most of the time he remembers.

He has always had a hard time managing his emotions, not sure if that is related at all, but it's definitely one thing that stands out for him among his peers since he was a baby.  He cried nonstop for the first year of his life. :( He was one of those babies who HAD to be carried, in the car or on the boob constantly or he'd be crying.  Then from the time he started to be independent to present, he gets very upset if he makes a mistake in his work, something doesn't go right, etc, it's like his emotional dial is on full charge all the time.

He loves school and has straight A-s, but I wish I could do more for him socially.

[Emmeline II]

Even if he doesn't have Asperger's it's something that can be addressed (social resiprocity and pragmatics) I took ds to the children's hospital that had a behavior clinic that did a thorough evaluation for Aspergers; Ds is considered "possible Asperger's" at this point with a definite diagnosis of ADHD, SPD, and receptive language disorder. He sees a CBT 1-2 times a month, and had a great 1st grade teacher.

I just bought the book below for ds. I also bought the video game, which is pricey, but ds' social issues are of long standing. Next time I we see his psychiatrist I'm going to ask about social skills classes because I'm having difficulty finding them on my own. He is also going to start testing for Special Education; it's not for academics but to see if he qualifies for special help with things like social skills, and behavior.

You Are a Social Detective by Michelle Garcia Winner

[raksmama]

I second reading Out of Sync Child. As I said in my last post, he sounds like my son at that age and my heart goes out to you. It was really painful to watch at the time. Really sounds like SPD and I think you should get a formal DX by at OT first.

[Chicky2]

OP, you have posted about my family.   I am the mother and wife of a houseful of Aspies.  My husband lined his toys up like that as a child.  My son does that, too.  My oldest dd (and am seeing it w/my son now) did all of that not having a clue about personal space, never recognized social cues (and still struggles, but is so much better now), sensory issues, etc....My husband still sometimes struggles wiht social issues, and his volume.  My oldest has been dx w/a whole host of things, but the main issue is Aspergers and the fact that she is bipolar and has severe OCD.  Things really manifest differently in boys and girls.   We know that my FIL has the most severe Aspergers I've ever seen, and we are seeing some symptoms in my youngest dd now, too.  So far I have one child who has escaped being on the ASD. 

I would HIGHLY recommend checking out the Neurosensory Center of America.  It is a holistic treatment center, and we have seen really amazing results.  My oldest dd is completely off of all phychiatric drugs (she took Lithium, Prozac, various anxiety meds) and is now on an anti-inflammatory, and an anti-viral, iodine, and a specially formulated transdermal vit. b lotion, which I also have my son and youngest dd on.  My oldest should be off the anti-inflammatory and anti-virals in a few months, if the correct amount of healing has happened in her brain.  This place is simply AMAZING.

Along with the Neurosensory Center protocol, my oldest has seen a wonderful lady at the Autism Intervention Center who has helped her w/her executive functioning skills, social skills, and her perspective.

http://neurosensorycenters.com/

[RiverTam]

It could be ASD, but it could also be other stuff. Kids have a communication impairment without the other symptoms of an ASD.  Missing social cues and verbal cues points to a pragmatic language impairment.

My oldest has worked with a speech language pathologist for pragmatic language. It was really helpful.

"The Social Skills Picture Book" was also helpful.

We also used a video called "The Transporters" to help him learn to recognize facial expressions.

[RiverTam]

Originally Posted by Emmeline II 

Even if he doesn't have Asperger's it's something that can be addressed (social resiprocity and pragmatics) I took ds to the children's hospital that had a behavior clinic that did a thorough evaluation for Aspergers; Ds is considered "possible Asperger's" at this point with a definite diagnosis of ADHD, SPD, and receptive language disorder. He sees a CBT 1-2 times a month, and had a great 1st grade teacher.

I just bought the book below for ds. I also bought the video game, which is pricey, but ds' social issues are of long standing. Next time I we see his psychiatrist I'm going to ask about social skills classes because I'm having difficulty finding them on my own. He is also going to start testing for Special Education; it's not for academics but to see if he qualifies for special help with things like social skills, and behavior.

You Are a Social Detective by Michelle Garcia Winner

DS1 has this kind of diagnosis. He was originally dx'd with Mixed Expressive Receptive Language Disorder. We worked with that for two years. He is now diagnosed as ASD. As his language skills got better, he looked more ASD, not less. He's more functional, but better verbal skills let him express his perservative interests much more clearly.

The label doesn't matter that much to me. There isn't a pill he can take and be cured. Whatever the DX, all we can do is work on the deficits through therapy.

[sbgrace]

It sounds like my spectrum child.

I will say he fits in less socially as he gets older and his peers get more sophisticated socially if that makes sense. He stands out more. I also think sometimes spectrum kids get "more" spectrum looking as the social demands and complexity increase. They are uncomfortable or overwhelmed perhaps do either what comes naturally or what makes them feel better/more in control. That means increase in what you'll see.

[Chicky2]

Originally Posted by sbgrace 

It sounds like my spectrum child.

I will say he fits in less socially as he gets older and his peers get more sophisticated socially if that makes sense. He stands out more. I also think sometimes spectrum kids get "more" spectrum looking as the social demands and complexity increase. They are uncomfortable or overwhelmed perhaps do either what comes naturally or what makes them feel better/more in control. That means increase in what you'll see.
 

Yes, yes, and yes.  That is what I've seen, too.  My oldest, who also has the most severe symptoms was able to blend in and was nurtured and helped along by friends in school and she was able to do alot of mimicking of other kids so she didn't stand out as much.  It wasn't until the last year of high school and the first year of college that it all became REALLY visible, and then she had the onset of bipolar disorder to boot. 

[Linda on the move]

It really sounds like an evaluation is in order. I, personally, don't have the Asperger's label jump out at me in your posts. He doesn't have a special interests and he does have a history of typical friendship. BUT the evaluation process is to figure out what is going on with a child, what the clues are, what label goes along with those issues, and options and therapies might be helpful. You don't have to figure out the child first and then go through the process.

A book I would recommend is "Quirky Kids" by Klass. It talks about several of the dx's mentioned on this thread -- sensory issues, non-verbal LD, aspergers etc. It's a helpful, friendly book, and to me if feels like a hug from a friend.

Also, there are social skills classes and a specif dx isn't required to attend. I found one for my DD through a center for autism, but it was open to kids with other dx's (like ADHD) or no dx. We had to pay for it out of pocket, but it was some of the best money we've spent.

[monkeybum]

Thanks, these are all very helpful posts!  There has been a lot of other stuff going on in our family during these same 2 years that I saw the changes, following the move (which was very hard on him), his dad became suicidal and was diagnosed with depression, (and was saying a lot of stuff in front of the kids), I had a cancer scare, his dad was admitted to a mental health facility for 3 months and just returned at the beginning of the summer...there is also a history of verbal "abuse" towards me and DS, (extreme criticisms, name calling, ridiculing, etc.) and DH and I are now separating, there's been a lot of anger and tension in our home, it has been a hard, hard 2 years for DS.  :(

What has been interesting is that DS did a few summer camps and did GREAT socially!  It's like in a sports environment, he just came in to his own, cheering on his team mates, engaging with them in a very "normal" way, a lot less of the silly antics (which are maybe to get attention?).  I will look in to some of the books etc. you have all recommended on social cues etc.  He's always been very good at recognizing emotions on faces in books, etc. (or if he's bothering his brother and his brother keeps saying "stop it!" and he doesn't, I will say "look at your brother's face and listen to his words, how is he feeling right now, does he like what you are doing?"  But it's like in the moment (unless I stop and point it out to him) he doesn't see it or doesn't care.

So lots to work on and lots of good resources, thanks mammas!

[Linda on the move]

I'm very sorry about everything you and your sweet little boy have been through.

Has he had a chance to work with a counselor and talk through some of this stuff? I'm wondering if something like art therapy or play therapy would be helpful for him. If he did some kind of therapy (any kind) the therapist could provide input to an evaluation if you decide to one later. Even if the therapist isn't qualified to do evals, they can write up a report about what the see and what they don't see and the Dr. doing the eval. can use it.

This is what happened for my DD, who was seeing a cognitive behavoral therapist for anxiety and depression before her last eval. The therapist was VERY helpful both with the evaluation process and with the school.

[RiverTam]

Originally Posted by monkeybum 

Thanks, these are all very helpful posts!  There has been a lot of other stuff going on in our family during these same 2 years that I saw the changes, following the move (which was very hard on him), his dad became suicidal and was diagnosed with depression, (and was saying a lot of stuff in front of the kids), I had a cancer scare, his dad was admitted to a mental health facility for 3 months and just returned at the beginning of the summer...there is also a history of verbal "abuse" towards me and DS, (extreme criticisms, name calling, ridiculing, etc.) and DH and I are now separating, there's been a lot of anger and tension in our home, it has been a hard, hard 2 years for DS.  :(

What has been interesting is that DS did a few summer camps and did GREAT socially!  It's like in a sports environment, he just came in to his own, cheering on his team mates, engaging with them in a very "normal" way, a lot less of the silly antics (which are maybe to get attention?).  I will look in to some of the books etc. you have all recommended on social cues etc.  He's always been very good at recognizing emotions on faces in books, etc. (or if he's bothering his brother and his brother keeps saying "stop it!" and he doesn't, I will say "look at your brother's face and listen to his words, how is he feeling right now, does he like what you are doing?"  But it's like in the moment (unless I stop and point it out to him) he doesn't see it or doesn't care.

So lots to work on and lots of good resources, thanks mammas!

If he looks more normal in a sports environment, I would find as much of this for him to do as I could. The more exposure he has to environments that he can be successful in, the more social skills he can learn and the happier he will be to learn them. 

I was a serious swimmer. Swim team was a refuge for me when my parents were divorcing. 
 

[APToddlerMama]

Originally Posted by monkeybum 

Thanks, these are all very helpful posts!  There has been a lot of other stuff going on in our family during these same 2 years that I saw the changes, following the move (which was very hard on him), his dad became suicidal and was diagnosed with depression, (and was saying a lot of stuff in front of the kids), I had a cancer scare, his dad was admitted to a mental health facility for 3 months and just returned at the beginning of the summer...there is also a history of verbal "abuse" towards me and DS, (extreme criticisms, name calling, ridiculing, etc.) and DH and I are now separating, there's been a lot of anger and tension in our home, it has been a hard, hard 2 years for DS.  :(

What has been interesting is that DS did a few summer camps and did GREAT socially!  It's like in a sports environment, he just came in to his own, cheering on his team mates, engaging with them in a very "normal" way, a lot less of the silly antics (which are maybe to get attention?).  I will look in to some of the books etc. you have all recommended on social cues etc.  He's always been very good at recognizing emotions on faces in books, etc. (or if he's bothering his brother and his brother keeps saying "stop it!" and he doesn't, I will say "look at your brother's face and listen to his words, how is he feeling right now, does he like what you are doing?"  But it's like in the moment (unless I stop and point it out to him) he doesn't see it or doesn't care.

So lots to work on and lots of good resources, thanks mammas!

As I was reading your initial post, the first thing I was wondering was if there was something going on emotionally throwing him off a bit.  Seeing that you have all been through a ton in the past few years, I would really be wondering more if his behavior is a reaction to stress.  I've worked with a lot of kids who have dealt with trauma (and it seems like he has dealt with a lot of traumatic things in the past few years) who really seem to "miss" social cues and push others' boundaries, yet do not have anything like an ASD.  Regardless of labels, therapy for him would probably be very helpful.  Is there someone you could take him to see?  Many kids use maladaptive coping strategies when they are dealing with stress, and being up in others' faces tormenting them or being super silly when the other person isn't enjoying it can be one of those strategies.  A therapist may be able to help him process what he has been through and also develop better coping strategies.  I think therapy would be helpful no matter what, and if you are still noticing him missing social cues, then you may want to pursue an evaluation for ASD, etc.  

Best of luck to you and him, mama.  You have really been through a lot :(.