Protecting children from disappointing grandmother

[Evelynmia'smom]

I'm wondering how others navigate around disappointing and toxic family members while attempting to encourage a relationship between them and your children. My relationship with my mother has been strained for years. She was neglectful and abusive towards me as a child and even as I grew into an adult. My kids are 3 and 9 months and she is very loving towards them and I never leave her alone with them, however she is very very unreliable and never follows through with promises etc. A perfect example. My dd's birthday. My mother told me she was going to come for a visit and spend my dd's birthday morning with us with promises of gifts etc. Over a week went by and I never heard from her. I now know better and don't tell my daughter she is coming until I see her car pulling in the driveway. So, she calls on the morning of the birthday to find out when she can come up for a visit. This infuriates me to no end. I am at a loss, do I let my kids figure out that she is who she is by letting them get disappointed with her like I am and always have been or do I set up clear boundaries to protect them. My mother is so self-centered that talking to her about it or even getting angry with her about it only creates more discomfort. I really don't know what to do. It breaks my heart when my dd asks me where she is, when she's coming etc.

[zebra15]

You kids will eventually figure out that grandma never shows when she says she will.    I didn't protect my son from my toxic parents and by the time he was 3-4 he knew the boxes they sent (we live across the country) would be pure cr@p.  Same type of thing as your mom.  Grandma would ask DS what he wanted for his b'day and send the exact opposite.  Even now at close to 11 she won't honor his wishes.  DS loves legos and nintendo games.  She still won't send those things or gift cards to get those things.  I've given up and DS has as well.

What you can do is tell you DD that grandma isn't as reliable as some people and she makes promises she can't always keep.

Can you follow up with grandma, like if she says she is coming on Tuesday at 10am, can you call her Saturday to confirm then again on Monday?  Just a quick call to say "hey I wanna make sure you are still coming so we are here/ cuz if you are not we have other plans" type of thing?

[Evelynmia'smom]

thanks for your response. yes, I have done the calling to confirm thing and it only makes me more angry...(her phone mailbox will say it's full and then she will deny seeing that I called on her phone) I like the approach of saying that grandma is not as reliable as some people, etc. will try to say things like that. It just really makes my heart break to hear my dd ask where she is, and if we can call her etc. I was trying to avoid her feeling this kind of disappointment in someone who is important to her. 

[peainthepod]

I don't let toxic people have access to my children (or myself, for that matter).

I'm sorry your mother is the way she is and wish I had better advice for you. That kind of passive aggressive behavior can be so hurtful, which, I believe, is the point.

[Imakcerka]

If you protect her from the toxic grandma then she'll never really know what she's about.  She needs to know that granny is unreliable and not to have too much hope in her.  Otherwise you're actually just protecting your mother from showing her true colors.  Since this is your daughter, she doesn't need to put her on a pedestal.

[Mittsy]

I've learned from experience that there's a lot of truth in the saying, "if a person is too toxic for you to be around then they are definitely too toxic for the kids to be around".

I'm sorry.

[amberskyfire]

I do let some "toxic" people have supervised access to my daughter because I feel that it's too sheltering just to keep her around people that are what we see as perfect. I talk a lot to DD and we discuss things and I want her prepared for the world. I don't think she's old enough to learn by being let down time and time again, but I do think it's important that we talk about this person and how they are so that she understands.

For example, my husband has Aspergers. He's very much not a typical father and I have been bashed again and again by other moms because he's not a "perfect" dad. I think this is really horrible - not that he's not perfect, but that others can act that way toward him, as if he doesn't deserve to be a father because he's not capable of being fully present.

I don't want DD growing up thinking that there is something wrong with her dad or people with Aspergers and autism in general. That would be wrong. Instead, I use it to teach her acceptance and understanding of others, even if they aren't perfect. She knows that Daddy isn't like other dads and that we love him for his good qualities, which are many, but that she should know that it's not normal for other fathers to be like her father. She's totally fine with that. She completely adores her dad and we all work together to find ways for them to bond and have a fantastic relationship in their own special way.

My mother is not exactly in the "toxic" people group either, but she's definitely different from us. She's a heavy smoker and smokes outside quite a lot when she comes over. She's also super duper Christian and spends hours every day reading her Bible. DH and I are not Christian and we don't raise DD Christian, but my mom likes to sit and read her stories out of the Bible. DD sees her Mimi smoking and we have talked about it a lot and she knows that smoking is bad and that we shouldn't do it, but that doesn't mean she shouldn't ever see someone smoking. That's just part of life and growing up in the world. Some people smoke and we talk about how it's a bad decision. I have also asked my mom to sit down with DD and explain to her why she smokes (that she made a bad decision when she was younger and now she has an addiction) and that she's sorry she does it (I don't make her say this, she actually is sorry that she smokes) and she talks about bad decisions and how no one is perfect, but we try our best.

We also talk about my mother's religion. I don't forbid my mother to teach her because I think everyone should choose what they want to believe, but I do talk to DD about how Mimi is Christian, but not everyone is and that opens us up to discussion of all kinds of beliefs. I want DD to know that everyone is different and by being around people that are different, even if we don't agree with those differences, she learns to understand the world around her and accept others, no matter how different or even imperfect they may be. It's okay to be Christian, but it's okay to be other things, too. She doesn't necessarily have to believe what her grandmother believes. Everyone's beliefs are good and valid.

I have a friend that comes over sometimes. She is an alcoholic and her husband is abusive. She won't accept any kind of help but will sometimes show up with a bottle of wine and cry to me or talk to me for hours while she gets drunk and I keep her there until she's sober again. I don't feel that my daughter looks at this woman and sees her as a role model. I have explained to her that I love my friend, even if she is sometimes not good to herself and I hope that she doesn't see the way my friend drinks and takes abuse. I hope that what she sees is her mom's arm around that friend accepting her and offering any kind of support and help she can. She can see that I make good decisions and that I try to do what I can for those I love, even if they aren't perfect.

If I were in your shoes, I would explain to the kids that "we love Grandma and Grandma loves us, but Grandma doesn't always do what she says she will do. It's okay to enjoy spending time with Grandma, but remember that just because she says she wants to do something,  doesn't mean that she will." And, of course, keep from telling them her plans for now if she doesn't share those plans with the kids directly. I wouldn't want to cut someone out that meant well, even if they had flaws. I see it more as a lesson of acceptance and love of others. If the kids decide that they don't want Grandma around because she doesn't always keep her promises, then you can tell her that.

But that's just what I would do. I in no way imply that my decisions are the right ones! I just try to uphold my own values for my kiddo.

[*bejeweled*]

This is all what true Love is.

Originally Posted by amberskyfire 

I do let some "toxic" people have supervised access to my daughter because I feel that it's too sheltering just to keep her around people that are what we see as perfect. I talk a lot to DD and we discuss things and I want her prepared for the world. I don't think she's old enough to learn by being let down time and time again, but I do think it's important that we talk about this person and how they are so that she understands.

For example, my husband has Aspergers. He's very much not a typical father and I have been bashed again and again by other moms because he's not a "perfect" dad. I think this is really horrible - not that he's not perfect, but that others can act that way toward him, as if he doesn't deserve to be a father because he's not capable of being fully present.

I don't want DD growing up thinking that there is something wrong with her dad or people with Aspergers and autism in general. That would be wrong. Instead, I use it to teach her acceptance and understanding of others, even if they aren't perfect. She knows that Daddy isn't like other dads and that we love him for his good qualities, which are many, but that she should know that it's not normal for other fathers to be like her father. She's totally fine with that. She completely adores her dad and we all work together to find ways for them to bond and have a fantastic relationship in their own special way.

My mother is not exactly in the "toxic" people group either, but she's definitely different from us. She's a heavy smoker and smokes outside quite a lot when she comes over. She's also super duper Christian and spends hours every day reading her Bible. DH and I are not Christian and we don't raise DD Christian, but my mom likes to sit and read her stories out of the Bible. DD sees her Mimi smoking and we have talked about it a lot and she knows that smoking is bad and that we shouldn't do it, but that doesn't mean she shouldn't ever see someone smoking. That's just part of life and growing up in the world. Some people smoke and we talk about how it's a bad decision. I have also asked my mom to sit down with DD and explain to her why she smokes (that she made a bad decision when she was younger and now she has an addiction) and that she's sorry she does it (I don't make her say this, she actually is sorry that she smokes) and she talks about bad decisions and how no one is perfect, but we try our best.

We also talk about my mother's religion. I don't forbid my mother to teach her because I think everyone should choose what they want to believe, but I do talk to DD about how Mimi is Christian, but not everyone is and that opens us up to discussion of all kinds of beliefs. I want DD to know that everyone is different and by being around people that are different, even if we don't agree with those differences, she learns to understand the world around her and accept others, no matter how different or even imperfect they may be. It's okay to be Christian, but it's okay to be other things, too. She doesn't necessarily have to believe what her grandmother believes. Everyone's beliefs are good and valid.

I have a friend that comes over sometimes. She is an alcoholic and her husband is abusive. She won't accept any kind of help but will sometimes show up with a bottle of wine and cry to me or talk to me for hours while she gets drunk and I keep her there until she's sober again. I don't feel that my daughter looks at this woman and sees her as a role model. I have explained to her that I love my friend, even if she is sometimes not good to herself and I hope that she doesn't see the way my friend drinks and takes abuse. I hope that what she sees is her mom's arm around that friend accepting her and offering any kind of support and help she can. She can see that I make good decisions and that I try to do what I can for those I love, even if they aren't perfect.

If I were in your shoes, I would explain to the kids that "we love Grandma and Grandma loves us, but Grandma doesn't always do what she says she will do. It's okay to enjoy spending time with Grandma, but remember that just because she says she wants to do something,  doesn't mean that she will." And, of course, keep from telling them her plans for now if she doesn't share those plans with the kids directly. I wouldn't want to cut someone out that meant well, even if they had flaws. I see it more as a lesson of acceptance and love of others. If the kids decide that they don't want Grandma around because she doesn't always keep her promises, then you can tell her that.

But that's just what I would do. I in no way imply that my decisions are the right ones! I just try to uphold my own values for my kiddo.

[Adaline'sMama]

My mother is abusive and our relationship is very toxic. I have chosen not to allow her access to my daughter or my future child. My children deserve to be treated with love, kindness, and respect. My mother just isnt capable of that.

[Mittsy]

Originally Posted by amberskyfire 

I do let some "toxic" people have supervised access to my daughter because I feel that it's too sheltering just to keep her around people that are what we see as perfect. I talk a lot to DD and we discuss things and I want her prepared for the world. I don't think she's old enough to learn by being let down time and time again, but I do think it's important that we talk about this person and how they are so that she understands.

For example, my husband has Aspergers. He's very much not a typical father and I have been bashed again and again by other moms because he's not a "perfect" dad. I think this is really horrible - not that he's not perfect, but that others can act that way toward him, as if he doesn't deserve to be a father because he's not capable of being fully present.

I don't want DD growing up thinking that there is something wrong with her dad or people with Aspergers and autism in general. That would be wrong. Instead, I use it to teach her acceptance and understanding of others, even if they aren't perfect.

Ok, I'm assuming you are responding to me here. Firstly, where in my post did I say that I would only let children around perfect people? I refuse to let my children around emotionally/physically abusive people, but that doesn't mean we never talk about them, another lovely generalization there.

And, another thing where in hell did you get the "never let your kids around people with special needs" thing?! I guess I'm confused as to how this relates to the topic? I haven't heard anyone mention anything about people with sn. Just because your friends disapprove of your dh doesn't label the man toxic. This is a very sensitive issue here, I have MANY family members with all sorts of special needs, and my children have contact with quite a few of them.
 

[aparent]

   I think we tried the middle way too.  Perhaps in the

fashion kings used to be given very small amounts of

poison for a while so they eventually became immune to the

toxin, I hoped the children would gradually come to understand

their grandmother with a minimum or trauma while allowing them

the benefits of a relationship with her by limiting her negative

impact on them.

   I do not leave my mother along with the children and only

allow her criticism, anger or whatever to go only so far when

I'd draw her fire away from the children so it's directed towards me.

Sometimes it only means changing the subject or distracting

her before she starts; other times require me to control my own

issues with her in order to calm things down. Intervening early is

best. 

[mamazee]

Originally Posted by amberskyfire 

I do let some "toxic" people have supervised access to my daughter because I feel that it's too sheltering just to keep her around people that are what we see as perfect. I talk a lot to DD and we discuss things and I want her prepared for the world. I don't think she's old enough to learn by being let down time and time again, but I do think it's important that we talk about this person and how they are so that she understands.

For example, my husband has Aspergers. He's very much not a typical father and I have been bashed again and again by other moms because he's not a "perfect" dad. I think this is really horrible - not that he's not perfect, but that others can act that way toward him, as if he doesn't deserve to be a father because he's not capable of being fully present.

I don't want DD growing up thinking that there is something wrong with her dad or people with Aspergers and autism in general. That would be wrong. Instead, I use it to teach her acceptance and understanding of others, even if they aren't perfect. She knows that Daddy isn't like other dads and that we love him for his good qualities, which are many, but that she should know that it's not normal for other fathers to be like her father. She's totally fine with that. She completely adores her dad and we all work together to find ways for them to bond and have a fantastic relationship in their own special way.

My mother is not exactly in the "toxic" people group either, but she's definitely different from us. She's a heavy smoker and smokes outside quite a lot when she comes over. She's also super duper Christian and spends hours every day reading her Bible. DH and I are not Christian and we don't raise DD Christian, but my mom likes to sit and read her stories out of the Bible. DD sees her Mimi smoking and we have talked about it a lot and she knows that smoking is bad and that we shouldn't do it, but that doesn't mean she shouldn't ever see someone smoking. That's just part of life and growing up in the world. Some people smoke and we talk about how it's a bad decision. I have also asked my mom to sit down with DD and explain to her why she smokes (that she made a bad decision when she was younger and now she has an addiction) and that she's sorry she does it (I don't make her say this, she actually is sorry that she smokes) and she talks about bad decisions and how no one is perfect, but we try our best.

We also talk about my mother's religion. I don't forbid my mother to teach her because I think everyone should choose what they want to believe, but I do talk to DD about how Mimi is Christian, but not everyone is and that opens us up to discussion of all kinds of beliefs. I want DD to know that everyone is different and by being around people that are different, even if we don't agree with those differences, she learns to understand the world around her and accept others, no matter how different or even imperfect they may be. It's okay to be Christian, but it's okay to be other things, too. She doesn't necessarily have to believe what her grandmother believes. Everyone's beliefs are good and valid.

I have a friend that comes over sometimes. She is an alcoholic and her husband is abusive. She won't accept any kind of help but will sometimes show up with a bottle of wine and cry to me or talk to me for hours while she gets drunk and I keep her there until she's sober again. I don't feel that my daughter looks at this woman and sees her as a role model. I have explained to her that I love my friend, even if she is sometimes not good to herself and I hope that she doesn't see the way my friend drinks and takes abuse. I hope that what she sees is her mom's arm around that friend accepting her and offering any kind of support and help she can. She can see that I make good decisions and that I try to do what I can for those I love, even if they aren't perfect.

If I were in your shoes, I would explain to the kids that "we love Grandma and Grandma loves us, but Grandma doesn't always do what she says she will do. It's okay to enjoy spending time with Grandma, but remember that just because she says she wants to do something,  doesn't mean that she will." And, of course, keep from telling them her plans for now if she doesn't share those plans with the kids directly. I wouldn't want to cut someone out that meant well, even if they had flaws. I see it more as a lesson of acceptance and love of others. If the kids decide that they don't want Grandma around because she doesn't always keep her promises, then you can tell her that.

But that's just what I would do. I in no way imply that my decisions are the right ones! I just try to uphold my own values for my kiddo.

Toxic people aren't just different, they're really hurtful. Your examples are not of toxic people. My alcoholic dad who flies into violent drunken rages is a toxic person. My mom who comments on how even modestly dressed and even very young girls look like whorish sluts all the time is a toxic person. I don't only allow my kids to be around "perfect" people, whoever those are, but I do seriously limit if not completely eliminate access to damaging people.

[mamazee]

Oh, wait, I didn't answer the OP. My kids see my parents maybe once or twice a year, for short supervised visits. If anyone gets mean, we immediately leave. We always go to where they are so we can bail if necessary. I don't let them in my house because I don't want to be in a position where I have to call the police to get them to leave.

[amberskyfire]

Sorry,  Mittsy, I didn't read your post (or any of the others above, actually.) I was just chiming in.

I didn't mean specifically "toxic" people (and I don't particularly consider the PP's mother "toxic" to the grandkids, but I don't fully know her situation. It might be a lot worse than it sounds.)

I didn't intend from my post that people with special needs are "toxic." I thought I had come across the way I wanted to - that I strive to allow ALL TYPES of people around DD, including the "toxic" type so that she understands differences and can learn to deal with different types of family and friend situations. And unfortunately, yes, most moms that I have spoken to about my husband do consider him "toxic" and I have been told by so many to divorce him which is hurtful and horrible. Many mothers do consider my husband toxic because he doesn't have fatherly qualities. He doesn't hug or say he loves DD. He's quick to anger and throws tantrums (he doesn't hurt anyone). He can say and do things that seem hurtful. He doesn't hug. He doesn't say anything positive to DD. He's visibly there, but not emotionally. If he didn't have Aspergers, people would call that a bad situation. To me, he's just different.

I would never allow anyone harmful or abusive around DD. We don't let those kinds of people into our lives. But to me, someone who doesn't do what they say they will isn't "toxic." They have a character flaw, just like all of the rest of us. I have a friend who is a compulsive liar. Nothing she says is true, but I know that and even though I understand that, I love her very much and we get along great. I just don't take anything she says to heart. A lot of people would consider her "toxic." I call her "different."

But it's up to the PP, not me to decide whether her mother is harmful or toxic to her kids. Since she's in the situation,  it's difficult for me to say how much the grandmother's actions are having an effect on the family. She could be a much more hurtful person that the PP makes it seem. But yeah, I wouldn't consider that toxic. I don't know many people who don't have at least one quality that would make them seem "toxic" to some parents. Chain smokers, a family member who is an addict, another who is a recovered addict, a friend that smokes marijuana - I don't allow these actions around my children, but since these people do not do these things in front of my daughter and have shown us love and a desire to be a part of our family, I allow them in, however tentatively.

Also, it would matter to me that my kids know their grandmother while she was still alive, however imperfect she might be. Is it something you'd regret if she passed away? Would you regret not letting your kids spend more time with her? My grandpa was severely abusive but instead of cutting him out of the family, my father let me spend a couple of weeks in summer with my grandpa (of course, making sure he wasn't being abusive with me, which he wasn't). There were times when my grandpa was a real ass to me. Not abusive, but definitely in the realm of total jerk. Do I wish I had never known him? Never. He passed away last year and I have a lot of great memories from the good times I did spend with him and I'm grateful to have known him.

Now, I have a cousin I was very close to growing up and when he was an adult, he molested a child. He has been so far outed from our family that we have completely disowned him and pretty much all knowledge of him. If anyone could harm my child in any way including driving dangerously with my child in the car, drunkenness or drug use around my child or any kind of abusive language, they're out. I don't put up with things like that and I make sure my daughter knows she needs to always avoid people like that as well. I hope my actions speak to her as loud as my words.

Kids are bright. They can learn early on how people are and whether it's worth being around that person or if it's best to move on to bigger and better things. If I raise my kids to have a good moral compass, that's going to help them a lot more than keeping away from everyone with a flaw.

Edited by amberskyfire - 8/25/11 at 2:19pm

[NiteNicole]

My mom LOVES the attention and approval she gets when she MAKES plans, but she hardly ever follows through on them.  She also doesn't like to deal with the fall out of telling you she's not going to do what she said, so she will just avoid phone calls and lie about it right up to the last minute.

I never tell my DD that Nana says she's going to do anything, and I have asked my mom not to make plans with DD.  I started by saying oh, she's so little, she doesn't understand when plans change and then I eventually said look, I'm not going to let you disappoint her because your mouth is writing checks your ass has no intention of cashing.  Sad but true.  It is my job to protect my daughter, it is not my job to coddle my mother and let her live in some kind of fantasy land where she spouts nonsense and never follows up.  You don't have to be as harsh, but my suggestion is that you have a talk with your mother and lay out for her just how many times she's let your kids down and then tell her you don't want her making plans anymore. You'll be happy to see her when she comes, but DO NOT set your child up for disappointment.

[Evelynmia'smom]

Thanks everyone for your responses. Nite Nicole...thank you for your response, your mother sounds very much like mine. 

I have so many issues with my mother and there isn't enough time to write them all down. My main concerns with her around my children are her grandiose promises of gifts, trips, breaking plans, making comments about weight/looks (once made a comment about how my dd was "chubby") emphasis on beauty etc. she is also pretty careless (gives food burning hot off the stove). I feel so uncomfortable around her and it is relatively painful when she is visiting with my kids and me. Even though she is unreliable she will put up a fight if I try to deny her access to my kids. I'm not sure yet whether I want to totally keep her from them, but I would like to set up some boundaries. 

[amberskyfire]

I would definitely set up boundaries. If it were me, I would make sure I was always present when she visited and I'd be quick to correct her in front of my children. It's important that they see you standing up for them in front of her so that they know it's wrong, but you can do it without really hurting anyone's feelings. These gray area decisions are so hard, but I know you are a wise mama and whatever you decide will be what's best for your family.