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Talk to me about early college - Page 3

post #41 of 58

OTMomma, do look into TJ. I think my nephew had a really great experience. It is pretty rigorous and there is an admissions process so I think your dd might appreciate that. All the kids who are there are by definition going to be bright kids who got in, so you don't have the traditional high school experience where some kids are just coasting along wasting time. The kids at TJ are motivated — I'm sure there must be some who are pushed by their parents, but they are still bright or they wouldn't be there. From my nephew's description there are some really seriously academically focused kids, some of whom would meet the qualifications for PG, I imagine. They do have some of the traditional high school trappings, athletics, etc, which may or may not interest your dd. It's definitely worth checking out, I think, and see if it would work for your dd.

post #42 of 58

my understanding of the middle college program in Virginia is that it is not intended for traditionally gifted students--it is intended as a way to increase college access for under-represented students, providing them with high school level support in community college courses. i took courses at a Virginia community college as a senior in high school, and they were far and away the easiest classes I took as a high school student. Similarly, the person I knew who transferred to UVA from the Mary Baldwin PEG program was not truly prepared for the rigor of the coursework at UVA.

 

I think TJ would be an excellent option for your child--it is extremely rigorous and provides excellent preparation for incredibly rigorous college experiences.

post #43 of 58

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mtiger View Post

One thing to bear in mind wrt "middle college" programs run in conjunction with a community college - those credits may or may not be accepted elsewhere. So make sure to look into that as it could be quite frustrating for someone to take the classes with the impression that they can transfer their earned credits, to find out that the college/university they've chosen won't accept them.


I participated in the dual credit program through a major private university while in high school, starting when I was a sophomore.  In a class of about 400, about 30 kids took these classes to carrying degrees.  My parents paid a reduced tuition each semester, and I ended up graduating with over 30 credits.  But, it ended up being kind of a mess because neither the small liberal arts college nor the top 25 university I attended would accept them (yet they still had to see them, and the credits somehow counted towards my status, so I never was a freshman . This was 7 years ago.)  So the money was wasted.  If I could do it all over again I would still take the classes but not pay for the credit.  This was an option.  Because, I rather much enjoyed the course load and was actually more challenged those last few years of high school than I ever was in college.

 

post #44 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by kylie1 View Post

Yes, unfortunately. They don't have much help for any student above an intellectual age of 13, and she's a few years above that...they have all the aides in an attempt to help her through. On top of being PG she's also 2E and barely socializes (another reason why I'm hesitant about early university) and so the aides also have to help her with making friends with the other children...It's succeeded very well in scaring other children away from her.

 

Unless I want to drive for ten hours, this is the best I can get.
 



 


An intellectual age of 13 is only 8th grade. Surely there are resources for over-13s closer than ten hours drive. I have an 8-year-old and I'm with Roar... It's been relatively simple for me, an ordinary adult, even one with a bunch of other kids also needing my time, to meet her needs in a homeschooling environment. I have no idea what intellectual age my dd is, but she seems very advanced to me, easily taking in Teaching Company college intro to science lectures, sauntering through 7th and 8th grade materials in a variety of subject areas with little effort. Three full-time aids boggles my mind.

Miranda
post #45 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roar View Post




Actually AP credits are more consistantly and widely accepted even at highly selective colleges. At least you can check ahead of time and have a pretty good guess if the credits will be accepted. I'm not saying that I agree they should be more widely accepted but if you investigate the policies at a lot of schools that will likely be the case. Ultimately though, I don't think credits should be the real consideration in making these choices for a younger student - it should be about what will keep the student best engaged and challenged.

 

 

 


That's changing pretty quickly. We always know at least 10 seniors heading off to college a year and they've been have lots of issues with AP's (and these are kids that take a lot of them.) Some colleges will accept them as a way to get out of lower level classes but will not give you actual units for them. Some put a cap on how many they will accept. We've known kids go to prominent schools and have half their units not accepted. AP's are a heck of a lot of paper work... far more than I ever experienced in college. Kids these days take them for the weighted grades but man, it's such a bummer to do all that work and not get what you need from them in college.

 

post #46 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by kylie1 View Post

Yes, unfortunately. They don't have much help for any student above an intellectual age of 13, and she's a few years above that...they have all the aides in an attempt to help her through. On top of being PG she's also 2E and barely socializes (another reason why I'm hesitant about early university) and so the aides also have to help her with making friends with the other children...It's succeeded very well in scaring other children away from her.

 

Unless I want to drive for ten hours, this is the best I can get.
 



 


My first reactions is that of course hovering aides are going to scare away the other kids! Secondly, what are these aides actually doing with her? I guess I question the appropriateness of work given to a child if she needs 3 aides to help her through it. It's not that I expect gifted children to learn everything with no instruction but if the work can't be completed with a decent level of independance then it's work that can wait in my book. Maybe she should be accelerating broad as opposed to up? Maybe she could spend this time focusing on areas of passion, doing her own research and extensive reading in a none structured enviroment. At 5, my DD could spend hours and hours studying Renoir and ancient Egypt. She'd read everything she could get her hands on whether it was a child's book or a college thesis on these subjects. This was work she could do on her own and often did at home and within the classroom. Just seems counterproductive for a little one to be surrounded by aides and expected to make any sort of connection to the kids around her or develop a self-reliance.

 


Edited by whatsnextmom - 9/9/11 at 8:58am
post #47 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by whatsnextmom View Post




That's changing pretty quickly. We always know at least 10 seniors heading off to college a year and they've been have lots of issues with AP's (and these are kids that take a lot of them.) Some colleges will accept them as a way to get out of lower level classes but will not give you actual units for them. Some put a cap on how many they will accept. We've known kids go to prominent schools and have half their units not accepted. AP's are a heck of a lot of paper work... far more than I ever experienced in college. Kids these days take them for the weighted grades but man, it's such a bummer to do all that work and not get what you need from them in college.

 


I think the problem is not with APs but how they have been presented to students. APs are widely accepted but it has never been the case that it is universal or that it is unlimited at all schools. It doesn't mean that APs are pointless. They are a way for students to get more challenging work in high school and they are an important part of demonstrating college readiness for many students and they are a way for many students to get credit or appropriate placement. ANd, as I said in my original post they are MUCH MORE widely accepted than community college credits.

 

I don't really understand the "heck of a lot of paperwork" part. The scores are sent directly from College Board to the colleges. The college policies for accepting credits are typically spelled out pretty clearly on their websites.

 

post #48 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roar View Post




I think the problem is not with APs but how they have been presented to students. APs are widely accepted but it has never been the case that it is universal or that it is unlimited at all schools. It doesn't mean that APs are pointless. They are a way for students to get more challenging work in high school and they are an important part of demonstrating college readiness for many students and they are a way for many students to get credit or appropriate placement. ANd, as I said in my original post they are MUCH MORE widely accepted than community college credits.

 

I don't really understand the "heck of a lot of paperwork" part. The scores are sent directly from College Board to the colleges. The college policies for accepting credits are typically spelled out pretty clearly on their websites.

 


I mean the AP courses themselves are a lot of pointless paperwork. They needlessly bog down kids with work when it's not neccessary to absorb the needed material. Certainly, none of my actual college courses involved the work load my high schooler is dealing with right now. In college, you went to lectures and then it was up to you to learn the material in whatever way you needed to do it. There were assignments in certain classes but I certainly didn't have something that had to be turned in every single day. DD's a girl that could just read the material and get it. Instead, she pretty much has a 3 page essay to write every night for one single class... when exactly does she write the 3 page essays she has to write for the other classes? We're looking at CC classes as a way for her to get the appropriate level of material along with actually being expected to learn as a college student.... not the high material with the micro-managing and heavy work load a high school AP student gets.

 

I'm just at that stage where I'm starting to wonder if all the AP and acceleration stuff is worth it. I don't regret accelerating DD a full grade. She needed it and it's been the best thing for her. I'm not talking about that at all. It's just that she takes all these accelerated high school courses that are challenging not in the material but in the buckets of work she has to plow through. Our local schools have all these "pre-reqs" for AP courses  too and so she has to take these advanced (work heavy) courses that don't even give her a weighted grade just so she can take an AP for that weighted grade later. I'm all for challenge but why challenge that isn't TAKING you anywhere. Work for the sake of work is just stupid if it means nothing. 

 

I took AP's in high school but they were nothing like what AP's look like now. Even my university professor friends find them ridiculous and often call new college students "crispies" as the best and brightest often show up already burned out. The high school we're looking at for DS doesn't believe in AP's and yet it's always makes the list for top high schools in the states and sends it's students to all the top universities. The kids we know in that school are much more balanced... it's just takes an act of god to get your lottery number picked lol.

 

As to community college credits, I'll conceed that it may differ from state to state. In California, we have an excellent CC program. The State and UC schools have agreements in place and are quite transparent about what will transfer and what won't. The CC's do a pretty good job laying that out for prospective students. Our friends who've gone the middle college route were very well counselled. Most were able to cut a full year of college some even 2 years. Then again, what's the hurry.... to enter the work force earlier? Sigh....

 

post #49 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by whatsnextmom View Post
 Even my university professor friends find them ridiculous and often call new college students "crispies" as the best and brightest often show up already burned out. The high school we're looking at for DS doesn't believe in AP's and yet it's always makes the list for top high schools in the states and sends it's students to all the top universities. The kids we know in that school are much more balanced... it's just takes an act of god to get your lottery number picked lol.

 

As to community college credits, I'll conceed that it may differ from state to state. In California, we have an excellent CC program. The State and UC schools have agreements in place and are quite transparent about what will transfer and what won't. The CC's do a pretty good job laying that out for prospective students. Our friends who've gone the middle college route were very well counselled. Most were able to cut a full year of college some even 2 years. Then again, what's the hurry.... to enter the work force earlier? Sigh....

 


I liked your whole post.

 

My kids school, which I love and believe that most of this thread would be irrelevant if more cities had a school like it, doesn't do AP courses. They see them as counter to the philosophy of the school.

 

We've moved around for DH job and I sometimes take CC courses for fun, and they vary WIDELY. Some are solid ways to learn new things, and some are just there so people can get college credit.

 

post #50 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by whatsnextmom View Post


Even my university professor friends find them ridiculous and often call new college students "crispies" as the best and brightest often show up already burned out. The high school we're looking at for DS doesn't believe in AP's and yet it's always makes the list for top high schools in the states and sends it's students to all the top universities. The kids we know in that school are much more balanced... it's just takes an act of god to get your lottery number picked lol.

 

As to community college credits, I'll conceed that it may differ from state to state. In California, we have an excellent CC program. The State and UC schools have agreements in place and are quite transparent about what will transfer and what won't. The CC's do a pretty good job laying that out for prospective students. Our friends who've gone the middle college route were very well counselled. Most were able to cut a full year of college some even 2 years. Then again, what's the hurry.... to enter the work force earlier? Sigh....

 


I agree APs can really be overdone and it really depends on the student and the school what that experience is like. The thing with selective college admissions is that if your school doesn't offer the APs it is okay that you didn't take them. If they do and you don't take them, that's a different story as the process expects students to have taken on challenges. I really don't think it is as simple as to say APs are bad for gifted kids or they are good for gifted kids. They can be really rough for kids who aren't good at testing or have executive functioning challenges or immaturity. And, they can be frustrating to some kids who are broad thinkers. But, there are kids, including a lot of gifted kids, who find they add challenge to high school that they find to be enjoyable.

 

The issue with transferring community college credits is more one for students aiming for highly selective out of state colleges. Yes, within states there are articulation agreements that make that process simple. For students who are looking at out of state selective colleges, they are often going to find that they will be more likely to get credit or placement with APs than they will with cc credits. Of course one of the issues you are also dealing with with cc in California is that it can be terribly hard for students to get into the courses they want to.

 

"What's the hurry?" is one of my pet peeves. It assumes that students are rushing when in fact students may have been ready for college years before they started even if they are going early. As far as middle college programs part of the big appeal for a lot of families is that it can reflect a gigantic reduction in the cost of college. With where our economy is and and where college costs are, it makes perfect sense that it is appealing.

 

post #51 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roar View Post
"What's the hurry?" is one of my pet peeves. It assumes that students are rushing when in fact students may have been ready for college years before they started even if they are going early.

 


 

I know that for some kids starting college early and taking 30 credits of AP courses and all that is the best path, but what I see in my upper middle class peers is just competitive parenting. The high school to college transition is like the race in Alice in Wonderland -- every one is racing, but no one knows when the race will be over or how to figure out who won. It's a social trend that I think it is a little crazed. I think the pressure on *many* high school students is unreasonable and unhelpful to them long term.

 

I know these things are right for *some* kids, but there is such a push for them that I think that many kids are just on a crazy track without anyone really sitting down to figure out what is in that specific teen's best interest. I think these are decisions to be made carefully and mindfully rather than assuming that sooner is better, that more is better.

 

I'm not talking about anyone on this board, but what I see in my neighbors and my DH's colleagues. Because what I see is that it's no longer a tiny percentage of truly exceptional teens doing college work before 18, but that it is expected of normal, bright students to be considered hard working and successful.

post #52 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roar View Post




I agree APs can really be overdone and it really depends on the student and the school what that experience is like. The thing with selective college admissions is that if your school doesn't offer the APs it is okay that you didn't take them. If they do and you don't take them, that's a different story as the process expects students to have taken on challenges. I really don't think it is as simple as to say APs are bad for gifted kids or they are good for gifted kids. They can be really rough for kids who aren't good at testing or have executive functioning challenges or immaturity. And, they can be frustrating to some kids who are broad thinkers. But, there are kids, including a lot of gifted kids, who find they add challenge to high school that they find to be enjoyable.

 

The issue with transferring community college credits is more one for students aiming for highly selective out of state colleges. Yes, within states there are articulation agreements that make that process simple. For students who are looking at out of state selective colleges, they are often going to find that they will be more likely to get credit or placement with APs than they will with cc credits. Of course one of the issues you are also dealing with with cc in California is that it can be terribly hard for students to get into the courses they want to.

 

"What's the hurry?" is one of my pet peeves. It assumes that students are rushing when in fact students may have been ready for college years before they started even if they are going early. As far as middle college programs part of the big appeal for a lot of families is that it can reflect a gigantic reduction in the cost of college. With where our economy is and and where college costs are, it makes perfect sense that it is appealing.

 


I think we'll just have to accept that our experiences have been different. We've known plenty of kids off to "highly selective out of state" universities like Harvard, Stanford, NYU with CC credits and had no issues just as the kids we know off to UCLA, UCSD and Berkeley which aren't much easier to get into. It's just not been our experience. As to not getting your courses at a CC, depends on which one you are going to. Some are more impacted than others. 

 

It's natural for parents of gifted parents to get ruffled when they hear "what's the hurry" but it really is something we should all contemplate at different stages our children are in. For us, there were moments to accelerate and moments to hold back.

post #53 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by whatsnextmom View Post




I think we'll just have to accept that our experiences have been different. We've known plenty of kids off to "highly selective out of state" universities like Harvard, Stanford, NYU with CC credits and had no issues just as the kids we know off to UCLA, UCSD and Berkeley which aren't much easier to get into. It's just not been our experience. As to not getting your courses at a CC, depends on which one you are going to. Some are more impacted than others. 

 

It's natural for parents of gifted parents to get ruffled when they hear "what's the hurry" but it really is something we should all contemplate at different stages our children are in. For us, there were moments to accelerate and moments to hold back.


If you are saying the kids entered in state and had their credits recognized - yes, that makes perfect sense as there are clear articulation agreements that spell out how courses will transfer. But, sorry I do not think it is accurate to say that highly selective colleges out of state will give freshman students credit for cc courses they took under dual enrollment. That is in fact against the states policies of most of those institutions. If gifted high school students are looking to highly selective out of state colleges they are going to be much more likely to get credit from APs than from CC courses. (sorry about the weird formatting, I'm cutting and pasting from their websites.)

 

NYU: http://www.nyu.edu/admissions/undergraduate-admissions/applying-for-admission/transfer-applicants/transfer-credit.html

"NYU awards credit for the College Board Advances Placement (AP) examinations for scores of 4 and 5 on most examinations. ...

If you completed college courses while in high school (either during the summer or during the school year), we generally grant credit if you received a grade of "C" or better in the courses, and if the courses are similar to courses offered at NYU (and if the courses did not also satisfy high school graduation requirements)"

 

Harvard: Uses AP and IB tests for placement and for credit. They do not take credits taken by high school students at other colleges:  "Credit toward the bachelor’s degree for new students not admitted as transfer students is offered only on the basis of AP or IB examinations (or other reviewed international credentials).The College does not grant credit toward a Harvard degree for courses taken at other universities prior to matriculation. Therefore, students wishing to be eligible for Advanced Standing are advised to sit for the AP examinations in fields they have already studied, whether or not they participated in a formal AP course in secondary school." http://apo.fas.harvard.edu/icb/icb.do?keyword=k73580&pageid=icb.page388448&pageContentId=icb.pagecontent823379&view=view.do&viewParam_name=asgeninfo.html#a_icb_pagecontent823379_a_icb_pagecontent825552_summary

 

My objection to "what's the hurry?" is that it doesn't reflect a good understanding that gifted kids are so very different from each other. It assumes that there is a hurry if a student is doing something faster. In reality one kids hurry is another kids moving at snail's pace.

 

post #54 of 58

I picked up a book this week and it's relevant to this topic:

 

What High schools Don't Tell You: 300+ Secrets to Make your Kid Irresistible to Colleges by Senior Year

by Elizabeth Wissner-Gross
 

This book is a little extreme, as it is about getting into Ivy League schools, and some of the ideas are prohibitively expensive  for our family, but reading about what kids who get into MIT, Havard, etc do during highschool to prepare is eye opening (and a little scary).

 

I think the book would make a good read for a child who eventually wants a PhD in mathematics. Reading about some of the things available, and what some of her intellectual peers will be doing with their highschool years could help in making a better plan for her.

 

On the community college VS AP credit debate, the book is more focused on getting into top schools and then being successful once there, rather than getting "credit" for previous work. It does say that universities expect top students to take the most rigorous track available at their school, so taking all the AP credits available is better than not (even though attending a school wither few AP courses as options isn't counted against the student). As far as community colleges, the books says that are useful for the information learned and what is done with it -- taking a college chemistry class and then using what is learned to create an outstanding experiment that wins prizes is an excellent use of time. The courses look good on the application to college. It says to avoid classes designed for older students as remediation.

 

I got the feeling that top universities expect highschoolers to be doing basic college level work one way or another before college. It was almost like that was a given -- the question is more about how to plan smart and make the most of what is being done.

 

Some colleges and programs are uber competitive, and if you gifted child is truly one of the brightest at what they do, then I would make sense to me to attempt to get them into some of the top programs. I honestly think the better use of time for profoundly gifted students would be making sure they build the track record to get into the best programs, not attempting to get college out of the way. AP and community college can be part of getting into the right program.

 

Disclaimer == Although I think we may go for a very watered down version of some of the ideas in this book, I honestly think if we tried it full stop, my kids would have nervous breakdowns. I don't want anyone to pick up this book and think "this is what Linda on the move" does with her kids! I read it and think "wow, my kids are gifted, but some kids are a lot MORE gifted!"

 

post #55 of 58

Linda - that was my feeling about the book too. There may be a few good ideas of opportunities or programs, but overall the book calls for a kind of intense grooming and manipulation of kids that could push many of them to severe burn out to the point where they may not get a lot out of college. My other concern with this approach is that kids can end up so packaged that they all look like variations of some predetermined plan. It can come across as really fake, because in many cases it is. I think kids are better served by doing what genuinely interests and challenges them rather than focusing all of their energy on creating a story that they can sell in their college applications.

 

 

post #56 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roar View Post

Linda - that was my feeling about the book too. There may be a few good ideas of opportunities or programs, but overall the book calls for a kind of intense grooming and manipulation of kids that could push many of them to severe burn out to the point where they may not get a lot out of college. My other concern with this approach is that kids can end up so packaged that they all look like variations of some predetermined plan. It can come across as really fake, because in many cases it is. I think kids are better served by doing what genuinely interests and challenges them rather than focusing all of their energy on creating a story that they can sell in their college applications.

 

 


I'm glad to hear that, because the book freaked me out a bit and I wondered if it is related to our family being laid back!

 

When I glanced through it at the store, I read a couple of pages about making the most of summers, which I really agreed with and wanted more input on. But then I got the book home and read about the kinds of programs it makes it sound like kids need -- which we can't afford and might freak my kids out anyway, and started to wonder if it's just us.

 

I know you have a different approach with your kids than I have with mine, so your opinion on this book is VERY helpful to me thumb.gif

 

I think there is a balance between having goals and using time well, and getting so hung up on getting into the right university that you don't really live for the 4 years of high school. I'm aiming for a middle ground. I want my kids to live in the present, but I don't want them to graduate and then say "Oh sh&t! Now what?"

 

I wanted to bring it up though, because I think a lot of homeschoolers don't realize what some kids are doing in highschool. They see that they are ahead of the pack, but they aren't comparing their child to the kids they will actually be taking classes with at university.

 

post #57 of 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by Linda on the move View Post

I'm glad to hear that, because the book freaked me out a bit and I wondered if it is related to our family being laid back!

 



No, it is actually just a freaky over the top book. It should come packaged with Valium.

 

 

post #58 of 58

Another option is to find a high school with a lot of AP and/or concurrent enrollment courses.  Then she can gain college credit while still remaining in high school.

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