Are doctors ignorant to the ingredients in vaccines???

[adoremybabe]

We have had to switch family doctors and durring our appointments today I gave the doctor my brief explanation as to why we choose not to vaccinate. One of my points included the fact that rubella contains human diploid cells obtains from aborted babies. Her response was, "Yeah, I don't think so."

Seriously, that info is all over the place...... it must be a lie

[WildKingdom]

Your doctor is not ignorant.  She's correct.  The rubella vaccine does not contain diploid cells from aborted babies.  The vaccine virus is grown on a culture mediums that contains diploid cells.  The vaccine doesn't actually contain any.

[cappuccinosmom]

And....these cells are artificially lab-produced 4+ decades after the original cells were obtained.  Vax companies are not gathering new tissue from and endless supply of newly aborted babies.  That is unfortunately sometimes the way this issue is presented (and similarly the "Gag! They're putting embryonic cells in your Doritos!!!!" thing I was seeing going around a while  back).

The origins of these cells are a valid ethical consideration.  My parents are Catholic doctors and they struggled with it, and they understand the anti-vax position based on that ethical consideration.  But it's very important to be sure that you're making this decision based on actual facts, and not the hyper-emotional but sometimes slightly off arguments that are all over the place.

[ma2two]

The MMR vaccine is made using WI-38 and RA 27/3 from human fetuses aborted in the 1960's. But the package insert does not indicate that there is any remaining in the final product. http://www.fda.gov/downloads/BiologicsBloodVaccines/Vaccines/ApprovedProducts/UCM123789.pdf

The chickenpox vaccine and hepatitis A vaccines do actually contain "residual components of MRC-5 cells including DNA and protein."

http://www.fda.gov/downloads/BiologicsBloodVaccines/Vaccines/ApprovedProducts/UCM142813.pdf

http://www.fda.gov/downloads/BiologicsBloodVaccines/Vaccines/ApprovedProducts/UCM224555.pdf

The Pentacel vaccine (DTaP/polio/hib) used to indicate in the package insert that residual cellular components from MRC-5 were in the vaccine, but in the July 2011 package insert, they took out that language. Pentacel is still made with MRC-5, and I doubt they changed the vaccine to completely remove any residual MRC-5 cellular components.

Here is info about MRC-5.

http://www.viromed.com/services/product/mrc5.htm

[1love4ever]

I think that Drs are usually ignorant to the ingredients.  My Dr thought I was wrong when I mentioned high levels of aluminum in vaccines.  IDK if she ever looked it up, but she gave me a little laugh after I told her my reasons not to vax.

[kathymuggle]

Originally Posted by WildKingdom 

Your doctor is not ignorant.  She's correct.  The rubella vaccine does not contain diploid cells from aborted babies.  The vaccine virus is grown on a culture mediums that contains diploid cells.  The vaccine doesn't actually contain any.

If you are correct (and I will assume you are) the doctor still erred in not clarifying it for her.

"yeah, I don't think so" implies there is no connection - when there is one.

Saying "yeah, I don't think so"  implies:

-the doctor is ignorant on the subject of diploid cells     and/or

-the doctor did not want to talk about the issue, so dismissed it without trying to clarify things.  This is her right, I suppose, but is likely to leave the patient thinking the doctor is ignorant on the subject - not something they want to project, yk?

In any case, I would not be happy with the docs response.

[kathymuggle]

To answer the question:

I have had several conversations with doctors over the years on vax.  As a general rule, I have found them somewhat ignorant on the topic.  There was one exception (I think it was an interest of hers for various reasons) 

To a degree I do not expect them to be experts on vaccines - I doubt they study it in school very long  (much like nutrition), and in the case of my doctors (who were GPs) - it is only a tiny part of their job.  There are organisations they trust who make guidelines.  Moreover, they obviously do not have to be able to convincingly argue for vaxxing as the vax rate is over 90% in most places without doctors and patients having to hash it out. 

While doctors may not feel they have to be highly informed on the topic, I don't have to vax my child if I have reservations.  A doctors inabilty to discuss those reservations is not helpful.  

[lisamarie1081]

I have read about the aborted fetus ingredients, but only in one of the form letters suggested to help me exempt in PA based on religion. 

I can see the ethical debate if all that is true. 

But what about the CHEMICALS used in the packaging and delivery of these cells?!  I used to be a chemist and I can tell you that the organic solvents in these vaccines have a similar structure and, therefore, similar reactivity to those found in oil-based paints and stains that I'm urged not to be using or breathing while pregnant.  They are some of the same compounds that the EPA routinely tests carpet fibers and new car interiors for because it can be so harmful to us when inhaled.  BUT, sure!  Go ahead and inject them in relatively large amounts (compared to my breathing) directly into the blood of my tiny little baby! 

I don't get it ...

This is my first baby, and I want to tell them that I'm just not a preventative healtcare kind of person.  I'm fighting that battle during my pregnancy, though, and just changed doctors because of it.  It doesn't go over well.  I'm not looking forward to it all.

I believe that if my child contracts something (and lets remember that they don't have a vaccine for EVERYTHING our kids can contract), his or her immune system has been designed to react to combat it.  If he/she has trouble doing that, I'd seek an alternative intervention like herbs, oils, etc. from a naturopath.  If all that fails, I'd do medicine.  That's how little faith I have in the system.  AND, I almost contributed to it!  I have an MS in chemistry because I wanted to develop drugs .... HA!  I thank God everyday that I lived the life I have and was exposed to these alternatives.  I ended up changing my whole career so that I didn't support that cause.  I met my husband because of it.  I'm hardly going to throw all of that experience away ...

If only I could explain that to them and have them care ....

[1love4ever]

Originally Posted by lisamarie1081 

I have read about the aborted fetus ingredients, but only in one of the form letters suggested to help me exempt in PA based on religion. 

I can see the ethical debate if all that is true. 

But what about the CHEMICALS used in the packaging and delivery of these cells?!  I used to be a chemist and I can tell you that the organic solvents in these vaccines have a similar structure and, therefore, similar reactivity to those found in oil-based paints and stains that I'm urged not to be using or breathing while pregnant.  They are some of the same compounds that the EPA routinely tests carpet fibers and new car interiors for because it can be so harmful to us when inhaled.  BUT, sure!  Go ahead and inject them in relatively large amounts (compared to my breathing) directly into the blood of my tiny little baby! 

I don't get it ...

This is my first baby, and I want to tell them that I'm just not a preventative healtcare kind of person.  I'm fighting that battle during my pregnancy, though, and just changed doctors because of it.  It doesn't go over well.  I'm not looking forward to it all.

I believe that if my child contracts something (and lets remember that they don't have a vaccine for EVERYTHING our kids can contract), his or her immune system has been designed to react to combat it.  If he/she has trouble doing that, I'd seek an alternative intervention like herbs, oils, etc. from a naturopath.  If all that fails, I'd do medicine.  That's how little faith I have in the system.  AND, I almost contributed to it!  I have an MS in chemistry because I wanted to develop drugs .... HA!  I thank God everyday that I lived the life I have and was exposed to these alternatives.  I ended up changing my whole career so that I didn't support that cause.  I met my husband because of it.  I'm hardly going to throw all of that experience away ...

If only I could explain that to them and have them care ....

The chemicals really concern me too!!  I remembered after posting what i posted last, about the time I took DD to the public health NP for a well child visit after we lost health insurance coverage.  It was for her 1yr, and I had already decided not to vaccinate.  Of course as soon as the NP came in and did her exam, she said OK time for her shots, and I said that I have chosen not to vaccinate.  She looked at me like I had 3 heads and asked why.  One of the things that I mentioned(other than the chemicals) is the fact that aborted fetal cells as well as other animal cells(such as kidney and brain cells) are used to make them, and she said "Ha, well I've never heard that before!"

Anyway, I also wanted to say that I wonder the things that you mentioned as well- why do they allow this crap in vaccines, but it is so controlled(or at least tested for) in other aspects of our lives? 

I too was in the medical field, I was going to be a nurse.  I saw so many injustices being done that my concience could not handle it, and I realized I could not go through my life having a career where i injected people and exposed people to things that I was so opposed to, especially knowing that they know no better.  I would be the nurse that would be saying "are you sure you want me to give your child this vaccine?  Are you not aware of how dangerous they are!?  Have you done your research?  Do you know that it contains bla bla bla bla!?"  Lol, I would be fired for sure.

I had actually started out wanting to be a labor and delivery nurse, but after the birth of my first child in a hospital I realized I could never support and engage in the routine practices that go on in hospital delivery rooms.  It would break my heart every day to see mothers who are so uninformed and feel that they have no other choices but this, that this is normal!!  And to see newborns being treated like they dont even exist, and given shots, antibiotics, being circumcised, etc.  No way!  I am not supporting this ridiculousness!

I think it is so awesome that you have the educational background that you do, and you can talk to Drs from that knowledge and experiece and argue your points and they might actually listen to you!  With me, I am no one to them, I am stupid.  I have no degree, and I was not in the medical field long enough to know too much, so what I have to say really means nothing and makes no difference.

It is unfortunate you had to switch doctors!  Have you looked into having a midwife instead?  How far along are you?  My MW has never even mentioned vaccination to me, and when I asked her if she gives antibiotic eye drops and vitamin K shots to newborns she said no, but if I want it she would prefer that I go to my pediatrician and get it instead.  Of course I dont want it!  I think its awesome that she does not do those things, because she knows how unbeneficial and even harmful it is so she does not support it:)

I love your story, and its so great the path that you have chosen to take instead, and where it has led you!

[nia82]

I think most docs don't know. When DS was born and I discussed our plans with our ped, he said this vaccine we use has no thimerosal. I said yes it does, read the package insert. He was actually surprised, he had just believed what he was told - that no more childhood vaccines contain it. It was one of those that contains a trace amount, but I am unwilling to use those as there are others available with absolutely none. So far not a single doc I met had actually read package inserts or knew which growth medium was used for what vaccine.

As for the aborted cells discussion - first of all I find the practice horrible, even if "only one" from the 60ies is in use - that doesn't make it right for me. Apart from the ethical concerns using those cells as growth medium, how could makers ensure that there really is not even a single RNA strand of that baby in the vaccine? How is that exactly done, the purification process? Not a single foreign protein will be in the finished product? I yet have to see proof. I also am very worried about animal viruses, prions and proteins in  vaccines. There definitely is contamination going on and we are playing Russian roulette with this (see SV40). I felt a lot safer if a vaccine was made based on tissue samples from the person who will receive it, aka individualized vaccines. That's the only way I would ever consider them "safe". And no funky chemicals either. I always hear but those are miniscule amounts. But those amounts are directly injected into a human's muscle tissue, hence the body has to deal with 100% of it - if you breathe or ingest something, your bodies defenses will be able to get rid of some of it and you won't have to deal with 100% of it (see e.g. aluminum when ingested is not absorbed completely).

[1love4ever]

Originally Posted by nia82 

I think most docs don't know. When DS was born and I discussed our plans with our ped, he said this vaccine we use has no thimerosal. I said yes it does, read the package insert. He was actually surprised, he had just believed what he was told - that no more childhood vaccines contain it. It was one of those that contains a trace amount, but I am unwilling to use those as there are others available with absolutely none. So far not a single doc I met had actually read package inserts or knew which growth medium was used for what vaccine.

As for the aborted cells discussion - first of all I find the practice horrible, even if "only one" from the 60ies is in use - that doesn't make it right for me. Apart from the ethical concerns using those cells as growth medium, how could makers ensure that there really is not even a single RNA strand of that baby in the vaccine? How is that exactly done, the purification process? Not a single foreign protein will be in the finished product? I yet have to see proof. I also am very worried about animal viruses, prions and proteins in  vaccines. There definitely is contamination going on and we are playing Russian roulette with this (see SV40). I felt a lot safer if a vaccine was made based on tissue samples from the person who will receive it, aka individualized vaccines. That's the only way I would ever consider them "safe". And no funky chemicals either. I always hear but those are miniscule amounts. But those amounts are directly injected into a human's muscle tissue, hence the body has to deal with 100% of it - if you breathe or ingest something, your bodies defenses will be able to get rid of some of it and you won't have to deal with 100% of it (see e.g. aluminum when ingested is not absorbed completely).

Excellent points!!

[lisamarie1081]

It's great to hear your story, too.  :)

It's also nice to THINK that I should have some "clout" when talking with these doctors about things because of my background and that I do have some exposure to the "academic" end of things.  Unfortunately, I feel like the entire medical establishment has tunnel vision -- they even reject their own that share our beliefs!  I'm not one to flaunt or brag about my education and I'm woefully lacking confidence when it comes to talking with them about my own care, let alone the baby's once it comes.

Where my background should hold more water is with my husband.  Not sure that's the case either.  "How do I know better than them?" is his response to me most of the time.  The next time we get into it, I plan to respond with "I am the only one who can protect my body (and soon my baby's) ... why shouldn't I?".  He, too, gets confused by the fact that the FDA and CDC exist and make all these recommendations after supposedly proving things to be safe.  Yet, he also snickers at the pharma commercials that list the serious side effects of most drugs that don't seem to be worth the risk (ED drugs, for example).  He also hates the dentist and probably hasn't been there in nearly 5 years ... but I should take the baby to a doctor?

As I stew with it more in my mind, I am leaning heavily toward not even taking the baby to a doctor.  Not sure I can get away with that with my husbad, though.  I used to see a naturopath.  They use different techniques to find the true source of problems (and they are all non-invasive!) and they truly are able to permanantly fix them.  The philosophy is entirely different that that used by doctors and conventional medicine.  I never intend to give my child antibiotics ... so I'll not take it to a doctor for an ear infection or fever.  What's the point of ever even fighting with them over vaccines then, right?! 

I respect the purpose of a doctor -- to help us when we need helping ... I'd go there for a broken bone and allow them to do what they can for me if I was in a tragic accident.  But that's about it.

Good luck!  We all need it ....

[1love4ever]

Why not take your child to a naturopathic pediatrician, or even just a naturopath if that is what your DH wants?  Just a compromise.

A quote that I love:  Former FDA Commissioner Dr Herbert Ley stated: "The thing that bugs me is that people think the FDA is protecting them. It isn't. What the FDA is doing and what the public thinks it's doing are as different as night and day." 

A video that I also like, although it doesnt go into vaccines that much, is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvzDHGLEUyw&feature=watch-now-button&wide=1      Can you get him to watch it?  It might make him doubt the FDA and CDC a little more:)   Although it does not mention some things that I think it should, such as antibiotics being given so frequently!  I also like nvic.org, maybe you have already been on that site.

Another video that is pretty unrelated is The Business of Being Born, it is free to watch on Youtube.  Although it does not mention vaccines, it too may create more doubt in his mind about the current medical system.  I highly recommend watching it, even if that is not your purpose, simply because you are going to have a baby:)  I think it is a must see for any pregnant couple!  It is also for sale on Amazon for around $6.

When are you due?  I am Nov 2!  Very excited to have a great birth experience.  Last time was terrible at the hospital.  My eyes have been opened this time and my views have changed so much.  There are so many things that I wish I would have known and read last time, but thankfully I know more this time.  One of those many things is about vaccines, I received 3 while pregnant last time.  I was nervous about it, but the Dr of course pushed and pushed and assured me how safe they were so I consented.  I also got DD her first 2 or 3 sets of vaccines as a baby:(, with a diff Dr pushing me.  I dont go to well child visits at all anymore.  Still feeling guilty and wondering if she would be any different had she not gotten them.  Not that she has any obvious problems right now, but still.

And I would think that your Dh would consider your educational background, but maybe it does not occur to him?  Maybe mention that you have been around this stuff first hand and you KNOW how bad it is, you have experience and knowledge from your education...

Anyway, good luck to you too!