I'm in tears - DD1 still not grasping numbers

[eastkygal]

I've posted 2 maybe 3 times about this here in the past.  DD1 is still not grasping or remembering her numbers.  She is great with words and I think she counts by memorizing the sounds of the words and the order like a song.  She idenifies written #s 1-10 readily and is getting there with the teens.  However, no matter how many times I tell her 20 is twenty, she cannot recall it.  Same on down the line.  Though she knows to say twenty after nineteen, she doesn't identify 20. or 30 or 40 etc... We have a different sort of curriculum this year, which I think would be great to help her visualize and understand what numbers represent physically.  But, for example the last part of this week was reviewing #4 - counting, writing, identifying.  At the same time you study what 4 represents physically you introduce the written number family of 40 - 49.  With #5 it'll be 50 - 59.  Then, once reaching 9 she'll start with simple addition and move onward. 

I've looked into what sorts of mental blocks she might be having and I'm not finding anything that really fits.  I went to a dyslexia conference and she didn't fit that picture at all, and not dyscalculia either as I talked with the specialist.  The specialist suggested aspberger's autism because of her advanced language skills, but my nephew has aspberger's and she does not display the social behaviors that he has difficulty with despite being high functioning and an otherwise uneffected child. 

I'm almost in tears everyday as I try to review this stuff with her.  She doesn't get any better though some days are better than others, just when I think she has it - it's gone again.  I'm wondering when I should give up.  What is best for her?  I have 2 things I'm thinking of trying.  No TV on school days.  (We do not watch during school, and we do not have cable so she only watches DVDs as it is.)  And, not doing the counting # families and just sticking to the number we are studying at the time, hoping that eventually when she starts adding the 2 and 3 digit numbers she'll know what they are.  Does anyone have any other suggestions?  Our curriculum has all sorts of visual and tactile activities that we are doing, but not with the bigger numbers - just with the number like 4 etc... until you reach the bigger ones I think. Ugh!

[greenmagick]

I dont know, she is only a several months older than my dd (I think from your siggie?  My dd will be 6 in december) and she can only count to twenty reliably and recognize numbers about up to there and will still need help sometimes.  I am thinking she is just not quite ready for it yet?  She still cant visualize or understand the concept of what certain numbers mean and I dont really know of her friends that can either.  Maybe I am misunderstanding what is going on?

I am also curious, what would the no tv accomplish?  I am just trying to figure out the correlation?  

[philomom]

Back up a bit and see if she can count things.. objects. Ten glasses going into the dishwasher. !8 bags of sweet and low at the cafe. Don't panic yet!

[sleepypeanutsmom]

I can hear in your post your love and caring for your daughter along with your frustration.  Hugs Mama!

I am a little confused.  The title of your post says that your dd is not grasping numbers yet you say she can identify 1-10 and is coming along on the teens but is having difficulty with larger numbers.  So she is grasping some numbers, just not all?  Am I reading this right?  Do you know if this is something other children her age are able to do?  My youngest two are a year younger than your daughter.  They can identify 1-10 but do not yet have the teens.  I am guessing if you have gone through the potential developmental problems (and it sounds like you have been very thorough with this) then she just may not be there yet with numbers.  Every child develops at a different pace.  Are there areas that she has really excelled at?  My oldest dd is 5th grade...her reading is probably high school level but her math skills are maybe a year behind her age.  I know she will catch up when the time is right for her. 

I'm not a big fan of tv watching but with that said I don't think decreasing your daughter's tv watching will allow her to grasp the concept of 20, 30, 40.  I don't think it is anything you are doing "wrong" or not doing.  I am guessing she will come along with her math just fine.  I would take a step back and look at her as a whole child.  Is she developing along well on the whole?  She is young and there is lots of time for her to grasp these concepts.  Go easy on yourself. 

[eastkygal]

Originally Posted by philomom 

Back up a bit and see if she can count things.. objects. Ten glasses going into the dishwasher. !8 bags of sweet and low at the cafe. Don't panic yet!

Yes, she does this readily.  This is no problem at all for her.  Which, is why I'm wondering if I should just stick with single digits as the curriculum goes, and forget the counting to 100.  We are working with 1st grade curriculum so I'm assuming the publishers feel she should be able to do this.  I have a Master's in Teaching but for upper grades and high school.  She is my first baby and the first I've ever taught this young, so I don't really know what to expect of her I guess.  She seems really bright to me in general.

Originally Posted by sleepypeanutsmom 

I can hear in your post your love and caring for your daughter along with your frustration.  Hugs Mama!

I am a little confused.  The title of your post says that your dd is not grasping numbers yet you say she can identify 1-10 and is coming along on the teens but is having difficulty with larger numbers.  So she is grasping some numbers, just not all?  Am I reading this right?  Do you know if this is something other children her age are able to do?  My youngest two are a year younger than your daughter.  They can identify 1-10 but do not yet have the teens.  I am guessing if you have gone through the potential developmental problems (and it sounds like you have been very thorough with this) then she just may not be there yet with numbers.  Every child develops at a different pace.  Are there areas that she has really excelled at?  My oldest dd is 5th grade...her reading is probably high school level but her math skills are maybe a year behind her age.  I know she will catch up when the time is right for her. 

I'm not a big fan of tv watching but with that said I don't think decreasing your daughter's tv watching will allow her to grasp the concept of 20, 30, 40.  I don't think it is anything you are doing "wrong" or not doing.  I am guessing she will come along with her math just fine.  I would take a step back and look at her as a whole child.  Is she developing along well on the whole?  She is young and there is lots of time for her to grasp these concepts.  Go easy on yourself. 

Thank you for the encouragement.  See the above response that answers some of what you have asked here as well.  I was just thinking in taking some TV time, it might help her concentration, but I don't know if that is even the problem.  She is sitting right next to me and not daydreaming when we are doing this, so... I'm just wondering if I should lay off trying to count to 100 just now.  Maybe that is what I should do.?

[mattemma04]

 I would relax.Maybe get some free educational pc games online or through library interloan for her to try. I think the mia the mouse ones had math among other things. I think she is doing well from what you wrote. I remember being upset over my ds not reading well at 7,and now at 9 he fininshed all the harry potter books.

My kids really liked the pc games. Arthur games were a favorite.

My kids are now 9 and 12 and IMO they are progressing fine(in Monetessori),but the teachers are always freaking over something they are not learning fast enough.Me, I know in time they will learn all they need to learn. When they were younger I worried more about them not knowing.what I THOUGHT  they should know,or comparing them to others their age. I found that forcing things when they are not ready just hurt them and me both!

Best wishes!

[AAK]

We don't use RightStart math, but I did buy the game kit.  It is fantastic and has MANY games to reinforce number concepts (and beyond).  As far as rote counting to 100, my second did best by learning to count by 10s first.  She kept track of which ten she was on with her fingers as she counted to 100.  

Based on her age and grade, I bet she takes off this year in regards to numbers.  Also, counting to 100 is one thing-- understanding that 20 is more then 12 is another.  Perhaps make a list of number concept skills that she has and doesn't have.  Check them off as she tackles them.  It might be encouraging.  But, remember, you may need to learn things again as you move to bigger numbers.  

Good luck!

Amy

[bandgeek]

My DS seemed to take a longer time than most to "get" his numbers too.  He couldn't even count to 5 until he was over 4 years old.  We finally got to 14 when he was 5.  He skipped 15 for the longest time.  After he got to 20 it was smooth sailing.  He was SO excited when he finally learned to count to 100!  Now, even when he counted to 100, he still couldn't figure out how the numbers read!  The teens tripped him up until he was almost 6.  He DID finally get it and when he did a lot of stuff just "clicked" for him and now he's *ahead* in math by about 1 1/2 grade levels.  He understands higher concepts even though he's not quick with counting and basic addition and subtraction still.  It sometimes takes him a full minute to figure out 12-7 (because he's still slow to count backward) but he can do 2 (and 3 and 4) digit subtraction with re-grouping, it just takes time.  Everyone has their strengths and weaknesses.  It's one reason I'm happy to homeschool is because I know I can move on and teach him other stuff, knowing he will become more fluent in the basic stuff as we go on.  And he has.  I tried to get him to memorize his addition and subtraction tables (yeah right!) so he could work faster.  He can't seem to just sit down and memorize, BUT they are coming to him slowly but surely.  He now has the lower ones memorized (2+3, ect) and also 2+2, 3+3, ect all the way through 5+5.  He's memorized them on his own, through working with numbers in higher concepts.  So I say just go for it.  It will come to her.

[Nazsmum]

All children are different. I would give her more time. That is the good thing about homeschool we can give time to let our "students" grow.

If you see a problem you can always get her tested. BUT I would really give time.

[moominmamma]

I would drop the higher numbers for now. It sounds like you are experiencing a lot of anxiety and frustration over the larger numbers, and I don't doubt that she's picking up on that. Anxiety can totally derail mathematical learning. The Asian approach to math focusing broadly and deeply on numbers 0-20 for the first part of the primary curriculum (i.e. 1st grade), on the theory, borne out by very high standardized math scores in later years, that a firm foundation in small numbers is essential before starting to build place-value complexity beyond them. The Singapore Primary Math US Ed. Level 1A goes into a fair bit of depth in mathematics simply using the numbers 0-20. Perhaps you could do something like that for now, and return to the place-value type exercises (i.e. number families) in a few months. With a more solid foundation and less stress and anxiety, she may be ready to start grasping place value into the tens at that point.

FWIW, I think that moving from 4 to "four tens" and then immediately to the numbers 40-49 is a more complex conceptual leap than most kids would be ready for if they were completely new to place value.  

Miranda

[raelize]

Originally Posted by moominmamma 

I would drop the higher numbers for now. It sounds like you are experiencing a lot of anxiety and frustration over the larger numbers, and I don't doubt that she's picking up on that. Anxiety can totally derail mathematical learning. The Asian approach to math focusing broadly and deeply on numbers 0-20 for the first part of the primary curriculum (i.e. 1st grade), on the theory, borne out by very high standardized math scores in later years, that a firm foundation in small numbers is essential before starting to build place-value complexity beyond them. The Singapore Primary Math US Ed. Level 1A goes into a fair bit of depth in mathematics simply using the numbers 0-20. Perhaps you could do something like that for now, and return to the place-value type exercises (i.e. number families) in a few months. With a more solid foundation and less stress and anxiety, she may be ready to start grasping place value into the tens at that point.

FWIW, I think that moving from 4 to "four tens" and then immediately to the numbers 40-49 is a more complex conceptual leap than most kids would be ready for if they were completely new to place value.  

Miranda

i totally agree with this.  my dd is only a few months older than yours and she can barely get past 10. i think that developmentally you may be expecting too much. i agree with the singapore math idea that they should have a really good foundation in the under 20 numbers and to not expect more than that before age 7ish.  and i also think that there is an abstract leap that would be beyond most kids that age. 

have you thought about a number line? i am putting one up this week on the wall in our dining room. it will go up to 40, simply so that we can count each day of the month with a clothes pin attached to the number line. do you have a chart that has the numbers 0-99 or 1-100? that may help her visualize what you are talking about. but i wouldn't really expect her to get it until age 7. and even though someone has memorized something doesn't mean they understand it. as you said, she memorizes songs but it doesn't mean she actually understands what she is saying, it is just the sound the words make. i would take out the part of the curriculum you are using that emphazises the 20's,.30's, 40's, etc. and just focus on the rest of the numbers. the book Kitchen Table Math has some good ideas about how to introduce larger numbers.
 

[AAK]

A couple more thoughts.  We have the "number train" puzzle that is great.  The puzzle is put in order by number.  Each train car has the number written on it and the appropriate number of objects to count.  I would scatter them on the floor and coach my dd through it.   "Which number is next. . . oh, 7, ok let's hunt for the seven."  When she found it (or at least thought she found it), we would count the balloons or ladybugs or whatever to "double check".  It was fun. 

I also second singapore math.  That is our spine.  They definitely do a lot with numbers 1-20.  At first it seems to take forever to work with bigger numbers, but the firm foundation is awesome.

Amy

[marimara]

I will put in a plug for Miquon and Cuisenaire rods.  They can lay the blocks out in front of them visually.  You can build on what she already knows.  I'm a big fan of the C. rods letting the child visual the whole, then the pieces, and to see how they fit together.  I think it is a fabulous way to learn math.  Works great for visual and tactile learners.  Here is an example of using C. rods to learn money, which has double digits, to give you an example of how visual it is. That's not my website just one that I found.

[SweetSilver]

We still are fans of Richard Scarry's "Best Counting Book Ever".  I've been reading it since dd1 was about 2.  Now at 6.5 she is reading it to my 4.5yo.  I like that the numbers are broken down, like for the #12, 5 hens are red, 5 are white and 2 are black.  12 hens in all!  I much prefer "teaching" concepts like this through stories.  Over and over and over again.  Then one day, CLICK!  (Just like my own experience with algebra!  One summer off and somehow I just "got" it.)  6yo is not too old for this book, and your youngest will love it.

[Lovesong]

I wouldn't worry.

As the others have said, certain things take certain children longer time to learn. Just take such a basic thing as walking as an example. Each child learn it in a different way, some of us crawl and then walk. Some just sit and watch, and then surprise their parents by standing up and taking their first steps. But most of us do get there eventually without any real coaxing or special help from our surrounding, except perhaps a trouser leg to cling to. :)

Math is much the same. We learn it in different ways, and there really is no one way of learning that is better than the other as long as in the end, we know mathematics. I would stop worrying too much about your daughter not learning rather abstract mathematics and high numbers, and focus on what she does seem to grasp. For instance, basic addition and subtraction, since that is a great way of sneaking in a new number every now and again. For example, the number 20 can be learnt by having her pick out two groups of ten and asking her if she knows how many it is if you group them all together. Make it fun. Make it playful. Repeat without really repeating, and I am sure she will soon learn the number 20 too when it is playful and light hearted. Before you know it, she will know that ten groups of tens is 100. And that just four groups of tens is 40.

Personally I would make or buy an abacus, since it is a great tool for helping visualise the different levels of numbers.

[Stacey B]

I've been thinking about your TV comment. I think if you set it up as taking it away from her it may actually put more stress on her. Unless her habit is to watch tv for 6 hours a day I don't think it is going to get in the way of number learning. We're big fans of C rods for conceptual learning of number. My DS is a year younger, but I definitely see him grasp ideas faster when he is touching it with the colors.

[bass chick]

I love our abacus to help visualize the numbers and we use RightStart Math, which has really helped my struggling 7 year old.

The teach numbers 1-10, then they teach 1-ten, 2-ten, 3-ten and so on up to 10-ten (instead of 20, 30, 40 and so on). So for the first couple of years 30 is read as 3-ten. Then after you learn 1-ten to 10-ten. Just a thought.

[beaner&tiegs]

I think that she's pretty young yet, and I imagine this is causing a lot of stress for you both.  I'd totally drop it for now, and re-visit it in a while.  You'd be surprised, I'm sure, by what she picks up on her own in another year:-)  We've been going through a similar thing with my middle daughter, but with the alphabet.  AND she's a couple of years older than your daughter.  I too used to stress out about it, but then I began to watch her kick our butts at math strategy games and thrive on all things numbers, so I relaxed.  And now, for whatever reason, lots of letters are beginning to sink in - yes, at the same time that her younger brother is ready to learn them as well, but there you go.  I doubt we'll really notice a difference in the years to come, it's just taking her longer to catch on.

[eclipse]

My ds is just a little younger than your dd (he'll be 6 next month) and he struggles a bit with numbers, too. If it helps you to know, he goes to a charter school for classes once a week and I asked the teachers there about it, and they said it's pretty normal/common for this age to get lost when they get into the teens. In some school districts, kids with birthdays near our kids' b-days would just be entering kindy this year. Definitely keep working with her, but I don't think it's a sign of a learning disability or that it's at all age inappropriate for her to be have trouble grasping numbers past 10.

[crunchy_mama]

I would agree w/ pp I think that your perhaps pushing where it isn't developmentally appropriate.  It might help to preview some math programs and get an idea of what they are working on for this age.  At the beginning of last year when ds just turned 6 he couldn't even count to 10 or recognize half the numbers, just rote memorization did not work with him.  We started Right Start Math though as a lot of it is oral and orally he could tell you addition facts, even though he couldn't count them.  We started actually on Level B, that is where he tested.  It would seem counterintuitive that starting a program would ease the stress but it totally did, RS is very gentle.  At the end of the year he could count to 100++++, add double digits in his head, add 1000s w/ carrying, tell time to the minute, count change and many more things.  As a pp suggested if nothing else I would get the card games and just do them and NOTHING else for math for awhile, let her and you have a bit of a break.