Kids and dogs

[ThreeCats]

We've worked very hard from early on to teach our DS (currently 26 months old) to be gentle with animals. We have 2 med. size (55-65 lbs) dogs and 3 cats in a fairly small home, so there's always a creature nearby. For the most part, DS does well with them, but we've been struggling a bit with DS and one of our dogs. DS generally leaves our "black dog" alone - black dog is super mellow, and doesn't really care if he gets stepped on, grabbed, whatever. If it happens, though, we can usually redirect DS to a toy, and he'll leave black dog alone. Our "crazy dog" though, has never been a big fan of DS - he gets anxious whenever DS is near him. If he gets too worked up (he's really high-strung) he gets crated - it's the only way in our small house to physically separate them. Lately, though, DS has been pestering crazy dog more and more...because crazy dog reacts. He'll chase the dog, and the dog runs away, etc. Redirection isn't working, so poor crazy dog ends up crated most of the time to avoid stress for him (the dog) and a possible bite for DS.

How do I teach DS that is ok to pet one dog but not the other? That chasing dogs with hands or toys is not ok? That it is not ok to throw things at dogs? We take his toys away if he throws them or hits things (people, animals, walls) with them...but I'm not sure what else to do consequence-wise. Obviously, this is a safety issue, so I can't just wait to see if he'll outgrow it.

Thanks!

ETA - I should add that crazy dog usually reacts by growling and walking away (which is acceptable to me) but I can see it escalating, especially if he felt cornered.
Edited by ThreeCats - 9/1/11 at 3:23pm

[tooraloora]

First off, I'm sure that "crazy dog" is well loved and that my suggestion may not be something you'd be able to to accept, and keep in mind this is just my opinion, but just to put it out there: I'd probably consider re-homing him. It doesn't sound like his personality is very compatible with young children, and it's going to be awhile before your DS really has the impulse control not to terrorize him. If you had more space to separate them but without taking away space and access to the family from either crazy dog or DS, I'd see it differently, but as it is, I'd worry about his quality of life suffering from being cooped up in the crate all the time. Also, I'd worry that eventually a bite could happen and the consequences of that could potentially be terrible for both your DS and your furry friend. I understand if re-homing isn't an option for you guys, but it may be something to consider. You might also consider a temp to perm placement with a relative or friend. It sounds like you're doing a great job teaching your DS how to treat animals, and I'm sure he'll get there eventually. Right now he's just too young to really reign in his impulses.

I had to re-home my much beloved cat when my DD was a baby. It was tough, I missed him like crazy, and I'm sure the transition was hard for him as well, but in the end, I feel it was the right choice for him. DD was far too young to be capable of controlling her impulses and the only way I had to separate them was to keep him in the garage, where he didn't have access to the frequent attention and affection he was used to. It would have been a long time before he would have been able to come back in with the family again, and he was just not happy out there. Re-homing him was the kindest option.

[nd_deadhead]

I agree about rehoming. I am a huge dog-lover, but a dog and a family have to be compatible, and your crazy dog isn't compatible withe your son. It isn't anybody's fault - not the dog, not the toddler, not you - it just is.

Finding a new home will make crazy dog happy (less crate time, less time being pestered), and will keep your son safe. Right now I would consider the risk of him getting bitten to be fairly high - one never knows when a dog might reach his limit.

I am in the process of adopting a dog who is aggressive with other dogs. He isn't able to live a full life where he is, because he can't be let out to play with the other dogs, or have the run of the house when other dogs are around. We don't have another dog, and don't have people with dogs who visit us, so it's a good match.

Did you happen to get "crazy dog" from a breeder? If so, most responsible breeders will take back a dog that the owners can't keep (for whatever reason).

Good luck, and hugs to you for dealing with a difficult situation.

[Imakcerka]

Ok, we had the crazy dog and it he was a Beagle.  You know how you should never leave your animals alone with a small child, well I never did because he didn't like many people.  When DD1 was about 2, I had changed her out of her pull up, and walked to pull up to the laundry room trash.  10 adult steps, and when I got there DD1 stabbed crazy Beagle with a plastic rake, crazy Beagle nipped DD1 in the face.  Though it wasn't a terrible bite, it was enough for me to realize if 10 adult steps with my back turned can do that what happens if she gets out of bed at night and wanders around?  We had stressed over and over gentle with the dogs.  And honestly she wasn't left alone with him, I was technically in the same room. 

Due to not wanting to have the dog put down (also we couldn't find anyone who wanted a toddler biter), we kept them apart at all times.  Baby gates got put up every where.  He also got to spend three months outside, thankfully it was spring and we have a really nice deck.  You can either hope for the best, or live in constant worry like we did.  Is the dog going to get out?  Is toddler going to shank the dog again while I'm going to the bathroom?  VERY STRESSFUL!

I would rehome him.  I've lived through the dog bite and at that point I had to be honest with people and nobody wanted him. 

[ThreeCats]

Thank you all for your thoughtful responses. I'm sorry I haven't replied sooner.

We've gone back and forth about rehoming Crazy Dog for a while now. We get to where we start thinking that it's the best decision, then things seem to get better. Both of our dogs are shelter mutts - we signed agreements to return them to the shelter if we couldn't keep them for whatever reason, and thinking about putting one of them back in a shelter is a totally heartbreaking thought to me. It'd probably be a lot easier (emotionally) if I could return him to a breeder who would love him until they found a new home for him, or if I could find a loving home for him myself. We've had him since he was a puppy, and he's definitely bonded to us. Black Dog further complicates the issue - he pretty much "belongs" to Crazy Dog, and totally freaks out if we separate them...even if it's taking one dog out to potty and not the other. I'm not saying that rehoming Crazy Dog (or both dogs) isn't an option, but it's definitely a tough decision, and it would be really hard on all of us.

I know we're not at the point where we can make a decision right now, and even if we could, we couldn't act on it immediately - we're 3.5 hours away from the shelter Crazy Dog came from, and I can't make that trip by myself with a toddler and a (crazy) dog at 8 months pregnant. What can we do differently with DS while we work towards making a decision? I need to be sure that we've tried absolutely everything to make it work before I consider breaking up our family. I guess I really just need some ideas on what works for toddlers as far as discipline goes - this is the first "real" issue we've had that time and redirection haven't fixed.

Thanks again.

[dbsam]

I had a ‘crazy dog’, a mellow dog and twin toddlers.  Our house isn’t small but the dogs tend to stay where we are in the main living area.    Like you, I repeatedly explained to the children why it is important to leave Harry alone.  I do not remember my children throwing things at him or pestering him too much but they did need to be taught to be careful – e.g.  not step on him if he was lying by the couch, not to put their face in his face, not to startle him, etc.   I never left them alone with the dogs.  I often had Harry follow me when I left the room.  (Which was a shame because it took me a couple of years to get him comfortable not following me around.)  Our ‘crazy dog’ could not be crated because he freaked out and hurt himself when crated.  We used baby gates – a lot of gates – the type that are permanently attached to the wall so they are not a PITA to open and close a million times a day.  Both of my children were nipped by Harry.  (One child stepped on him and the other fell on him - he reacted.)  Eventually (I believe at around age three) my children understood that Harry was old, blind, deaf, arthritic and unstable and they were very compassionate.  When my children were older, the dogs and children mingled freely, they took both dogs for walks, etc.  When other children came over we always gated Harry away from them.  My children are now 7, Harry passed away in November, it all worked out – but it was work.  Giving away Harry was not an option…no one would want him.   If we would not have been able to make it work, we would have had to put him down and that would have been devastating so we were diligent about being careful.   -

HTH

I wanted to add…we didn’t keep the toddlers and dogs separated all of the time, just when necessary.  My friend kept her dog separated all of the time and now, years later, her dog still is not comfortable with her children.

[foreverinbluejeans]

I had to rehome my cats when we found out my grandson was allergic. I was devastated. I found a little Chihuahua at the pound and it was love at first sight. Chihuahuas and toddlers can be a bad mix. Unexpectedly I moved in with my son, dil and grandson. I have been able to teach the dog and my grandson that a growl means stop. The dog has nipped a couple of times when my grandson knew he deserved it. We all know if my grandson gets bit it is because my grandson was tormenting the dog. The dog only weights 3 pounds and his teeth aren't very sharp. We can't rehome my grandson (just kidding). We hope for the best and if he gets bit by the itty bitty Chihuahua - boys like scars.  

We had dogs when my 3 boys were growing up. We fosterd dogs and sometimes we had 5 or 6 dogs. We had a 100 pound dog (our big silly dog) that my son was playing with and the dog bit his ear. My son said it was his fault and not the dogs. It was one of those things that you didn't know if it was bad enough to go to the ER. I called our doctor and ended up going to the ER. They just cleaned it and glued it together. They didn't even report it as a dog bite since my son was so calm and was saying he was just playing with the dog and it was his fault. It was a good thing we didn't take the 100 pound dog with us to the ER! That was the only problem we ever had with kids and dog injuries.

[oaktreemama]

We hope for the best and if he gets bit by the itty bitty Chihuahua - boys like scars.   

Is this a joke? God I hope so. Even a small dog can do a lot of damage to a child's face-a dog's reaction time is so fast he could actually bite your grandson multiple times before anyone could intervene. Secondly you could be giving your grandson a life long fear of dogs-terribly harmful given the amount of family dogs he will likely encounter in his lifetime.

YOU are responsible for you dog's behavior-YOU are responsible for controlling the interactions between your grandson and your dog. He doesn't deserve to get bitten because YOU have failed to provde adequate supervision. I have a hard time imaging your DIL is this cavalier about her son and his enjoying "scars."

OP-I too have a nervous dog and it has taken time and gates to ensure everyone's safety. It can be done. It isn't easy by any stretch but now at just older then 3 my son is respectful of our dog. They are still never alone together though.

[insidevoice]

Baby gates.  Everywhere.  Our dogs are put into the kitchen when the kids are rambunctious- for their own good.  My chihuahua is fine, he'll just hide if he's overwhelmed, my mutt is more snappy, but I seriously doubt she would bite.  Still, she's a little older and doesn't like being pestered, so she is often put into the kitchen behind a baby gate to keep her free from little boy hands poking at her.

If either of my dogs were big enough to cause harm, I would reevaluate whether they belonged in our home. I did recently have a dog put to sleep because she became aggressive, I was heartbroken, but I would make the same decision again if I needed to. The safety of the kids in our house has to come first.

[Imakcerka]

Wait... rehoming kids isn't an option... well, crud!  I've considered.  My big dog is so much more well behaved than my kids! 

heres a trick we tried and did work when we brought out crazy dog back in.  Wear your dog.  Short leash fastened to your belt loop.  And keep your kid close by.  My dog wanted to be with me anyway and so this way if I had to walk out of a room he had to follow.  I was able to keep a good eye on both.  It also strenghtened the pack mentality.  I did this for a few weeks and only in the house.  After a bit I was able to stop doing it but the crazy dog continued to follow me everywhere I went,  it made it so much easier to know what he was up to at all times.  And eventually toddler and dog, did do ok together.  They aren't best friends, but crazy dog and little DD are.  Always together.  It can work out.

[Triniity]

Just an add on, there are studies out there which show that there was almost always a "little nip" before the "real bite" in dogs. I would not keep a dog that "nipped" on one of the children. We have two dogs, one of them a "crazy dog" (border collie mix) (maybe there is always a crazy dog?)

My DS is a bit of a pain to the dog at times, he can be really rough. I intervene and redirect, but every tiny bit of "nip" (meaning an intentional and kind of "educational" nip - not an accident while playing) and the dog would go. I will not take chances. I´ve seen enough kids with severe bite injuries, some of them loosing eyesight or something.

[scottishmommy]

We had to rehome our dog. It was a very good decision. I gave her to my mom, so I can still see her. She is thriving in my mom's home. She was always underweight when she lived with us (she wouldn't eat), but has now put on a lot of weight and seems much healthier and happier. I felt terrible about giving her away, but I was very worried she might bite DD. I would never rehome a dog out for convenience, but when there is a safety risk I think it's the best decision. Your dog will be happier in a quiet home where he can be left in peace! I'm so sorry you guys are in this situation. It sucks!

[savithny]

Originally Posted by foreverinbluejeans 

. We hope for the best and if he gets bit by the itty bitty Chihuahua - boys like scars.  

My dad and husband both carry facial scars from dog bites.   

No, they don't like them at all.   Really.  

There's nothing particularly cool about a bite scar.    They're painful, they can get infected, and they can be permanently disfiguring, even from a small dog.  Arguing that bite scars are cool is like arguing that smoking cigarettes makes you look cool.
 

Edited by savithny - 9/13/11 at 4:26pm

[stik]

Originally Posted by foreverinbluejeans 

I had to rehome my cats when we found out my grandson was allergic. I was devastated. I found a little Chihuahua at the pound and it was love at first sight. Chihuahuas and toddlers can be a bad mix. Unexpectedly I moved in with my son, dil and grandson. I have been able to teach the dog and my grandson that a growl means stop. The dog has nipped a couple of times when my grandson knew he deserved it. We all know if my grandson gets bit it is because my grandson was tormenting the dog. The dog only weights 3 pounds and his teeth aren't very sharp. We can't rehome my grandson (just kidding). We hope for the best and if he gets bit by the itty bitty Chihuahua - boys like scars.  

The doctors who stitch your grandson's face back together will not feel this way.  Neither will the CPS workers who investigate the neglect that resulted in the bites.  And frankly, neither will the animal control officers who seize and euthanize the vicious chihuahua that was allowed to repeatedly bite a toddler.  Small dogs can do a lot of damage - their size doesn't mean they are safe or sweet.  They can be very aggressive when provoked.  And while you may know that your grandson "deserved it," he's only three - babies don't understand how cause and effect apply to them.  That's why they need adult supervision.  Your attitude towards the dog's interactions with your grandson is potentially extremely dangerous for both the child and the dog.  As your grandson has already provoked the dog to bite on multiple occasions, the safe thing to do is to keep them separated for both of their safety.  
 

[Lakeeffectsnow]

Originally Posted by foreverinbluejeans 

I had to rehome my cats when we found out my grandson was allergic. I was devastated. I found a little Chihuahua at the pound and it was love at first sight. Chihuahuas and toddlers can be a bad mix. Unexpectedly I moved in with my son, dil and grandson. I have been able to teach the dog and my grandson that a growl means stop. The dog has nipped a couple of times when my grandson knew he deserved it. We all know if my grandson gets bit it is because my grandson was tormenting the dog. The dog only weights 3 pounds and his teeth aren't very sharp. We can't rehome my grandson (just kidding). We hope for the best and if he gets bit by the itty bitty Chihuahua - boys like scars.  

We had dogs when my 3 boys were growing up. We fosterd dogs and sometimes we had 5 or 6 dogs. We had a 100 pound dog (our big silly dog) that my son was playing with and the dog bit his ear. My son said it was his fault and not the dogs. It was one of those things that you didn't know if it was bad enough to go to the ER. I called our doctor and ended up going to the ER. They just cleaned it and glued it together. They didn't even report it as a dog bite since my son was so calm and was saying he was just playing with the dog and it was his fault. It was a good thing we didn't take the 100 pound dog with us to the ER! That was the only problem we ever had with kids and dog injuries.

Wow!

You live with your son, DIL, and grandson?  You live in their house and allow your dog to bite their child?  Is your DIL and son okay with this?  You can't keep a three pound dog separate from a toddler to protect both the child and the dog?    How about a dog crate?  Baby gates?  Even if  you don't care about the dog attacking  the child, you might want to consider the amount of damage a toddler could accidentally do to a small delicate dog.  You may also want to research age appropriate behavior and realize a small child is not "torment" the dog, the child doesn't really know better.  How about providing adequate supervision for both the dog and the child.

[lonegirl]

Originally Posted by foreverinbluejeans 

I had to rehome my cats when we found out my grandson was allergic. I was devastated. I found a little Chihuahua at the pound and it was love at first sight. Chihuahuas and toddlers can be a bad mix. Unexpectedly I moved in with my son, dil and grandson. I have been able to teach the dog and my grandson that a growl means stop. The dog has nipped a couple of times when my grandson knew he deserved it. We all know if my grandson gets bit it is because my grandson was tormenting the dog. The dog only weights 3 pounds and his teeth aren't very sharp. We can't rehome my grandson (just kidding). We hope for the best and if he gets bit by the itty bitty Chihuahua - boys like scars.  

.

Do you know what we call Chihuahuas at work?  Land Piranhas.   I hate working with them.  They are all teeth.  I don't fear the big dogs, or pitties....but I dread working with little dogs who turn into chompzilla the second you try to take them.  And omg the owners who thrust them at you.  I don't care if the dog is only 3 lbs. 2lbs of that is in it's oversized head full of teeth.  I am all about making sure the bites are unprovoked. but you know what?  The teeth of a 3 pound dog or a 150lb dog are sharp.
 

[Imakcerka]

WOW! My own dad freaked out about us riding horses because he'd been bucked off as a kid and half his face was crushed.  Still a handsome man but the scars were ugly!  Our family dog nipped me when I was small and my dad moved her to the garage during the winter and the back yard during the spring until he found her a home.  That was a nip. 

I would never put a small dog around a kid unless I knew for a fact the kid and dog were well behaved.  The land pirhana... I like that, has to be a joke ...   Why put a pet over the safety of your kid?  When our beagle bit our kid, he lived outside for 3 months until we could figure out how to handle the situation.  Then we realized we couldn't find him a new home but by the grace of whoever, they stayed away from each other.  She stayed away from him and he would run from the room if she came in.  Eventually they could be in the same room together but they never became friends.  And now he follows her everywhere since he can't see and she helps him on and off the back porch.  This was due to diligence.  I would never have kept him, but he either went down or we lied to someone about his past assault. 

I just don't get putting the animal above the kid.  I love my dogs... but I carried my kids in my womb.

[insidevoice]

Originally Posted by lonegirl 

Do you know what we call Chihuahuas at work?  Land Piranhas.   I hate working with them.  They are all teeth.  I don't fear the big dogs, or pitties....but I dread working with little dogs who turn into chompzilla the second you try to take them.  And omg the owners who thrust them at you.  I don't care if the dog is only 3 lbs. 2lbs of that is in it's oversized head full of teeth.  I am all about making sure the bites are unprovoked. but you know what?  The teeth of a 3 pound dog or a 150lb dog are sharp.
 

I have to admit I giggled at this.I have an almost 2 year old chihuahua and after putting a lot of work into socializing him, and working with the breeder closely, he's amazing.  However they are, naturally, a very nippy breed- particularly when people let them get away with things because they are so cute and little.  This guy was selected to become a therapy dog to use with folks who might be afraid of larger dogs, or who are bedridden and whom a dog who can climb on the bed with them allows them better access to being able to interact with the dog.  It was a HUGE gamble to select this breed, and I waited a long time for one with the right disposition to come along.  Most people really underestimate how high strung and nervous (and as a result- potentially dangerous) they can be.

Even with my little guy, we use a lot of escape routes behind furniture and work with the kids to teach them that they are not to follow the dog around to pet it, they are never to pick him up, and if he runs under the couch or sideboard, it's his way of saying 'no'.

My mom has a lovely mix- bigger than a chi, but still a small dog.  Initially she tried to tell me it was cute and wouldn't hurt a flea. I held firm and wouldn't allow it to growl at the kids when we visited and eventually, my mom agreed that the dog was happier if he stayed in their bedroom when the kids visited.  If a dog has reached the nipping/growling point the dog is pretty miserable, why subject it to more stress?  Separate kids who don't have the impulse control not to poke the dog and keep everyone safe and happy.  Truth be told, this dog is a GREAT dog- for two people in their 60s. 

[locolala]

It sounds like seperating them might be a good idea until your little one is old enough to understand how to treat the pup. We're getting our dog this weekend, he's a 134lb great pyrenees mix, who is amazing with kids and cats. Ali is 14 months and already knows how to pet an animal and how to play nice.

[Mama2Rio]

baby gates worked well for us. my DD will chase and provoke the dog and he usually gets up and will hide under the bed. he is a "crazy dog" doesn't like most men and was a stray and when i had him he was very underweight and had several dog bites on him. he has learned to get along with DD, who is 3. he fights/plays more like a cat so DD got a bad scratch on her lip when she was getting to close and cornered him. if the dog gets cornered and cannot get away, something will happen. 2 was a tough age between dd and dog. she still chases him with toys; i think he's learned to treat it like a game, but he knows he can move to another part of the house and get away from her and i will close the gate. separation has really been the best option for us. also, we stopped allowing the dog on the couch and the beds and that made a difference too (teaching dominance). not sure how you would feel, but my dog isn't really into food so we let dd feed him and give him water, which we started right before she turned 3. and she is also the only one in the house who gives him treats. he now obeys her when she tells him to "sit" and "stay" after only 3 months. the dog will need to learn that your child has dominance over him and that he (the dog) is lower in ranking.