Physicians refuse to treat non-vaxed children - Page 3

[lokidoki]

Originally Posted by WildKingdom 

No, it doesn't work that way in the real world.  You can document everything and still get sued.  It doesn't matter if it has no merit- it will still drag you through the mud for years and cost tens of thousands of dollars to defend.

For that matter ~ you can be sued even if the patient followed your advice and was a "good little patient" and did everything you requested. I think it is a lame excuse on the part of physicians to presume they know all. I think a collaborative effort on the part of both the physician and the patient is a good mix ~ not a "doctor knows it all" kind of attitude.

Disclaimer ~ I am not trying to be snarky or respond to your own individual experience...however I have been fired from a ped for refusing vaccines for my children. I was fired without any back up information or discussion as to why I am not vaxing ~ just a blanket statement of "if you do not vax, we will not see your children".

[Taximom5]

Originally Posted by WildKingdom 

So what you're saying is you made major lifestyle changes and got better. Good for you. That's great. I'm talking about patients who won't do that, but then also won't take the necessary meds. 

BTW, being "addicted" to carbs does not mean you have celiac. Were you ever actually tested?

No, what I'm saying is, I already had a very healthy lifestyle (low carb, low fat, no artificial sweeteners, no caffeine, daily exercise), and the doctor didn't believe me.

Do you have any clue what that feels like?

After making ONE major lifestyle change (gluten-free), all my health issues either resolved or drastically improved--thyroid, rashes, migraines, intestinal issues, blood sugar, GERD, PCOS, brain fog, etc.

I never said that being "addicted" to carbs means you have celiac.  I was diagnosed by bloodwork (celiac panel) and skin biopsy (I had DH). I did not realize I had been addicted until after I went off gluten (and started researching).

The reasons I brought up the subject of gluten addiction are

1) I experienced it

2) there is science supporting this theory (see earlier post)

3) doctors don't seem to be aware of this

4) I wish someone had told me about 10 years before I was diagnosed.

[Taximom5]

Originally Posted by lokidoki 

For that matter ~ you can be sued even if the patient followed your advice and was a "good little patient" and did everything you requested. 

This is absolutely true.  There are plenty of patients who sue their physicians even when they know the physician did nothing wrong, just so they can collect some money.  Worse, there are lawyers who agree to represent them--for the same rea$on.

That said, doctors CANNOT be sued for a vaccine reaction, not even if the child dies, not even if the vaccine was given against the parent's wishes.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by WildKingdom 

No, it doesn't work that way in the real world.  You can document everything and still get sued.  It doesn't matter if it has no merit- it will still drag you through the mud for years and cost tens of thousands of dollars to defend.

There's research out there that suggests that, in many cases, the biggest factor in whether a doctor gets sued or not is the doctor's attitude, not their documentation. I'm not the suing type - I'd rather go through almost anything than subject myself to a courtroom, for any reason - but there have been times I wish I could sue one of my old OBs (he was following "standard of care", so I couldn't), just because it makes me sick that he got away with treating me like a robot. It makes me sicker knowing that he's patting himself on the back, because "everything turned out alrigth", despite his "non-compliant" patient...and it didn't, for the patient (me).

I'll be honest. I've read your posts in the vax forums a on several times, and I can't imagine wanting you as a doctor. You come across as the exact kind of "I know everything, and I know what's best for you" type that's turned me completely away from the medical profession.

[WildKingdom]

Originally Posted by Storm Bride 

There's research out there that suggests that, in many cases, the biggest factor in whether a doctor gets sued or not is the doctor's attitude, not their documentation. I'm not the suing type - I'd rather go through almost anything than subject myself to a courtroom, for any reason - but there have been times I wish I could sue one of my old OBs (he was following "standard of care", so I couldn't), just because it makes me sick that he got away with treating me like a robot. It makes me sicker knowing that he's patting himself on the back, because "everything turned out alrigth", despite his "non-compliant" patient...and it didn't, for the patient (me).

I'll be honest. I've read your posts in the vax forums a on several times, and I can't imagine wanting you as a doctor. You come across as the exact kind of "I know everything, and I know what's best for you" type that's turned me completely away from the medical profession.

And I'll be honest, having read hundreds of your posts, that I would not want you as a patient.  

[Turquesa]

Originally Posted by Marnica 

I work in the mental health field. We adhere to Client Centered Care.....as in working with the patient in a collaborative relationship which centers on the patients goals and helping them find a way THEY are comfortable with in meeting those goals. I can't imagine dismissing a patient because they wouldn't adhere to a treatment plan I told them they had to follow because I presume to know what's best for them.

 

I share your background and have worked with countless doctors.  It's especially hard to do because they're operating under a much more paternalistic treatment paradigm.  I'll have to dig this up, but a social work colleague of mine sent me a bibliography of a research paper he did arguing that physicians working from a more client-centered and strengths-based model, (i.e. more like social workers!) experienced better patient outcomes and satisfaction than those who did not.

Part of it involves knowing when to let go.  You simply cannot control people or force them to make certain decisions.  But if you get them to collaborate with you in their treatment plan--even if they don't end up entirely seeing or doing things your way--they will ultimately want and do what is best for themselves or their children. 

So getting back to the thread topic, this may mean that a doctor will have to bite his/her tongue, swallow his/her pride, and LET GO of the fact that a family isn't getting one or more vaxxes.  As a provider, you can then gently reassure them that you're there for questions if they wish to revisit the issue and that you'll be sure to let them know about any outbreaks, etc.  Punishing parents by denying preventative health care to their children is nothing short of a power play.       
 

[JavaJunkie]

I know one person who has been dismissed from a couple of doctors for not following the treatment plan. I mean, what is the point of wasting the doctor's time and the patient's money if you aren't going to follow the doctor's advice?

[Buzzer Beater]

I have been "dismissed" from a doctor when I would not follow her standard of care. She would not give me birth control until I had a mammogram. No problem, I found another one. And if my ped were to dismiss me because I would prefer not to follow her vax schedule ( I don't ) I'd be bummed because I really really like her. I'd respect that decision though. And I would not be denied care because I would find another doctor.

Physicians are human too, some of them are know-it-all types and some aren't. In any case, I don't think it's wrong for a doctor to have a standard of care and stick to it. You expect them to, and in cases you count on it. Don't like the standard? Move on. Unless you live in a tiny town there is sure to be an MD, an NP, a DO or a midwife who will serve your needs better. Why would you want to see a doctor who doesn't share your views on your child's care?

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by WildKingdom 

And I'll be honest, having read hundreds of your posts, that I would not want you as a patient.  

Excellent. We have a meeting of the minds. That's good, either way.

[Taximom5]

I wonder how it would play out if StormBride were the doctor and WildKingdom the patient??  

Seriously, you are both obviously intelligent, well-educated women, obviously with opposite perspectives.

If there were a situation where you could work together without killing each other, you could make such a fantastic team...

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by Taximom5 

I wonder how it would play out if StormBride were the doctor and WildKingdom the patient??  

We'll never know. For a variety of reasons, I wouldn't even consider a career in a medical field. (Don't get me wrong. I'm glad there are doctors, for certain things.)

Seriously, you are both obviously intelligent, well-educated women, obviously with opposite perspectives.

Thank you. But, I'm actually not particularly well-educated, at least in any formal sense. I just really, really like to read.

If there were a situation where you could work together without killing each other, you could make such a fantastic team...

[nia82]

Hmm that makes me think how much it depends on the doctor's personality. Ours is totally understanding and acknowledged our research. He even learned new things and read up on studies that I had pointed out to him. He's not paternalistic, he's more of a collaborator kind of doctor. He's cool with our plan, orders the brands we would like, but mostly we see him for our well baby visits to discuss overall well-being, nutrition and development and he listens well to concerns and brings up interesting new tidbits. We agree to disagree on the CDC schedule and leave it at that, a very respectful relationship. HE's in a practice with 15 other FPs, and so far all of them have been like that. It's a very nice atmosphere. Not like the Air Force base pediatrician (who, very unfortunate for him, cannot fire his not-compliant patients, which infuriates him) - he literally hates anyone who deviates as much as a 1/1000 inch from CDC schedules and hands out wonderful advice as in formula feed all babies who weigh less than 50th percentile and such. A real gem. ;) 

I was fired from an obgyn 2 years ago for not following standard of care (in particular because I refused doppler checks at every appointment and only agreed to a 20 week anatomy scan or ultrasounds only if complications occur). That really did do me a favor though because a) I saw the doctor's not so nice attitude before I was in labor and b) it made me sign up for the birthing center which was wonderful, including their absolutely awesome backup obgyn who was super respectful of my not so outlandish wishes.

[dbsam]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taximom5 

No, what I'm saying is, I already had a very healthy lifestyle (low carb, low fat, no artificial sweeteners, no caffeine, daily exercise), and the doctor didn't believe me.

Do you have any clue what that feels like?

Your posts hit home with me because I have gone through almost the exact same thing with my health and with my children's health.

Many doctors have one way of looking at all situations.  They see the patient's profile (symptoms, weight, age, etc.) and make assumptions about the person's lifestyle even when the patient tells them otherwise.  These assumptions might be accurate in the majority of the cases...but not all.

I was even told once that my almost two year old needed to go on a diet.  His weight was on the high end of the chart and I guess the ped took one look at me - the overweight mother - and assumed I was feeding my children crap.  I told him my son had a fantastic diet and he didn't believe me.  He also failed to really look at my son.  My son's PT (he has CP) laughed when she heard the ped wanted him on a diet - partly because she knew how well my son ate.  She also said "Has the ped ever looked at this boy without his shirt on?  He is the only toddler I know with a six-pack."  (My son walked very late and drug himself around and as a result had a very strong upper body and more muscle mass than most toddlers.) 

The same with vaccines...both of my children had severe reactions and I believe the vaccines caused my daughter's epilepsy.  But the pediatrician refused to believe that or to even acknowledge that some children do have adverse reactions...even though the even CDC admits it.   He was stuck thinking one way for all children.  He didn't even believe preemies should be vaccinated based on adjusted age (and unfortunately I was not properly educated at the time and gave in on that fight - which could have been part of the reason my children (born at 32 weeks) had reactions.)

Our current ped does not like the fact that we stopped vaccinating.  He tries to talk us into it but hasn't fired us yet.  We were recently told we were going to be 'fired' but it was because we do not come in often enough...there just is no reason.  So in order to retain a ped, I was told I needed to bring the children in once a year for a physical (@$200/each and not covered by our insurance.)

Most of the children's neurologists support our decision to stop vaccinating.  However, they will not put it in writing in the form of a vax exemption.

[Turquesa]

Originally Posted by Buzzer Beater 

I have been "dismissed" from a doctor when I would not follow her standard of care. She would not give me birth control until I had a mammogram. No problem, I found another one. And if my ped were to dismiss me because I would prefer not to follow her vax schedule ( I don't ) I'd be bummed because I really really like her. I'd respect that decision though. And I would not be denied care because I would find another doctor.

Physicians are human too, some of them are know-it-all types and some aren't. In any case, I don't think it's wrong for a doctor to have a standard of care and stick to it. You expect them to, and in cases you count on it. Don't like the standard? Move on. Unless you live in a tiny town there is sure to be an MD, an NP, a DO or a midwife who will serve your needs better. Why would you want to see a doctor who doesn't share your views on your child's care?

Of course I would!  The problem is....I can't!  One vax-friendly doctor had to stop accepting "non-compliant" patients after a larger health "care" giant swallowed up his private practice.  Another one retired.  Yet another was great...until her nurse called me *at home* to chew me out for doing an alternative schedule. 

We are now doctor-less, and with an increasing number of physians either harassing parents for their vaccine choices (usually through guilt, fear, or even bullying), or dismissing them altogether....I'm left to wonder how I'm going to get DD's next round of vaccinations. 

This---THIS!--is why I'm convinced that the decision to deny health care services to children of non-vaxxing and alternatively vaxxing parents is based NOT on a concern over vaccinations, but over personal pride and ego.  I'm going to try another doctor soon and hope for the best, but no busy parent has time to motor-ass around town for Meet 'N Greet sessions. If doctors actually cared about my children getting vaccinated, they'd accomodate my desire to get the vaccines that I DO want for my daughter without any hassles, bad mommy lectures, or punishments.  But if they force me to choose between all or nothing, I'm inevitably going to end up with nothing.  How badly do they want my kid vaccinated??    

[Buzzer Beater]

Originally Posted by Turquesa 

Of course I would!  The problem is....I can't!  One vax-friendly doctor had to stop accepting "non-compliant" patients after a larger health "care" giant swallowed up his private practice.  Another one retired.  Yet another was great...until her nurse called me *at home* to chew me out for doing an alternative schedule. 

We are now doctor-less, and with an increasing number of physians either harassing parents for their vaccine choices (usually through guilt, fear, or even bullying), or dismissing them altogether....I'm left to wonder how I'm going to get DD's next round of vaccinations. 

This---THIS!--is why I'm convinced that the decision to deny health care services to children of non-vaxxing and alternatively vaxxing parents is based NOT on a concern over vaccinations, but over personal pride and ego.  I'm going to try another doctor soon and hope for the best, but no busy parent has time to motor-ass around town for Meet 'N Greet sessions. If doctors actually cared about my children getting vaccinated, they'd accomodate my desire to get the vaccines that I DO want for my daughter without any hassles, bad mommy lectures, or punishments.  But if they force me to choose between all or nothing, I'm inevitably going to end up with nothing.  How badly do they want my kid vaccinated??    

I'm sorry you've had that experience, do you live in a really small town? You can go to the health department for the vaccines you do want and see another hcp for other stuff.

I have friends on delayed/no vax schedules and I've never heard them say they had a problem with their ped. Maybe they have moved to less pushy practices but certainly no bullying! That's crazy. I'd think for most docs if they are argumentative about vax it's because they truly believe in them and care for your children's health.

[purslaine]

I sort of get why a specialist would fire a non-compliant patient, particularly if there is a wait-list.  An example might be a cardiologist - if you refuse to make lifestyle changes and/or take you meds (and refuse to even explore doing those thing), what is the point in seeing the doctor?  

A pediatrician and certainly a GP are quite different, though.  They do so much more that vaxxing!  It seems a little power trippy to fire a patient from a generalist type practice  over one thing.

[Buzzer Beater]

Originally Posted by kathymuggle 

I sort of get why a specialist would fire a non-compliant patient, particularly if there is a wait-list.  An example might be a cardiologist - if you refuse to make lifestyle changes and/or take you meds (and refuse to even explore doing those thing), what is the point in seeing the doctor?  

A pediatrician and certainly a GP are quite different, though.  They do so much more that vaxxing!  It seems a little power trippy to fire a patient from a generalist type practice  over one thing.

Why would you hold a ped or GP to a different standard? They are highly skilled professionals the same as a cardiologist. Heck I think any professional might dismiss you if you didn't want to follow their advice. Would your accountant keep you if you refused to pay taxes? Maybe not. I would imagine that most people (not just pride-filled egotistical drs) would like to know their opinion and hard work are headed in a particular direction... doctors do care!

That's why I made the suggestion of getting vax done at the health dept and getting the rest of medical care somewhere a selective vaxxer's opinions are more in sync with the practitioner. Although as I said my ped doesn't bother me a bit about our selective and delayed vax.

[purslaine]

Originally Posted by Buzzer Beater 

Why would you hold a ped or GP to a different standard? They are highly skilled professionals the same as a cardiologist. Heck I think any professional might dismiss you if you didn't want to follow their advice. Would your accountant keep you if you refused to pay taxes? Maybe not. I would imagine that most people (not just pride-filled egotistical drs) would like to know their opinion and hard work are headed in a particular direction... doctors do care!

That's why I made the suggestion of getting vax done at the health dept and getting the rest of medical care somewhere a selective vaxxer's opinions are more in sync with the practitioner. Although as I said my ped doesn't bother me a bit about our selective and delayed vax.

Bolding mine.  I said neither of these things - or even implied it.  As per doctors do care - of course most of them do!   I would question how caring it is to deny a child care, though, based on the decision of its parents, particularly in areas where there are doctor shortages....

FWIW, I have never had a doctor dismiss me or even hint at it over my lack of vaxxing.  

A GP is highly trained and highly valued - they also treat multiple things.  Vaxxing is a small part (perhaps very small part) of what they do.  I would not expect a GP to dismiss anyone over one small piece of care.  It has nothing to do with their level of expertise and everything to do with their breadth of practice.

[Buzzer Beater]

Originally Posted by kathymuggle 

Bolding mine.  I said neither of these things - or even implied it.  As per doctors do care - of course most of them do!   I would question how caring it is to deny a child care, though, based on the decision of its parents, particularly in areas where there are doctor shortages....

FWIW, I have never had a doctor dismiss me or even hint at it over my lack of vaxxing.  

A GP is highly trained and highly valued - they also treat multiple things.  Vaxxing is a small part (perhaps very small part) of what they do.  I would not expect a GP to dismiss anyone over one small piece of care.  It has nothing to do with their level of expertise and everything to do with their breadth of practice.

What your post implied to me is that if a dr has a specialty it's okay if you are dismissed for not following their standard of care, and that peds should not do that because they don't specialize. I get what you mean about the vax as a small piece of a ped's big picture for each patient. At least you and I would think it should be a small piece? But they would be just as involved as a specialist in the "success" of their patients.

I meant that I thought doctors care about how their skills and education end up playing out in the health of the patient no matter the level of specialty.

[purslaine]

Originally Posted by Buzzer Beater 

What your post implied to me is that if a dr has a specialty it's okay if you are dismissed for not following their standard of care, and that peds should not do that because they don't specialize. I get what you mean about the vax as a small piece of a ped's big picture for each patient. At least you and I would think it should be a small piece? But they would be just as involved as a specialist in the "success" of their patients.

I meant that I thought doctors care about how their skills and education end up playing out in the health of the patient no matter the level of specialty.

Well, my first post was written hastily.  I may not have been clear.  

The thing about vaccines is that they are really a small thing, IMHO.  We argue on this forum, but I sometimes think the arguments are not entirely about vaccines - they are about ethics, control, trust, etc.  At the end of the day, most VPD's are rare as are vax reactions.  That is why I bristle at dismissing someone over not vaccinating.

Another thing, and while I know many people dislike the slippery-slope argument, I do find it has some validity.  Should a doctor dismiss a parent for allowing their kid to get fat?  Not exercise?  A parent for smoking?  Should a GP be able to dismiss me for being fat? All of the above have far higher risk factors than vaccination status.  

Part of me thinks a doctor should be able by law to dismiss a patient (maybe not in Canada where they are paid for by taxes, and would thus be beholden to government guidelines on providing care) but being allowed to does not equal should.  Dismissing a patient for anything but extreme non compliance on big issues seems off and cold to me.

Edited by purslaine - 1/14/12 at 4:32pm