She has "deficits"

[Dandelionkid]

I homeschooled until this grade 2 year with my dtr. I'm not worried about where she is at but I told her teacher she was likely behind on reading and writing compared to the rest of the class (sounds out words and sentences slowly, prints mostly capitals) . Today I stayed to ask the teacher some questions and she told me in front of my daughter "she definitely has deficits compared to the other grade two kids". I'm fine with hearing that in private but I am angry that she would compare my daughter to the other kids in front of my daughter and use the word deficit. 

My dd never brought it up and seemed fine with it so I won't go any farther with it (I just told the teacher I wasn't worried about her progress as long as there was progression of some type because I knew she would pick it up). 

Would this make you angry too?

[ollyoxenfree]

It was tactless for the teacher to conference with you in front of your DD. I would hope that she was encouraging and positive in terms of your DD's ability to catch up, work ethic, and any areas where she is ahead of the class. It's good that you demonstrated to your DD your confidence that she would progress by your response to the teacher. If you think this teacher makes a habit of these kinds of comments, it's probably worthwhile to say something to her about keeping things positive in front of your DD, to avoid problems in the future.

I expect your DD already realizes that some classmates are more advanced in reading and writing. It's not something that would be hidden in a 2nd grade class. Likely, there are a few who are struggling and she probably knows that too.

[whatsnextmom]

Originally Posted by Dandelionkid 

I homeschooled until this grade 2 year with my dtr. I'm not worried about where she is at but I told her teacher she was likely behind on reading and writing compared to the rest of the class (sounds out words and sentences slowly, prints mostly capitals) . Today I stayed to ask the teacher some questions and she told me in front of my daughter "she definitely has deficits compared to the other grade two kids". I'm fine with hearing that in private but I am angry that she would compare my daughter to the other kids in front of my daughter and use the word deficit. 

My dd never brought it up and seemed fine with it so I won't go any farther with it (I just told the teacher I wasn't worried about her progress as long as there was progression of some type because I knew she would pick it up). 

Would this make you angry t

Certainly not appropriate at that age. 

[melissa17s]

My passing thought is maybe she chose the word deficit because kids do not necessarily understand it.   My little wordy girl who always corrects us is in 2nd grade and does not know what it means. My 5th grader only vaguely understands it because he has adhd, so he has heard the term.   I am sure if the teacher had said she "is behind her classmates", it would have been more clear in terms of communicating with a 2nd grader.  Or maybe she did not feel your dd was paying attention to your conversation.

It is ok, too, to let the teacher know, if you do not want to discuss your dd in front of her.   

[Dandelionkid]

Originally Posted by melissa17s 

My passing thought is maybe she chose the word deficit because kids do not necessarily understand it.   My little wordy girl who always corrects us is in 2nd grade and does not know what it means. My 5th grader only vaguely understands it because he has adhd, so he has heard the term.   I am sure if the teacher had said she "is behind her classmates", it would have been more clear in terms of communicating with a 2nd grader.  Or maybe she did not feel your dd was paying attention to your conversation.

It is ok, too, to let the teacher know, if you do not want to discuss your dd in front of her.   

You're probably right- my dd would likely not know that term. Besides she has an over-abundance of confidence and would probably never expect a negative assessment :) I have a feeling she was in a tired haze and didn't understand at the moment or care to find out. 

I am going to have a meeting with the teacher later in the month to discuss her learning philosophy, daily agenda etc. I am sure we will discuss dd's progress and I am anxious to know if she uses negative language in that conversation. Hopefully it was a one time thing. I don't want my dd to have a teacher that notices deficits instead of opportunities in my kid. 

[melissa17s]

Please do not think deficit is a negative term.   It is a measurement.   If the students are unable to perform to standards then there is a deficit. It is standard school terminology.  There can be many possible reasons for a deficit, and you are lucky if you have a teacher that recognizes it and helps your dd proceed.  It is likely, that being in the school environment she will catch up with her peers, but if she does not, you do not want the teacher to over look a problem.   I would hope your dd's teacher has the best of intentions, and I think it is great that you are meeting with her to get to know her teaching philosophy.  

[Dandelionkid]

Originally Posted by melissa17s 

Please do not think deficit is a negative term.   It is a measurement.   If the students are unable to perform to standards then there is a deficit. It is standard school terminology.  There can be many possible reasons for a deficit, and you are lucky if you have a teacher that recognizes it and helps your dd proceed.  It is likely, that being in the school environment she will catch up with her peers, but if she does not, you do not want the teacher to over look a problem.   I would hope your dd's teacher has the best of intentions, and I think it is great that you are meeting with her to get to know her teaching philosophy.  

I don't agree with the standards in the first place which may be a problem. My philosophy of learning is more individualized. To compare my child in a negative way to peers is not helpful to the process imo. Each kid learns at a different pace and in different ways. I was really hoping Montessori would understand this- hopefully it does!

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by Dandelionkid 

I don't agree with the standards in the first place which may be a problem. My philosophy of learning is more individualized. To compare my child in a negative way to peers is not helpful to the process imo. Each kid learns at a different pace and in different ways. I was really hoping Montessori would understand this- hopefully it does!

I agree with the previous poster who said that this wasn't a negative statement by the teacher, but simply a statement of fact. One of my kids has special needs, when I talk to teachers about her, none of us are saying negative things, but we need to speak frankly about her strengths and weakness so that we can help her reach her potential.

I've read Holt, we started out as unschoolers, and my kids now attend a school based on progressive educational ideas. However, a child being seriously behind where most kids there age are is a sign -- either that the child hasn't received the appropriate instruction, or that something is going on with the child. The teacher was starting a dialogue with you because it is her job to sort that out -- if your child simply needs instruction that she hasn't received (and if so, what exactly, because your DD is not on the instructional level of most 2nd graders) or if something else is going on -- such as a vision problem, a fine motor problem, an LD, etc.

Ignoring milestones and how children compare to their peers can mask special needs, and that can be VERY detrimental to a child who needs MORE instruction, not less.

Also, your DD will quickly realize that she doesn't read as a well as many of her classmates, or write as neatly or as quickly. She may find that very motivating and work to catch up. But this isn't going to be a secret from her.

[Dandelionkid]

Quote:Originally Posted by Linda on the move 

I agree with the previous poster who said that this wasn't a negative statement by the teacher, but simply a statement of fact. One of my kids has special needs, when I talk to teachers about her, none of us are saying negative things, but we need to speak frankly about her strengths and weakness so that we can help her reach her potential.

I've read Holt, we started out as unschoolers, and my kids now attend a school based on progressive educational ideas. However, a child being seriously behind where most kids there age are is a sign -- either that the child hasn't received the appropriate instruction, or that something is going on with the child. The teacher was starting a dialogue with you because it is her job to sort that out -- if your child simply needs instruction that she hasn't received (and if so, what exactly, because your DD is not on the instructional level of most 2nd graders) or if something else is going on -- such as a vision problem, a fine motor problem, an LD, etc.

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Ignoring milestones and how children compare to their peers can mask special needs, and that can be VERY detrimental to a child who needs MORE instruction, not less.Also, your DD will quickly realize that she doesn't read as a well as many of her classmates, or write as neatly or as quickly. She may find that very motivating and work to catch up. But this isn't going to be a secret from her

Special needs or not, comparing kids negatively to other kids in front of them is just rude and potentially very hurtful for the child. Not necessary. Like I said, tell it to me in private- not in front of dd.

 In any case, I don't want her to have a teacher that only sees her skill-set in comparison to her classmates skill-set. In my dd's case I know that the skills (reading and writing) will come easily  to her with more practice. I am more concerned that her teacher foster her love for learning and curiosity about the world than focusing on just getting the skills up to grade two level (whatever significance that has- every kid is so different!). I will try to keep an open-mind about this teacher until I can have a good meeting with her.

I graduated from a professional medical degree with the skills but very little common sense or critical-thinking ability. The skills (IV's, catheters, dressing changes) are easy to learn. Learning how to learn, how to love learning,  how to think critically and with an open-mind is far more important to me than a particular skill associated with a particular age. 

[meemee]

Originally Posted by Dandelionkid 

 I am more concerned that her teacher foster her love for learning and curiosity about the world than focusing on just getting the skills up to grade two level (whatever significance that has- every kid is so different!). I will try to keep an open-mind about this teacher until I can have a good meeting with her.

i think you might be asking too much from the teacher. she IS focused on your dd picking up the skills that is needed for the class so that being behind doesnt affect your dd's self esteem in class. esp. since all the learning happening now is mostly boring math rules and reading and writing rules (not sure too much how different montessori is about this). i think the teachers ease off by 4th grade when the kids start all teh subjects that they briefly touch on before 4th grade.

dd had an awesome teacher in K. that teacher had taught higher grades before. and so it was imperative - almost her mission to make the kids leave K on par or a little behind rather than a lot. she tried her best to do a bunch of hands on fun learning projects too which the kids enjoyed but she didnt get to do as much as she would have liked to. 

i do think teachers try to instill curiosity in the child - but they also focus on what they should know now with their future in mind. 

i am sure when you have your parent teachers meeting she will point out all the great things that your dd can do.

i wouldnt be mad though. i'd let it go the first time. if she did it again, i'd think about it. 

did she just start school? does montessori do the same first month review thing as public schools. because if they do then your teacher might be even more worried - since it would imply dd was behind on first grade stuff. 

[philomom]

Yes, the teacher should have told you these things privately. You may need to have conference with her and the principal to insure this won't happen again. Instead, she should email you about the specific skills your child needs to come up to speed on so she can practice at home. With a little effort, she'll catch right up.

[JollyGG]

Originally Posted by philomom 

Yes, the teacher should have told you these things privately. You may need to have conference with her and the principal to insure this won't happen again. Instead, she should email you about the specific skills your child needs to come up to speed on so she can practice at home. With a little effort, she'll catch right up.

If it really really bothers you I might email the teacher, but I would not bring the principle in on this. That is unless you want a poor relationship with this teacher for the rest of the year. Bringing her boss in over something that is 1. Minor, 2. you haven't even discussed with her yet is overkill and will quickly sour your relationship with the teacher.

I agree with previous posters who said that deficits was probably meant a descriptive word not as an insult. To her she was making a statement of fact that she assumed all parties, including DD, needed to know. However, if you would like her to make sure that she doesn't talk about DD in front of her again tell her. She can't even know it bothers you unless you communicate that to her. I wouldn't make a big deal about it but I would say something if it bothered you.

School is going to be about certain benchmarks. Those benchmarks are based on what the majority of children can accomplish at that age. So, of course, the goal is to have your child at a similar level of ability as the rest of the class. The teacher wants to make sure that you DD is learning. And, honestly, it makes the class a lot easier to teach once everyone is at a grade appropriate level. If reading and writing are her areas of weakness these are bigger issues in a school setting. Second grade was when kids around here stop learning to read and start reading to learn. So you DD may not even be able to complete assignments that require a certain component of reading ability. Without decent writing skills your teacher finds she loses the ability to evaluate if you child has learned a concept or skill in class. It would be awesome if the teacher could visit with each child and figure out if they understood a concept, but with only one teacher and multiple students they must rely on written answers.
 

Why did you decide to stop homeschooling? I'm reading an undertone of disapproval in the way school works in general that may make you a bit sensitive to this.

[meetoo]

Originally Posted by Dandelionkid 

 In any case, I don't want her to have a teacher that only sees her skill-set in comparison to her classmates skill-set. In my dd's case I know that the skills (reading and writing) will come easily  to her with more practice. I am more concerned that her teacher foster her love for learning and curiosity about the world than focusing on just getting the skills up to grade two level (whatever significance that has- every kid is so different!). I will try to keep an open-mind about this teacher until I can have a good meeting with her.

I think the problem is the level you describe your DD at will make it difficult for her teacher to teach her in second grade. Her skill set is more of a k/just starting first level. To succeed in school she is going to need some help "catching up" to where her peers are. Kids in second grade are expected to be reading fairly well and be able to write a paragraph with proper punctuation/spelling going in.   I do not mean this negatively. It's simply a fact. The curriculum isn't designed to be teaching those skills, just reinforcing/using/extending them.  She will be expect for example to think critically about her reading and write about it. But if she can't read the book or write about it, she is going to be in a world of trouble. Her ability to catch up isn't the issue, the problem is how long will it take her to catch up? She isn't really going to be able do second grade until she is able to master the k/first grade materiel. How are her math skills? 

When my dd went back to school after homeschooling(starting second grade) she was behind in writing. Her writing was sloppy, her spelling was terrible, and she felt spacing was optional. LOL. . She did use punctuation/capitalization. In her case her teacher worked with her in the classroom where she was and she did improve greatly by the end of the year.She still ended the year a bit behind in writing, but honestly the apples don't fall to far from the tree, so she may always be a bit behind in writing . Her other skills were on par with second grade, so she was able to do just fine (although her reading was held up by her writing level for awhile) in the classroom. I think she would have really struggled if her reading was behind too. She would have required extra support out of the classroom. If your DD's math skills are behind also and her birthday is close to the cut off you might want to put her in 1st grade instead. If she is an older child for the grade I would meet with the teacher very soon, so she can start meeting with the reading specialist and get caught up. If you were more of an unschooler and never really taught her to read/write then she may catch up very quickly with a small amount of instruction. If you had been trying to teach her at home and it wasn't sinking in you might want to ask for an evaluation to be done on her to pinpoint the problem. 

Oh and as far as the teacher goes if you asked her in front of your DD then I wouldn't think she was wrong for answering. If she brought it up to you in front of your dd/other children I would be upset. 

[meemee]

Originally Posted by meetoo 

(starting second grade) she was behind in writing. Her writing was sloppy, her spelling was terrible, and she felt spacing was optional. LOL. .

my dd has never been homeschooled but even in second grade she had a problem with this. i think its developmental. esp. the writing.

dd hates writing. she thinks too fast. but in 3rd her teacher worked with her (i did not do anything extra at home) and suddenly by end 3rd grade she started writing better. dd's spelling has improved but its still behind that normal - inspite of reading a lot. i think she will always be a bad speller coz she races - like she'll always get 99 in math coz she makes silly mistakes. that is her personality. 

OP's dd doesnt seem to be that much out of the norm. i knew a few second grade students who had same issues as her dd. for them it was developmental. two of those kids' reading took off mid semester and by the end of the year they had qualified for GATE.

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by philomom 

Yes, the teacher should have told you these things privately. You may need to have conference with her and the principal to insure this won't happen again. Instead, she should email you about the specific skills your child needs to come up to speed on so she can practice at home. With a little effort, she'll catch right up.

I usually agree with all your posts, but not this one. I think sending the teacher an email and asking for a private conference is more appropriate. This simply is not a stage to bring the principal in because there has been effort to resolve it.

There is also no guarantee that this child will "catch right up."  Sometimes, when kids are significantly behind their peers, something is going on. Writing in all caps is significantly behind in 2nd grade.

The OPers assumption is that the child is fine and being behind is no big deal, but the teacher is in the position of teaching a child who is not capable of 2nd grade work.

[purslaine]

I would be annoyed over bringing it up the way she did in front of your daughter.  

I hope she also spoke of good things about your daughter. I have had teachers who only addressed "deficits"  (and no, I do not like the word)  - and it ticks me off.  Children are whole beings - I want to hear the strengths and weaknesses.  

I do think it is Ok to bring up weaknesses in front of a child - but she should be concise and offer positive feedback as well.  Ex:  Jody is an excellent storyteller - but needs to work on her punctuation a bit more.  We have some fun worksheets she can bring home and work on if she likes.

You may need to be proactive in telling the teacher your goals  (love of learning - the skills will come) and how you like to communicate  (in private).  So many parents have different POV and communication styles.  It might help.

[Dandelionkid]

Originally Posted by kathymuggle 

I would be annoyed over bringing it up the way she did in front of your daughter.  

I hope she also spoke of good things about your daughter. I have had teachers who only addressed "deficits"  (and no, I do not like the word)  - and it ticks me off.  Children are whole beings - I want to hear the strengths and weaknesses.  

I do think it is Ok to bring up weaknesses in front of a child - but she should be concise and offer positive feedback as well.  Ex:  Jody is an excellent storyteller - but needs to work on her punctuation a bit more.  We have some fun worksheets she can bring home and work on if she likes.

You may need to be proactive in telling the teacher your goals  (love of learning - the skills will come) and how you like to communicate  (in private).  So many parents have different POV and communication styles.  It might help.

I agree- bringing up weaknesses in front of her in the matter that you describe would be fine with me- I would actually welcome it as a way to discuss with dd what we need to practice at home. I will try to have an open discussion with her teacher when we meet with her. In any case, I have calmed down a bit and realize that even if dd knew what her teacher was talking about- it isn't the end of the world. She is definitely not lacking in confidence lol. 

[captain optimism]

I think I would write to the teacher and express concern that she used the word "deficit" in front of any child. I don't think it's reasonable to assume that children don't understand words. I think your daughter probably already knows she's not reading at the same level as other kids. 

In an email, you can also express your commitment to reinforce what your child learns in class, and your confidence that she's capable of catching up. You're the teacher's ally here, not her competition. You know that and she needs to know that.

We had a long-term sub who scared me by her seemingly low expectations and her deficits (!) as a writer. She turned out to be great--my son's writing, which is his biggest challenged, improved more with her than with the teacher who could express herself better. Sometimes the teacher makes a mistake and it doesn't turn out to be indicative of how she teaches.  

[lindberg99]

I would be annoyed too. I remember I stopped in my son's first grade room for something (probably handing out memos for a PTO event) and his teacher launched in to how unorganized my son was. I know I did not ask her anything about DS, she brought it up out of the blue. There was no one else in the room (the kids were probably at art or gym) but I didn't like it even then. I think if a teacher wants to talk to you about your child, they should call you or set up a meeting, not just start talking about it where whoever is walking by can hear. I would have been more annoyed if she had done it in front of my son. I've seen our principal do this too, not in front of the child but in front of other parents. When the 6th graders went on a 3 day field trip, she started telling two of the moms who were there waiting how their daughters were the only ones who got homesick. I didn't think that was appropriate, yes it was a minor issue but all it takes is some parent overhearing it, telling her kid about it and that kid telling everyone in the class and next thing, those girls are getting teased for being homesick.

What were you talking about when she brought it up? Were you talking about your DD's reading, etc or were you talking about something else (like a class party or book fair or something)? The only thing I can think is that if you were talking about your DD's school work, maybe she thought it was okay to bring it up since you were talking about your DD in front of her? Parents at our elem school often bring their kids to conferences so some parents don't mind talking about their kid with the teacher in front of the child.

[minkin03]

IMO regardless of whether or not the OP dd understands the word deficit I'm sure the dd could understand that it wasn't a good thing. Especially if she can already tell other kids are ahead of her. So definitely not appropriate to have that conversation with her dd present.