Anybody want to convince me I'm not pregnant? I want to convince myself.

[Thandiwe]

I had my last baby (#3) Feb 2010.  I had my first PP AF late on Aug 9, 2011/early Aug 10 am.  I tested ov with a kit as we're TTC.  I got no reads (I haven't started charting - I've never done it before and need to start).  I stopped by the weekend of Aug 20/21'ish.  On Aug 29 (CD 20/21), I swear I ovulated late in the evening based on CM.  So, we dtd that night.  By 9-2-11 (4 days later), I started having a serious case of nausea, fatigue, and tender breasts.  That continued through the week.  My period was expected 9-6/9-7, but it didn't show up.  In the past, I tend to bleed heavier and more frequently, not more spaced out.  My history is not long gaps between periods but actually longer, more frequent periods. 

On 9-8, I had a really bad set of aches in my uterus that felt almost like contractions while I was nursing my 18 month old.  It was so painful, I thought for sure once I got up (I was in a meeting), I would be bleeding.  I grabbed my Diva Cup, went to the bathroom, but only had CM discharge, rather heavy.  My cervix was very, very tender and sore, too.  That continued all day, so I went in for an HCG quantitative test.  The next day, the results were in: less than 5, or not pregnant.  But the next day, 9-9-11, my uterus was better, calmer, happier.  My cervix stopped aching.  In fact, I had two times when I wiped that day and had what - after seeing it 3 times now - was very clearly mucus plug, thick, rubber cement-like discharge.  Not a lot, but obviously there. 

Now here we are at 9-11.  Still no period, the nausea is getting better, and the nipple tenderness is there, but slightly better.  It's getting better, but I've often had spells where I feel like I'm having a slightly more rapid pulse, not troublesome but almost like I could faint.  And flushed; something hormonal was obviously happening.  This was most prominent about 4-5 days after I believe I ov'd.

Today, the only symptoms I have are a more prevalent CM discharge, semi-tender nipples, and the need to pee a lot; not volume, just intense frequency.  I did a cervical check today, and I swear it's closed.  I feel nuts thinking that, but I swear it's closed, and there's a substantial amount of CM around it.  I tested urine this am, and it was negative. 

I'm weepy, forgetful, breaking out with zits, and still without a period.  I get that periods can be irregular while breastfeeding, though.  But I had a textbook period last month, for me.  And like I said, I tend to bleed sooner and longer, not less frequent.  My little guy isn't nursing more often, so it would seem unlikely that I would get one period and then nothing, right?  It was very heavy, definitely not spotting.

What in the world is going on with me????  Here's an outline:

8-9-11 ~ Period

8-29-11 ~ Suspected ovulation, based on cervical position and discharge; DTD that night

9-2-11 ~ Symptoms hit hard (nausea, fatigue, tenderness, rapid heartbeat, cramping/ache)

9-6-11 ~ No period; 4 weeks since last

9-8-11 ~ Have awful episodes of strong cramping/aching with CM discharge and sore cervix

9-8-11 ~ Neg quant HCG blood draw (less than 5 was all she would tell me)

9-9-11 ~ Cervical discharge is rubbery two times, from there, increased CM at all times

9-11-11 ~ Negative urine test; cervix appears closed; frequent urination, but nausea subsiding - still tender nipples

What is wrong with me?  Am I crazy?  I keep trying to convince myself I'm not pregnant; I really am.  My heart says I am, when I don't think about it, but I am so tired of hoping for the best.  Maybe I'm wanting to think I am but I'm really not?

Has anyone else who is still breastfeeding when period returns (remember, I'm 18 mos PP already) have irregular periods?  This has never happened before; last time I was pregnant, I was still bf'ing, but my period was fairly regular, I believe.  I'm not cramping like I would expect to be if AF was coming.  Maybe it's just skipping a month?  Blood and urine tests have become so sensitive. 

Please convince me it's highly unlikely I am pregnant.  I am losing hope every day and really want a definitive answer one way or another.  This is nearly a week late for my period. :(
 

[Kyamo]

If you did ovulate on the 29th, you're only 13 DPO today. Depending on how long your normal LP is, your period may not even be late yet. 4 weeks since last period doesn't matter if you ovulated late, and your guess for O date is CD20. That said, I would expect a 10DPO blood test to be accurate, so you probably aren't pregnant.

[Thandiwe]

Thank you for your response.  That's what I was thinking, but in my backwards wishing, I keep wondering if I could actually feel implantation on Thursday (the same day I had the blood draw).  Could that (and the very sore cervix) be what I felt that day?  Or is it nearly impossible to feel that?  What in the world was I feeling that day?  Since then, a lot of symptoms have started to subside. 

I'm guessing you're right.  If LP average is 14 days, then I guess I wouldn't be late until after tomorrow.  Which would make sense with latest hormonal fluctuations being PMS.  Darned crazy cycles starting up!  I just wish I could have this period and be done already, knowing definitively. 

[Thandiwe]

Is it true that implantation can happen as late as 12 dpo?  Or is that really rare?  And do you get HCG readings or not before implantation?

[Jaimee]

As the pp said, if you did O on the 29th or the next day, then today (9/11) would 12-13 DPO.  While implantation does occur between 8 and 10 DPO 84% of the time, you could have late implantation accounting for a B- at 10 DPO and the HPT- now.  However, late implantation would not likely cause the symptoms you describe earlier in your LP.  And generally I would say severe symptoms on 3-4 DPO would not be related to pregnancy, but related to ovulation, illness, or hormonal fluctuations.  It's entirely possible you O'd when experiencing the cramping/discharge around 9/8.  You may have geared up to O on the 29th, but didn't succeed- very common when breastfeeding.  That would only put you at 3 DPO today.  Did you DTD around that time by any chance?

So my guess is that you're experiencing an odd cycle with hormonal fluctuations that are causing your unusual symptoms.  But, I do not underestimate a woman's intuition, so if your heart is telling you yes, then I would just wait a few more days and if there is no sign of AF, test again.  What HPT did you use last time?  Make sure it has a sensitivity of 25.  If you  get a BFN and no sign of AF still, keep in mind that you might need to wait another week if you O'd even later. 

Oh, and if AF does find you... start charting!  It would be good to see if you have a fertile length LP since you are still breastfeeding.  Just post if you need help getting going!

[Thandiwe]

Completely makes sense.  I'm over-thinking it all, wishing. 

I expect that AF will make an appearance, most likely just irregular while it jump starts after it's long hiatus.  Hopefully soon so I can stop going crazy wondering.  I'm going to chart once it begins, need to pick up a BBT therm.  What programs are there that are available free and online to chart?  Can you tell I'm completely unfamiliar with this??    I'm generally pretty in-tune with things based on cervical position and discharge, but I do want to do something more definite.  I'm in charge of the LLL library in our town, and I believe we have the Toni Wesschler book.  Guess I'll go grab that and read up!

Thanks once again for your replies.  My husband is no help; he keeps trying to tell me I'm pregnant and it's too early.  I keep telling him that's not helping me by getting my hopes up when all the obvious says opposite.  Now when I'm not, I need him to be the pessimist he was during the last 3 pregnancies! 

ETA:  I used First Reponse today, non-digital.

[Jaimee]

Here's a post I typed out for another MDC member.  I apologize for anything you already know, but it should cover the basics and help you get going!

Start as soon as you can since the first day of red blood is cycle day 1.  Pick up a copy of Taking Charge of Your Fertility by Toni Weschler at the library (or buy it).  You don't need to read it cover to cover to get started, but it really is an excellent resource.

You can pick up a basal body thermometer (BBT) at your local drug store.  Some are better than others.  I prefer ones that take longer than 30 seconds (they seem more accurate to me) and can hold two temperatures in memory (this is especially handy when you wake up, temp, and go back to sleep- you can look at and record the temp later).  The Walgreens thermometer gets generally bad reviews.  BD gets good reviews. 

When temping you want to focus on a few things: taking it at the same time each morning (within 30 minutes); taking it after a solid block of sleep (3 hours is usually recommended); and making sure that you don't get out of bed, sit up, drink water, or fall asleep before or while temping.  So basically you just wake up, roll over, temp, and go back to sleep or get up. 

Some women are really sensitive to changes in sleep patterns or ambient temperature (like if your room is hot one morning and not the next or you wake up snuggled under a warm blanket and the next are out of the covers).  But other women find that they can see their pattern despite numerous night wakings, not getting a 3 hour block of sleep prior to temping, or environmental changes.  Other things that can affect temp- pretty much the same things that can delay ovulation: travel, stress, diet changes, injury, illness, and strenuous exercise.

Next, cervical fluid (CF) is something you can observe throughout the day- whenever you feel it, whenever you see it (while wiping, on your panties), etc.  Here is my general guide to CF:

Dry: you'll feel dry all day and there is nothing on your panties

Sticky: you'll generally feel dry and there will be a bit of staining- usually yellow- on your panties.  It might be a bit crumbly or clumpy.

Creamy: generally you'll feel a little wet, lotiony in texture, could be slippery when you wipe, often it will stand up on your panties

Wet: you'll feel wet and your panties will likely be wet- maybe even soak through, may look like skim milk (I rarely get this)

Eggwhite: you might actually feel it slipping out of you throughout the day and it might fall out of you while using the bathroom, stretchy- it may stretch from you to the TP for several inches- and usually clear or yellow tinted, often quite profuse

Temp and CF are the two basic fertility signs you need to chart.  There are other signs you can record like cervical position (CP), but it's not necessary unless your temps and CF are not showing a clear pattern.

So what you're going to see is a group of low temps from the start of AF, which is cycle day 1 (CD 1) until the day after ovulation (O) when you should see a spike in temp or steady climb to a higher group of temps.  The days between O and AF are called your luteal phase (LP).  Generally it is said that you need at least 10 days to sustain a pregnancy.  The average length is 12-14 days.  Your LP will not vary much- usually just by one or two days cycle to cycle.  But your O day could vary considerably.  So when you see O on your chart you can then predict when AF should show based on your average LP length.  If you go 3 days past your longest LP length then that is an excellent sign of pregnancy.  If you get 18 high temps after O that is 99% accurate- just like an HPT.

Likewise your CF will go from dry just after AF to sticky, to creamy, to EW as O approaches.  You may or may not go through all the different types of CF prior to O or you could skip from dry to creamy or dry to EW.  You might have many days of creamy and one or two of EW or you might have 3 or 4 days of EW with hardly any creamy.  It all depends on the woman and that particular cycle.  But after O you will dry up.  It could be instantaneous- like the day of the spike you're dry.  Or it could decrease slower- EW to creamy to stick to dry.  But usually you will dry up within a few days and then may or may not experience a few more days of creamy or even wet/EW later in your LP, just prior to AF.

Anyway, that should get you started!  Post if you have questions and use www.fertilityfriend.com to share your chart!  Good luck!

[Thandiwe]

Thank you, thank you, thank you!! 

[Jaimee]

Originally Posted by Thandiwe 

Is it true that implantation can happen as late as 12 dpo?  Or is that really rare?  And do you get HCG readings or not before implantation?

I didn't see this prior to posting before... Yes implantation can occur as late as 12 DPO (or as early as 6).   Some studies have even shown 13 or 14 DPO, but these were with fertility treatments and the chance of miscarriage increases quite a bit the later implantation gets.  This is partly b/c the embryo does not have enough time to build up hCG and signal the corpus luteum to stick around and not shed the uterine lining and partly b/c embryos that implant late tend to be less viable.  Implantation will occur between 8 and 10 DPO 84% of the time so you can estimate the math on implantation occurring earlier or later than that range- not common, but possible. It is my understanding that the embryo must touch the uterine lining in order to start producing hCG.
 

[Thandiwe]

Originally Posted by Jaimee 

I didn't see this prior to posting before... Yes implantation can occur as late as 12 DPO (or as early as 6).   Some studies have even shown 13 or 14 DPO, but these were with fertility treatments and the chance of miscarriage increases quite a bit the later implantation gets.  This is partly b/c the embryo does not have enough time to build up hCG and signal the corpus luteum to stick around and not shed the uterine lining and partly b/c embryos that implant late tend to be less viable.  Implantation will occur between 8 and 10 DPO 84% of the time so you can estimate the math on implantation occurring earlier or later than that range- not common, but possible. It is my understanding that the embryo must touch the uterine lining in order to start producing hCG.
 

And this is where I'm wondering.  If you figure I implanted on dpo 10, which was when I had a lot of pain and tenderness, same day as blood draw, say my hcg level was 1 (she said less than 5).  If it takes every 48 hours on average to double, Thurs was 1, Sat was 2, Mon would be 4, Wed would be 8, Fri -16, Sun - 32.  I wouldn't be able to detect it via urine for another week from today.  In my head, I know it seems unlikely given everything.  However, I check my cervix often, and it is very definitely thickened and I would swear closed.  I *cannot* get a fingertip in there; there's something soft in the way...  I know how it normally feels, I have checked for years (though I can never reach in the heart of pg), and this is definitely sealed up.  But if you look at it like this, it would make sense that I couldn't detect yet.  If 8-10 dpo is average for implant, then 10 dpo isn't really abnormal.  If I got my blood drawn that day, then it would seem there wouldn't be any hcg. 

And hence my riddle.  I thought I read somewhere that elevated progesterone can cause nausea, fatigue and tender nipples.  And I also thought I read (I don't know how accurate these info sources were) that progesterone levels rise between fertilization and before implantation, which is why many people end up *feeling* pregnant within a few days of fertilization.  True?

*sigh*  I need to stop thinking about it, but we decided to TTC over a month ago now, and here I am wishing I could have an answer.  I just want my AF to show if it's going to so I can stop guessing.

[Jaimee]

Yes, high progesterone levels can absolutely cause nausea.  The cause of morning sickness is actually not known.  While it is usually assumed to be high hCG levels, it may in fact be high progesterone or both.  If your progesterone was unusually high after O, then you could get nausea from it.  I personally think that symptoms prior to implantation time are caused by hormonal fluctuations associated with O its aftermath, whether that is higher progesterone or other hormones, unrelated to pregnancy.

Typically hCG levels are higher than 5 very shortly after implantation, but it is certainly possible to have the scenario that you are describing.  I would imagine that you'll have your answer within the next 3 days, but if you ended up Oing pretty late then you might be waiting more like a week.  Keep us posted!  

[Thandiwe]

I will!  I've made myself promise I won't test again until Friday to be sure it's a good chunk of time.  Hopefully that will be enough time.  If not, I don't know what to think or why my period won't just jump start already.

[Thandiwe]

Eh, cervix is really low (moving around quite a bit), and I'm pretty sure I'm not pg.  I'm bummed, but largely I'm bummed that things are so irregular and I don't even know when I can expect AF.  Without my period, I can't really do much charting and waiting for O. 

[Jaimee]

It is very common for the cervix to move and change texture throughout the LP.  I really wouldn't read too much into that.  In fact, I usually advise women not to bother with CP during their LP.  You could check around the time of expected AF (well, the two possible times of expected AF...) and if it is still closed instead of opening slightly to allow blood to pass, that is a good sign. 

[Thandiwe]

It is now past the second expected time, and it's high and definitely closed.    I just want answers already....  I made a gyn appt for this next Tuesday because if I'm not, I expect I have cysts (I had them early in my teen years), or something.  I am not imagining all these symptoms...  I will test the day before (Monday) just to be sure I'm really not before I go in for an annual exam.

[Jaimee]

I was thinking tomorrow was just past expected AF if you O'd around the 29th and if you ended up Oing around the 8th, then you'd only be 5 DPO today and need another week or so for testing.  But no harm in an annual exam, even if you are pregnant b/c they would do that anyway!  Good luck and keep us updated.

[Thandiwe]

Hmmmm... I'm not following you?  I ov'ed on the 29/30th and believe I *implanted* on the 8th.  So this is only 5 days past implant.  I *believe* I've read you can't test urine accurately until a week past implantation??  Period was expected on 9-6-11, but if you figure a 2 week LP, then I guess the latest date was yesterday, 9-12-11 for expected AF.  Does that make any sense?  Is it too early *if I did implant on 9-8-11* to accurately test urine 4 days past implant (that was yesterdays test, don't have the heart to check again for a few days)?

[Jaimee]

Many women get accurate results just a couple days after implantation.  There are a bunch of stats on Fertility Friend's website where women are consistently getting BFP's at 10 and 11 DPO.  Since the average implantation time is 8-10 DPO, this would only be a few days after implantation on day 8 or 9.  But I think the overall average is still 12-14 days, suggesting that about 4 days is typically needed.  It all depends how quickly the embryo is producing hCG and how quickly you are metabolizing the hCG into your urine.  Every embryo and every woman is different!

So if you O'd on the 29th you'd be 15 DPO today and that really should yield an accurate result unless you are not the average woman.    Did you say you tested yesterday?  If you O'd around the 8th (instead of implanted on the 8th) then you'd need to wait, obviously- probably another week or so. 

[Thandiwe]

Perhaps its just a luteal cyst then. :(  Something is up, hopefully find out Tuesday.

[gozal]

Just saw this thread and hoping for a happy update!
 

Originally Posted by Jaimee 

 It is my understanding that the embryo must touch the uterine lining in order to start producing hCG.

From what I've read, the zygote/blast/embryo starts producing hCG right away after fertilization, but it is not the same form as the beta-hCG that hpts and blood tests screen for. Some tests do, but they are not commonly used.