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The Skeptical OB - Page 3

post #41 of 192

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Edited by KmAndrews - 1/2/12 at 4:48pm
post #42 of 192


May I ask you a few questions?

 

I would like to know what prompted you to have a MW attented birth?  Was it covered by your Insurance?  Was it someone that was recommened to you?  Did you ever see an OB?  Was your DH on board with a MW attended birth?  I think it would be good to clarify how you came about the decision for yourself.  Many women get caught up the idea of having their babies naturally and sometimes can not see it any other way.  For the many that have had beautiful home births that's wonderful news just as women who have had wonderful hospital births.  So please share. 
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by KmAndrews View Post

Failing to recognized my son was posterior despite a very long labor and excruciating back pain and being posterior prior to labor, just points to the general lack incompetence of a system that is "certifing" woman that have education and training based off of one sided nonmedical books that you can buy at Barnes and Noble.  That is Information that I needed prior to giving birth.  When they told me they had extensive training I did not realize that meant that they stayed up late reading Ina May's guide to childbirth.



 

post #43 of 192

How absurd. The women commenting are thoughtful and kind. They are trying to offer advice and condolences. Would you be happier if everyone lied about their feelings? It seems that if you don't fully agree with someone who is opposed to homebirth, then you are rude and ignorant. There is some very deep denial going on here.

post #44 of 192

I have a difficult time believing that. If you are truly so impressionable that you make choices about your children based on comments on threads, then you should perhaps realize the maturity it takes to be a parent. 

post #45 of 192

There is a difference between gently warning people and screaming in their faces that their stupid and that they need to make a different choice. Many, many women who choose homebirth are well aware of the risk, probably more so than women who choose to birth at the hospital, believing nothing will ever go wrong.

post #46 of 192

Avery's Mamma, I must say I'm here with my eyes wide open in surprize. I thought when you directly asked this mother for more information we would find some dark side to these midwives that would help us see that some midwives shouldn't be allowed to care for anyone.   Km Andrews is  really saying the undiagnosed posterior was the reason for the CP and it is therefore the midwife's fault!  I just hope those women reading this who might have a baby that is posterior prenatally or during labor realize this is another example of normal variations in normal labor. Yes, labor is generally longer, more in the back and the pushing phase is usually longer.  This is not a high-risk situation necessitating a hospital, an operating room, and an obstetrician.  In fact, if you have an OP baby and are under the care of an OB, expect an unnecessary c-section and the medical reason will be "failure to progress." There's lots of good information on the internet and good birth books that can give you information about avoiding/changing an OP position.

post #47 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by KmAndrews View Post

Failing to recognized my son was posterior despite a very long labor and excruciating back pain and being posterior prior to labor, just points to the general lack incompetence of a system that is "certifing" woman that have education and training based off of one sided nonmedical books that you can buy at Barnes and Noble.  That is Information that I needed prior to giving birth.  When they told me they had extensive training I did not realize that meant that they stayed up late reading Ina May's guide to childbirth.



1. There is something wrong with women in your area not being able to get their hands on accurate information regarding the history of complaints, injury and death for midwives practicing in your area. That needs to change, ASAP. Were I a resident of your state, I would be all up on that. If you, or anyone else, ever needs me to sign a petition, I'm all over it...and I'll pass it along too.

 

2. Midwives who "have education and training based off of one sided nonmedical books that you can buy at Barnes and Noble" should be easy to spot from a hundred miles off. If you cannot identify a midwife who has "Trained" herself in a coffee shop at Barnes and Noble and hire this woman, it is because YOU have not done enough research to ask the kinds of questions which would easily enable you to see the glaring lack of education.

 

3. The fact that you did not research the rules and regs regarding midwives in your state, to gain a better understanding of what the requirements and pre-qualifications are, is on YOU. The state of Oregon is dropping the ball HUGE time by not making sure that more systems are in place to help women in that state hook up with midwives that are actually competent...but even in the world of hospital medicine, where becoming an OB is a VERY regimented and well regulated process...you can find TERRIBLE doctors who are absolutely dangerous and it is our job as mothers to spot those individuals as best we can. Before I engaged the services of a midwife, while I was still researching whether homebirth was for me, I knew the ins and outs of the entire qualification process, what was entailed, the government agencies involved and what watchdog groups, if any, were making sure that numbers were being reported and complaints were being followed up on. I shake my head at any mother who would bother engaging a midwife without knowing what a person has to do to become a midwife in her state. That's just silly. Or maybe I just take things too seriously? Or am not trusting enough?? Wait, I thought I was some peace love and patchouli "go with the good vibes and ignore the facts" type....oh, nope, really dead set on not leaving any stone unturned when picking the care providers who will assist me in giving my kid a good start.

 

4. I know for a fact that there are some damn decent midwives in your state. Some people take it as their personal responsibility to be as educated as they truly need to be and keep up with their ongoing education, despite there not being laws in place that make that mandatory. Your state is doing a wretched job regulating this....some people are taking advantage of that...but there are some VERY safe midwives to deliver with, at home, in your state.

 

5. What you're telling me, is that they said "I have extensive training" and you said "oh, good to know!" - and that was the end of that conversation? And your message here, on the homebirth forum, is that homebirth is dangerous????

 

6. What would the midwives have done differently, had they realized that your baby was posterior? Long, hard back labor is difficult and every woman I know who has had a posterior baby has complained bitterly about it...I had horrendous back labor with my DD, despite her being perfectly positioned and I know it's not pleasant. But women endure long, hard, grueling labor every day at home....some of them with posterior babies, some of them not. Did you tell them you wanted to transfer and they refused? What did they do? What SHOULD they have done?

 

You are absolutely sure that your midwives were horrible. Their treatment of you and your family after your birth seems like excellent evidence of this fact. =[' I believe you....I truly do....but you haven't yet said anything about your birth that doesn't sound like a thousand other birth stories I've heard....and yet, you use it as a cautionary tale against homebirth.

 

 

All I'm asking you to do, is to stop coming to the homebirth forum for the sole purpose of scaring women away from homebirth with a story that doesn't actually have anything to do with homebirth being dangerous. It has EVERYTHING to do with making sure that you hire a competent birth worker and not a dangerous and reckless, uneducated moron for a birth attendant....but that's an item that should be at the top of every expecting mothers (who wishes to be attended) checklist in the first place.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by KmAndrews View Post

That is Information that I needed prior to giving birth.  When they told me they had extensive training I did not realize that meant that they stayed up late reading Ina May's guide to childbirth.

 

This honestly is my deepest frustration in trying to discuss homebirth on the internet. This couple of sentences just breaks my heart. Every time I hear a woman say something like this "I wish I had known before.....xyz" - it busts me up inside.

 

Why was it someone elses job to make sure you knew that this woman wasn't educated? Did you so much as glance at the wall, to see if there were any plaques or certificates hanging there? Did you ask a single person or visit a single state website to see what the process for becoming a midwife is in your state??

 

I am honestly not trying to make you feel bad.....I'm just upset and frustrated that you would come to the homebirth forum and try to scare women and make blanket statements about how dangerous homebirth is, when, come to find out, you didn't even double check the standards and practices for becoming a midwife in your state, prior to hiring someone to help you deliver. Do you see how wrong that is?

 

Here we are, people who really believe in birth choice and people having the right to choose homebirth.....some of us work tirelessly in our communities to try and spread the message of empowered birth....and you are here spreading a message of fearing birth, when you didn't even properly prepare yourself for choosing a midwife?

 

I'm not saying that your choice resulted in your sons injury....because again, I believe the research that has been published lately that would suggest that your birth probably had nothing to do with your sons condition....but the fact that you would come and tell a group of tirelessly self-educated,  strong women that they should be fearful and rethink their birth choices based on your birth story....when you didn't even realize that you live in a state where there are absolutely HORRIBLE regulations in place, is absolutely infuriating to me.

 

INFURIATING.

post #48 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by joycnm View Post

Avery's Mamma, I must say I'm here with my eyes wide open in surprize. I thought when you directly asked this mother for more information we would find some dark side to these midwives that would help us see that some midwives shouldn't be allowed to care for anyone.   Km Andrews is  really saying the undiagnosed posterior was the reason for the CP and it is therefore the midwife's fault!  I just hope those women reading this who might have a baby that is posterior prenatally or during labor realize this is another example of normal variations in normal labor. Yes, labor is generally longer, more in the back and the pushing phase is usually longer.  This is not a high-risk situation necessitating a hospital, an operating room, and an obstetrician.  In fact, if you have an OP baby and are under the care of an OB, expect an unnecessary c-section and the medical reason will be "failure to progress." There's lots of good information on the internet and good birth books that can give you information about avoiding/changing an OP position.



I can't get over this situation. I really can't. I'm so sad about it. I know the state of Oregon is sucking big time at regulating midwives....not having access to numbers is just ridiculous....but mothers not realizing their chosen midwife doesn't actually have any kind of education is, stunning to me. I absolutely knew everything about the process of becoming a midwife in my state, the commission responsible for overseeing the council of midwives who handle dicsipline and termination of midwives, etc....just, everything...I knew everything about it. But I still didn't trust the government to make sure my midwife was truly competent. I knew that for sure, not because she was in good standing with my state, or even because I checked her references, looked her up on line, etc.....I knew that for SURE because I interviewed the crap out of her.

post #49 of 192


Right but the point of advocating for safe and well planned out homebirths is also to listen and not disregard.  I can't speak for Avery but I want clear information and not fear mongering.  Don't tell me if I'm going into the hospital that the OB's will force a CS on me so they can make their T time then somehow infect me and my baby with some nasty infection.  As well as don't tell me if I'm gunning for a home birth that I'm an idiot and me and my baby are gonna die.  How would any of that give me any insight and help me make an informed decision?
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by joycnm View Post

Avery's Mamma, I must say I'm here with my eyes wide open in surprize. I thought when you directly asked this mother for more information we would find some dark side to these midwives that would help us see that some midwives shouldn't be allowed to care for anyone.   Km Andrews is  really saying the undiagnosed posterior was the reason for the CP and it is therefore the midwife's fault!  I just hope those women reading this who might have a baby that is posterior prenatally or during labor realize this is another example of normal variations in normal labor. Yes, labor is generally longer, more in the back and the pushing phase is usually longer.  This is not a high-risk situation necessitating a hospital, an operating room, and an obstetrician.  In fact, if you have an OP baby and are under the care of an OB, expect an unnecessary c-section and the medical reason will be "failure to progress." There's lots of good information on the internet and good birth books that can give you information about avoiding/changing an OP position.



 

post #50 of 192



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by KmAndrews View Post

Posterior was NOT the cause . . . it was just information.  I am not sure why that is confusing people. I repeat Posterior was NOT the cause.  Never said it was. 

Quote:
Originally Posted by KmAndrews View Post

Failing to recognized my son was posterior despite a very long labor and excruciating back pain and being posterior prior to labor, just points to the general lack incompetence of a system that is "certifing" woman that have education and training based off of one sided non medical books that you can buy at Barnes and Noble.  That is Information that I needed prior to giving birth.  When they told me they had extensive training I did not realize that meant that they stayed up late reading Ina May's guide to childbirth.



I'm trying very hard to hear what you are saying and understand what it is that I should be cautioned about.

 

I have had 2 home births.

 

I took risks that there is no way I would have been allowed to take in a hospital with these births. 3 weeks post dates, prolonged/staled/slow progressing 53 hour labor, posterior baby (I did not consider this a risk, and I still don't), hemorrhage and retained placenta, 7 days of broken water before birth, just to name a few. I took these risks with the full knowledge of what I was doing. At all times transfer was on the table as an option. I did seek standard medical backup for monitoring, and was prepared to stay should there be any sign that the baby was not doing well. I have been through non stress tests, bio/physical profiles, near constant blood pressure, temperature and fetal heart tone monitoring. My midwife and I were not guessing, we were not winging it and praying everything would be fine. I was making choices, my midwife was there to support me as long as the baby and I were still within an acceptable realm of safety.

 

I am 18 weeks pregnant with my 3rd child. This time around everything about my situation is different. I still want a home birth, but I'm not 100% positive that is the best option for me this time. I have decided to sign up for standard care with a midwife/OB hospital based practice. I am also working with my same home birth midwife. At the moment, I'm getting the best of both worlds.

 

I am sharing a brief history of my birthing experience to let you know that I am not coming from a place of attack. I am coming from a place very similar to yours. I have a child with a life long mental and physical disability. He almost died from cancer last year, cancer that I still feel guilty about not catching earlier, maybe preventing that awful 2 week period in PICU were we thought he was going to die. He is still getting treatment for his cancer, and will for 2 more years. He is not out of the woods yet. Relapse is a real fear that I live with everyday. He had a "crash" last month that looked like it was the beginnings of a relapse. The doctors have no idea what caused it. He has rebounded but he is being monitored very closely for any signs that the cancer is back. If it comes back, his prognosis is very bad. The real world has shaken my trust and faith. I'm older, wiser and more experienced. I'm not sure that I am up to taking on as much personal responsibility for the outcome of my upcoming birth.

 

Please, clarify what it is you think went wrong in your birth. What is it that should have been done? What action did the midwives take, or not take that lead to your son's brain damage. What is it that you have to teach us? What question is it that we all need to ask so we can run from midwives like yours?

 

I am just not understanding what you are trying to say when you say it was not the posterior position of your baby, but it was the not knowing your baby was posterior. Those two statements seem to conflict.

post #51 of 192

Interviewing midwives can give you some idea of their general approach and philosophy, but I disagree that it can in any way ensure qualifications or a safe record.  Let's acknowledge that in the face of a total lack of effective regulation and results tracking, a midwife can tell you whatever you want to hear -- about her training, her skill set and her track record.  Unless you are plugged into a circle that is actually willing to step up and pass along bad reviews, you are basically screwed. 

 

And the reality is -- how well is the average consumer able to really evaluate the skill set of the midwife?  Can an English major, without any background in math or statistics past high school and a couple of "rocks for jocks" type science classes at the college level really effectively evaluate the full body of obstetric scientific literature in order to determine whether what their midwife is telling them is appropriate? 

 

At one point, the Navelgazing Midwife suggested that midwifes should open some of their skills seminars up to the public, so women could see which midwifes really "knew their stuff".  However, as one of her commenters noted (and NGM later agreed), most of the public wouldn't know what level of comptency the midwives were displaying anymore than they would know whether the electrician they hired was properly wiring their home.

post #52 of 192

I find it interesting how many members with like 4 posts are coming here now and saying thank god they saw kmandrews post, and they will never consider homebirth now!! and how condescending all mdc members are...

kmandrews, you have a link to skepticalOB on your site, is that why you came to comment on this thread? it hadnt been active since sept.

and is a birthcenter experience really appropriate in a homebirth forum anyway??

 

.

post #53 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buzzbuzz View Post

Interviewing midwives can give you some idea of their general approach and philosophy, but I disagree that it can in any way ensure qualifications or a safe record.  Let's acknowledge that in the face of a total lack of effective regulation and results tracking, a midwife can tell you whatever you want to hear -- about her training, her skill set and her track record.  Unless you are plugged into a circle that is actually willing to step up and pass along bad reviews, you are basically screwed. 

 

And the reality is -- how well is the average consumer able to really evaluate the skill set of the midwife?  Can an English major, without any background in math or statistics past high school and a couple of "rocks for jocks" type science classes at the college level really effectively evaluate the full body of obstetric scientific literature in order to determine whether what their midwife is telling them is appropriate? 

 

At one point, the Navelgazing Midwife suggested that midwifes should open some of their skills seminars up to the public, so women could see which midwifes really "knew their stuff".  However, as one of her commenters noted (and NGM later agreed), most of the public wouldn't know what level of comptency the midwives were displaying anymore than they would know whether the electrician they hired was properly wiring their home.


She didn't realize her midwife hadn't been to any formal training. Come on....really?

 

I knew where my midwives went to school, for what *exactly*, when they graduated  and what kind of ongoing education they had engaged in. I found out what professional organizations(midwives council, etc) they were a part of and I asked about them in those circles. I called references that were offered....and I sought out references from people by searching here in the tribes forum and in other places, meet up groups and such, for people who had experience with the midwives I've worked with. I found glowing reviews, a few people who didn't "jive" with them but couldn't complain and stories of tricky situations that these women were able to handle with skill. I asked the MWs about any OBs they refer to in situations where a mother must be risked out last minute, etc.....and check out THOSE people. Does the person have proper newborn resuscitation training?? Because that can be checked on too. Public records check? Easy.

 

You can background check ANYBODY.....background checking someone professionally is even easier. You can't speak with every person they ever worked with....you can't find out about every mistake they ever made....but you can find out if they are respected by their peers, if they have angry mobs of women out there who feel the woman shouldn't be practicing because she's dangerous, rude, flaky....any number of things. You can find out if the person is connected professionally with other midwives, if she takes the time to engage in ongoing education, meetings about birth activism, etc....if you really make it your business to find out about someones professional career, you can.

 

.....and you can do all of this and still have everything go wrong. Or you can stumble upon the worst midwife in the history of birth....and have a perfect outcome. But you should try, at least, to find out everything you can about the person you are counting on to act swiftly, instinctively and in your best interest should things take a turn for the worst.

 

Midwives have to be held to high standards....not just the standards of the state, but OURS as well. We have to set standards and be willing to walk out of the office of a midwife who gives us ooky feelings.

 

I'd birth in a hospital with OBs I liked and trusted....before I'd be at home with a MW I wasn't sure about. I'd go UC, before I went with a midwife who didn't know her stuff. If all she knows how to do is call an ambulance....well hell, I can do that.

 

 

 

post #54 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by sbraz View Post

I find it interesting how many members with like 4 posts are coming here now and saying thank god they saw kmandrews post, and they will never consider homebirth now!! and how condescending all mdc members are...

kmandrews, you have a link to skepticalOB on your site, is that why you came to comment on this thread? it hadnt been active since sept.

and is a birthcenter experience really appropriate in a homebirth forum anyway??

 

.



I noticed that too.

 

I am also noticing that the OP does not seem to be able to give any details about what went wrong besides the fact that she chose a homebirth.

 

post #55 of 192
Brand new here too...

I did want to add that OB's are frigging NOTORIOUS for not acknowledging the impact the baby's position can have in labor. They don't concern themselves with position at all unless the baby is breech. And then when labor takes a long time they exclaim that your pelvis is too small and therefore you need a c-section.

My 4th baby was delivered in the hospital (by a midwife in a practice that also has an OB) I knew he was posterior, I kept telling them he was posterior. The typical things happened that are common with posterior babies- long labor, stuck at 7 cm, etc. Luckily he did turn during pushing and popped right out. And what did the CNM say? She said "ohhhh wow! He was posterior! He flipped right at the last second!" duh I already told you that! I'm sure I would have been sectioned hours before if I hadn't birthed 3 babies easily. So they couldn't pull the "your pelvis is too small" card. My next baby will be born at home!

All I'm saying is, no OB will even do a c-section based on posterior position. In fact, most of the time they don't even recognize the baby is posterior until way late in labor.
post #56 of 192

Interestingly enough, the mother of Tully Kavanagh (who died from severe brain trauma during birth and used Lisa Barrett as a homebirth "advocate") has claimed she didn't understand that her child could possibly die during homebirth despite (a) being told that homebirth was not advised and that one of her twins could die by both her GP and an OB she saw at the hospital prior to birth and (b) actually sitting in at a prior inquest into another homebirth death under the care of Lisa Barrett.

 

So, prior to a homebirth, there are a lot of things a mother may not necessarily realize until the crap hits the proverbial fan. 

 

 

 

 

 

post #57 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikkijames View Post

All I'm saying is, no OB will even do a c-section based on posterior position. In fact, most of the time they don't even recognize the baby is posterior until way late in labor.


Agreed. While you may get an emergency c-section for "failure to progress", I have never heard of anyone getting a c-section for a posterior baby.

post #58 of 192

KmAndrews isnt even the OP.  the original thread here was started (and for all intents and purposes) ended in Sept, and about the blog SkepticalOB.  KmAndrews was probably searching for `SkepticalOB` (as she has links to her on her site) and came here.  To leave helpful comments about how all our mws are only educated (ever!!) by reading Ina May at Barnes and Noble (wow, glad I uc´ed!).  

 

I used to lurk around mdc a lot, havent as much in the last year or so.  I know there have been changes here.  But how can there be intellectual discussion about pros/cons of homebirth when new posters come here and only write negatives, (or positives, but this is not the case here).  and then get mad and say mdc moms are condescending and deluded by not fully agreeing with them.  Posters who have 10 posts, all in the HB forum, and obviously anti-hb stance, give me a break. (lex99999??)

-and you can now say to me, well mdc is really messed up,  i cant say anything negative about hb? well no, but if ALL you have to say is anti-hb in the hb forum, with no ability to intellectually hash out the topic...... give me a break.

 

You know what the problem with the internet is? (or humanity i guess)... All the time I see comments on articles and in forums with people thinking their 1, or 6 experiences/opinions are more important than anything experienced by anyone else. ever. 

And you know what happens? other people get upset when their own experiences/opinions/desires are disregarded.  Also people get upset when someone wants to take away their options just based on someone else´s one personal experience in a different context.  Some things are not all about you.  Intellectual convo about pros and cons of hb, hospital birth, uc, ncb, whatever, doesnt take place when people say, oh well, i had x lb baby with x complications in x setting and x provider and it was terrible!! you should NEVER do x, in fact it should be illegal.

one personal experience, while valid to the person, should not dictate entire discussion about a macro topic.

 

 

People like Averysmomma are eventually going to get tired of wasting their breath here (maybe you can start cutting and pasting?).  ive seen a lot of suspicious threads recently in the little i come here.  pretty soon mdc will be like anyother mainstream parenting board... with cloth diapers maybe.

sure theres action and views when there are threads like this... arguments, people love reading it.  But eventually the people like averysmomma are going to get tired of wasting their breath and stop coming here. it seems to me a lot of the best of mdc (particularly the uc board) is already gone. 

post #59 of 192

".....and you can do all of this and still have everything go wrong. Or you can stumble upon the worst midwife in the history of birth....and have a perfect outcome. But you should try, at least, to find out everything you can about the person you are counting on to act swiftly, instinctively and in your best interest should things take a turn for the worst."

 

I think you also need to acknowledge the extremes of some of the rhetoric out there -- the "trust birth", "birth is normal", "breech is a variation of normal", "twins are a variation of normal", "I am obese, hypertensive and of advanced material age but high risk is just something doctors make up to scare you out of homebirth" type stuff.   I see a lot of normalizing of high risk scenarios in homebirth discussions -- after all its just the "cascade of interventions" that's the problem, right?  After all, doctors just like to "play the dead baby card".  And I see a lot of "if I just think happy thoughts everything will be okay" -- so I think there are people that have stepped away from the idea that you need a caregiver who really knows what she's doing because, after all, isn't that just a "medwife" and aren't you just demonstrating that you don't "trust birth" after all?

post #60 of 192

You know, I want to say.....I was up very late last night and up again very early this morning, researching the state of home birth and midwifery care in Oregon...and I am absolutely shocked at what I have found. The systems in place in the state of Oregon are allowing for some very, very uneducated, callous and unprofessional people to become midwives and wreak havoc on the births and recoveries of countless women. But that can happen anywhere. Bad apples will always exist. The problem in Oregon seems to be that midwives who have displayed shocking standards of care are being allowed to continue along their way with no repercussions.

 

Something really needs to be done about it. There are some fine, fine midwives practicing in that state.....but there are also some very scary cases of midwives not being held accountable and being left, after horrific situations (complete with court documents and testimony from the midwives themselves in some cases that absolutely back up the claims of the families involved that shockingly inept and unprofessional care was given) to continue to practice and do the SAME THING to other women and babies.

 

I'm shocked at some of the stories I have read, some of the court testimony I've viewed and cannot believe that this is happening there. Oregon mamas.....please tell us if you need help, petitions signed, blog links that we can post on blogs some of us may have...whatever. If you are involved in activism in Oregon to try and shed light on this situation, I am here for you in spirit and through the keyboard, whatever help I can lend is yours.

 

I honestly was crying and crying reading the stories and witness accounts of the types of things that have gone down. Just heart wrenching accounts of severely mistreated, cursed and yelled at and abandoned women. Midwives LEAVING mothers with retained placentas, grunting babies and severe blood loss. Midwives calmly calling in "routine transfers" in absolute EMERGENCY situations where lives were on the line. Just, things I can't even imagine. I'm so glad I live in the state I do, where there is such intense focus on these types of things and the midwifery community and NBC are so active and close knit and midwives are held to high standards.

 

 

 

 

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