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Getting a DOG, now adopt or buy? puppy or YA? schnauzer, cocker spaniel,.....?

post #1 of 37
Thread Starter 

We are a family of five (kids 2,4,6) we kept saying when our babe potty trained they could get a dog, Well she potty trained early (started at 18mos)! and we want a dog by Christmas. Trying not to rush we want to make this a forever fit. My hubby would like a young pup to start fresh etc know the health history meet the mom and dad (blah blah) I am trying to convince him we should adopt a young adult so it might be potty trained and it would be helping a homeless dog. So I would love your opinions (no in fighting b/c you dont like someones opionions PLEASE) Adopt or Buy? My hubby and I like Schnauzers and Cockers and I have heard health issues are less with Schnauzers and even less if you get a blend (schnoodle, cocapoo?) I am not opposed to a mutt but out LL does want less than 45-50lbs. We do have a child prone to exzema so a more hypoallergenic dog would be great.

 

For now we are starting by visiting local shelters to let all the kids love on some dogs and get familiar with the idea. I am not allowing us to look at puppies (breeders) for a couple weeks till the excitement of us saying yes wears off~

I do get the final say since I am SAHM HS and yes I have had a dog before and trained her well so I do know what I am getting into and am fully prepared for the responsibility~

 

 

Thanks for reading and taking time to give me your opinion or experiences....

post #2 of 37

If you adopt from a breed-specific or other independent dog rescue, you can maybe get a dog that has been fostered in a family situation. This can give you some very valuable information--important when you have 3 kids. The way a dog behaves in a shelter environment is not always predictive of how he or she will behave at home. We are happy owners of 2 adopted dogs. The first one we love very much but never got very serious about training. Big mistake. This new one we are trying to do a better job with. #2 is a great dog but if I had to do it over I might take my own advice & look for a fostered dog to get a better idea of what to expect behavior- and temperament-wise. Adopt!

post #3 of 37

We've done both - 10-week-old puppy, and young adult (16 months). Both were purchased from the same breeder, and the pup was about 80% housetrained when we got him - but he was still a pain in the neck until he was about a year old. We didn't even consider a puppy until our twins were 7, and old enough to take a backseat to the puppy's needs, as well as participate in the training.

 

We just lost that dog to cancer at age 10, and we knew right away that we wanted another Cardigan Welsh Corgi, and that we didn't want a puppy. We went back to the same breeder, and she had a 16-month old male looking for a forever home (she raised him to be a show dog, and he didn't like the ring). He's potty and leash trained; he's past the chewing stage and obnoxious teenager stage. We actually only got him 3 days ago, and it's taking him a little time to adjust to our household, but every day he's more comfortable and more content.

 

In your situation, with three young kids, I would definitely recommend a young adult.

 

Oh, and our breeder charges a LOT less for an adult dog than a pup - even a pet-quality pup.

post #4 of 37

We got one of our dogs from a shelter. Dd was about 6 years old and she is 11 now.

The shelter said he was a smooth fox terrier/schnauzer mix. He looks like a smooth fox terrier and weighs about 25-30 pounds.

He was about 4 months old and on his last days before being euthanized because of lack of space at the shelter. He had to be neutered before we could bring him home.

He was not potty trained or trained in any way so we had to do that.

He was very friendly and playful from the beginning- although he has calmed down a bit as he has gotten older. He loves people. He has always gotten along well with dd and kids her age but maybe not younger. When he was a puppy he chewed on stuff for awhile so we had to be careful about what was left within reach for awhile. Dd lost a couple of toys and he chewed up a photo album and a tv remote as well as eating a sock.

He hasn't had any significant health or behavior problems.  He gets along well with our chihuahua. He chases our cats back to the basement but does not fight with them. He did not get along with mil's rottweiler though. He doesn't like to be left alone for long periods. He is energetic.

He doesn't need much grooming. He does shed a bit. He made my mom itch for some reason- not bothered by any other dog- unless he had a recent bath. With just a bath she was fine around him. No one else has been bothered. 

 

I had always had older dogs and probably wouldn't get a puppy again. It was a lot of work with dd and the puppy.

post #5 of 37
I really prefer to start with a well socialized 8 week old puppy so that I can control his socialization from the beginning. I have some specific needs in a dog, and the best way to make sure those needs are met is to start early. I need my dog to be bomb-proof around kids of all ages and noise levels, I need the dog to not be afraid of fireworks or loud noises, and being around horses without going nuts is a huge plus (I mountain bike and come across horses a lot). So when my dog was a pup we would do tons of socialization around kids: school, festivals, friends with small babies, you name it. Lots of exposure, lots of positive experiences, and lots of treats. To make my puppy thunder/firework proof I took her hiking in the woods near the shooting range (in a very safe area). She got to do an activity she loved from a young age and got used to loud gunshots right away. This year at 4th of July she never even quivered despite 4 days of rockets going off in the neighborhood.

I did wait until my daughter was older (7) to get a puppy, though. I don't think I would have gotten a puppy until she was about six years old. It is a LOT of work, for sure, but the results are well worth it for me. My dog is now 15 months old (German Shepherd/Border Collie/Who Knows mix) and is just super. I'd say she was quite reliable by 7 months old. It sure felt like a long five months to get there, but I had a lot of fun, too.
post #6 of 37

I agree with tinuviel_k, I too would want a well socialized puppy, although I would be happy to get it older, up to 12 weeks. Our reasons are somewhat different, I would want a puppy that hasn't been vaccinated or given chemical wormers and flea/tick meds, raw-fed and from naturally reared breeder even better. The first few months are challenging, but you get through it. My youngest was 10 when we got our dog, so I could really concentrate on the puppy, especially during the day when the kids were at school. He was reliably house trained by four months, we only had a handful of accidents even as a young puppy. He is now 14 months old (purebred English Mastiff), still intact and becoming quite the young man. He is a joy and very much part of our family.

 

Oscarcollar1.jpg

post #7 of 37
Thread Starter 

Thanks for sharing~ We went to the shelter today and met a few pups and seniors and played with them. I wish I could home them all it is truly so sad but on the other hand I think it might be a big risk to adopt an older dog with 3 youngsters. Even the woman at the shelter said it is very hard to predict temperment till they are home and that she would call if they got puppies. I think we will keep going on exploring and not rush too much. We do know a woman who has cocker pups in about 4-5 wks (they are young now) and she does vax but gives them raw goat milk on food once they have weaned (I def like that) she invited us to come tour and they are vet checked socialized etc (I asked all the basic ?s trying to make sure there was no puppy mill) Even so my husband and I will have a date night to go see them on our own in a couple weeks. He really wants to get the family a little pup b/c he says pups who grow up around toddlers from early on are just more kid friendly and tolerant. I could see some of that in the shelter today they were all scared and we even did one child at a time and all of my kids know the routine 'let them smell you slowly, get at there level'.  I know I could handle a pup it would just be a lot of work. I also know that its possible to find a great older dog with some patience and searching  so we will see.....

I do have a ? MIRZAM I have heard/read that male dogs become agressive a lot of the time when unaltered have you found this to be true? Esp. a risk at the dog park if they are around an unaltered female.....

post #8 of 37

 

 

Quote:
I do have a ? MIRZAM I have heard/read that male dogs become agressive a lot of the time when unaltered have you found this to be true? Esp. a risk at the dog park if they are around an unaltered female.....

 

Oscar is not aggressive at all towards other dogs, I will post a link to the summary of a research paper that says just the opposite, that intact dogs (male and female) are less aggressive and anxious than neutered/spayed dogs. I don't know where this aggressive male stuff comes from unless it is two intact males fighting over a bitch in heat? What is more normally the case is neutered males getting aggressive towards unneutered dogs at the dog park. In relation to de-sexing, the dogs, both male and female, that seem to have the most behavioral problems (aggression, fear, anxiety) are those that underwent pediatric spay or neuter, which also can lead to growth problems and and incontinence in bitches. This is one of reasons why I would not get a puppy from a shelter, they routinely spay/neuter puppies as young as 8 weeks of age. Note to those reading this, please let's not get into a discussion on the spaying and neutering of dogs in general, and the millions of unwanted dogs that end up getting PTS etc, etc. I am a responsible owner, my dog is never allowed to roam free to impregnate females in heat siring liters of puppies. He is intact because I believe it is the best thing for him. I do not believe that spay/neutering is a bad thing for all dogs, just bad for babies.

 

Behavioral and Physical Effects of Spaying and Neutering Domestic Dogs (Canis familiaris)

 

 

 

Quote:

[we] found significant correlations between neutering dogs and increases in aggression, fear and anxiety, and 

excitability, regardless of the age at which the dog was neutered. There were also significant 

correlations between neutering and decreases in trainability and responsiveness to cues. The other 

three behavioral categories examined (miscellaneous behavior problems, attachment and attention- 

seeking behavior, and separation-related behavior) showed some association with neutering, but 

these differed more substantially depending on the age at which the dog was neutered. The overall 

trend seen in all these behavioral data was that the earlier the dog was neutered, the more negative 

the effect on the behavior. A difference in bone length was found between neutered and intact dogs, 

suggesting that neutering has an effect on bone growth, which may be related to other orthopedic 

effects documented in the literature. Examination of changes in bone length of gonadectomized dogs 

is continuing. 

 

post #9 of 37
Thread Starter 

Very interesting....Mizram I will definately want to look more into what age would be best. I have 'heard' 6 mos but need to do my own research to see if thats accurate. I do think we might look at recues (where they are in foster homes and are sometimes more predictable histories) I think adopting a shelter dog would be great if my husband and I did not have such small children. Wow spaying and ntrg at 8 weeks is not good at all. Wouldnt that affect bone density etc none of the shelters would tell me the age reqmt. maybe thats why? 

My husband is looking at some pups today and some others tomorrow. We are interviewing and getting a feel for these breeders. We have never went the breeder route so we want to be very sure they are doing things right. (no puppy mill and plenty of love and socialization) I have found numerous sites with lists of ?s to ask the breeder and am printing one for my hubby to take so we can be those annoying people that ask too many ?s which is ok by me! We are not totally gender specific we think both m and f can be amazing dogs with the right training and treatment from the owner. I do not vax my kids but most everyone I have spoke with does the first round of puppy shots. Which we need to get to and fro the bdr so we will have to do those vax reqd).This woman he is mtg today does not do flea treatments since they are inside with no fleas. ( which i like we prefer nat flea control methods and if you dont mind esstl oil smells they work great)

I appreciate all of ya'lls opnions and experiences. I will keep you posted on how it goes~ if you have any tips for checking out breeders I would love those too!!

post #10 of 37

You could adopt a retired breeder then you know the dog's temperment and was well raised and trained and yet out of the puppy stage (12 months not 6!). Every shelter dog my grandma has adopted has bit her or ended up being the wrong breed for her and scratched her up terribly from being hyper and high energy. Do research the breed and find one kid harty. And always visit the home of the pet

post #11 of 37

early spay and neuter is actually MUCH easier on the animal then at 6 months. They are healed within a day where as the older teenagers can take a week and the pain seems worse.

post #12 of 37


that study is not completely accurate, in fact most reported bite incidents are with unaltered male dogs. There needs to be more studies done before anything conclusively can be drawn from it. And there are actually other studies done that show just the opposite It will stunt their maturity slightly and will stunt their growth as the growth plates wont close but that normally just produces leggier dogs.

 

I would absolutely NOT buy a dog if the person is not a responsible breeder, if a breeder is advertising in a local paper they are most likely a bad breeder. Look around at breed clubs and members of those, ensure you research the breed and know the health risks and what health testing needs to be done on the parents and if any need to be done on the pups, an "all clear" from a vet is not health testing. Read this: http://www.breeders.net/ethics.php if they dont follow it they are not good breeders. The dogs need to be health tested and titled to show they are worthy of breeding otherwise, the breeders contribute to the overpopulation, badly bred, unhealthy dogs :(

 

Going through a rescue who fosters dogs and getting an adult is the only way of being 100% sure of a dogs temperment, they grow, they change and they are influenced by their environment but that doesnt mean they are going to love children or be good with other pets etc.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirzam View Post

 

 

 

Oscar is not aggressive at all towards other dogs, I will post a link to the summary of a research paper that says just the opposite, that intact dogs (male and female) are less aggressive and anxious than neutered/spayed dogs. I don't know where this aggressive male stuff comes from unless it is two intact males fighting over a bitch in heat? What is more normally the case is neutered males getting aggressive towards unneutered dogs at the dog park. In relation to de-sexing, the dogs, both male and female, that seem to have the most behavioral problems (aggression, fear, anxiety) are those that underwent pediatric spay or neuter, which also can lead to growth problems and and incontinence in bitches. This is one of reasons why I would not get a puppy from a shelter, they routinely spay/neuter puppies as young as 8 weeks of age. Note to those reading this, please let's not get into a discussion on the spaying and neutering of dogs in general, and the millions of unwanted dogs that end up getting PTS etc, etc. I am a responsible owner, my dog is never allowed to roam free to impregnate females in heat siring liters of puppies. He is intact because I believe it is the best thing for him. I do not believe that spay/neutering is a bad thing for all dogs, just bad for babies.

 

Behavioral and Physical Effects of Spaying and Neutering Domestic Dogs (Canis familiaris)

 

 

 

 



 

post #13 of 37
Thread Starter 

Hmm...well I sure have a lot to think about. I called a breeder yesterday but they do not have any older dogs at this time. They also said (since they are into show dogs) that show dogs are not always great with toddlers as they are more pampered and around adults more. So I will call a few more places next week. I am staying within a certain area so I can visit and make sure the breeder is doing things right. My husband had a wonderful visit with the Cocker breeder. She has the puppies in a crib in her living room and when they are bigger they are in a toddler gate area. She does not register them as they are her pets and she breeds the puppies for families and not showing. My husband said her dogs were in excellent health and they were so spoiled, they had a costco outside house for their older dogs. (they only let the mom and pups stay inside but when the pups are adopted they move there dogs back in, to give the mom and pups space) I need to ask my husband if he went in the costco house. He was there an hour and asked ?s etc. but this was his fist visit to a breeder and so I said we need to visit another one or two before we make a decision. She did invite the children and I to come for a visit on sunday but the pups are only 4 weeks so I am wondering if I should wait till they are a little older. It would be hard at this age to see their personalities. I think I will be bound into a contract saying that I will spay or neuter I am not sure the timeline.....   

I also  wanted to know from anyone how you do vax and do you do them all or select ones? Rabies is legally reqd esp for a dog coming from CA to US they want rabies done by 3 mos. otherwise there are no other reqmts. My oldest child had a vac reaction and she only recieved one. We have not vaxed our other children b/c of this and b/c we have done tons of research (I do not mean mag articles I mean real hard scientific studies etc) we have food allergies in our fam which makes our children more likely to vax reaction. We do homeopathic remedies for tetanus (when needed) and stay on top of our health. So with animals I know some things are prevalent and I know someone told me distemper and parvo are worth doing so I am looking into those, I was wondering if there is a best age or what you all think about this subj.???

 

Thanks so much

post #14 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by babygirlie View Post

You could adopt a retired breeder then you know the dog's temperment and was well raised and trained and yet out of the puppy stage



We did this, I adopted a retired stud that was 6 years old. He was awesome and immediately bonded to me especially. I think getting an older dog is a great idea especially when you have 3 young children. Puppies are a lot of work

post #15 of 37


not registering and not showing means the breeder probably doesnt health test. This is a big red flag to me. Breeders should be breeding dogs to better the breed, unfortunately most people breed for money and this is what the overpopulation problem is about, does the woman have a contract for her dogs? does she take them back in the event that the owner cant keep them? Does she do home checks? Keeping the older dogs outside, do they exercise them and mentally stimulate them? Does she health test? She needs to do this or is probably continuing on genetic faults within the breed, here is a good site for you http://www.cockerspaniel-info.org.uk/health.htm

 

Puppies need vaccinations! they should have their first set before they go home, then 2-3 more sets between then and 16 weeks (usually 10, 12 and 16 weeks), they will also need a booster at a year old and after that you can do every 3 years. Puppies immune systems are still growing and they need the protection esp from parvo and distemper. It is pretty rare to see a reaction in dogs to vaccinations.

 

here is some red flags for breeders http://www.bmdcnv.org/puppy/BadBreederRedFlags.pdf

 

you may or may not care, but millions of dogs are put down every year due to lack of homes, according to HSUS thats 1 in every 8 seconds. It is really important to stop this cycle by going to good reputable breeders.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by vegan2raw View Post

Hmm...well I sure have a lot to think about. I called a breeder yesterday but they do not have any older dogs at this time. They also said (since they are into show dogs) that show dogs are not always great with toddlers as they are more pampered and around adults more. So I will call a few more places next week. I am staying within a certain area so I can visit and make sure the breeder is doing things right. My husband had a wonderful visit with the Cocker breeder. She has the puppies in a crib in her living room and when they are bigger they are in a toddler gate area. She does not register them as they are her pets and she breeds the puppies for families and not showing. My husband said her dogs were in excellent health and they were so spoiled, they had a costco outside house for their older dogs. (they only let the mom and pups stay inside but when the pups are adopted they move there dogs back in, to give the mom and pups space) I need to ask my husband if he went in the costco house. He was there an hour and asked ?s etc. but this was his fist visit to a breeder and so I said we need to visit another one or two before we make a decision. She did invite the children and I to come for a visit on sunday but the pups are only 4 weeks so I am wondering if I should wait till they are a little older. It would be hard at this age to see their personalities. I think I will be bound into a contract saying that I will spay or neuter I am not sure the timeline.....   

I also  wanted to know from anyone how you do vax and do you do them all or select ones? Rabies is legally reqd esp for a dog coming from CA to US they want rabies done by 3 mos. otherwise there are no other reqmts. My oldest child had a vac reaction and she only recieved one. We have not vaxed our other children b/c of this and b/c we have done tons of research (I do not mean mag articles I mean real hard scientific studies etc) we have food allergies in our fam which makes our children more likely to vax reaction. We do homeopathic remedies for tetanus (when needed) and stay on top of our health. So with animals I know some things are prevalent and I know someone told me distemper and parvo are worth doing so I am looking into those, I was wondering if there is a best age or what you all think about this subj.???

 

Thanks so much



 

post #16 of 37
Thread Starter 

Oh STARR I do care that is why I am asking for advice. I know she takes them back if you have an issue, and that you get a document from the vet listing what shots were given and the health of the dog. I know she tests the parents (which are her pets) and they are free of the most common cocker issues. I do not have all her answers as my husband visited her last night and worked the night thru the am and is just now on his way home (poor guy). So he was going to give me all of it when he gets home. We are also looking at Beagles now a friend said they were great with kids. The reviews are great online of the breed and there would be less coat maintenence. Does anyone have any experience with Beagles? I did also find a breeder of beagles who seems to be a good one and we might visit them next week. I am going to visit the cocker breeder also. I am trying to look at a few breeds and breeders so we can really get a feel for just this whole process. I am not going to rush into it blindly for I do realize that the money we spend would be much better spent helping a shelter dog. I am still looking daily at shelters but I do want to make sure we get a healthy young puppy and so far there is none that are even kid friendly, its all chiuaha and great big hunting dogs.

 

So any beagle lovers out there....?

post #17 of 37

sorry if i came across as think you dont care! I do know a lot of people who dont, which makes me sad!

 

Make sure the health tests are done, dont take a vet certificate as proof, usually the tests have a number and are done by specialists, I know OFA you can check on their website for the results for specific dogs.

 

Beagles are great dogs! Like any breed they have their quirks but they do make great family pets! As with any dog, the more exericse, training and mental stimulation they get the better then are. They like to sniff alot lol, i dont have much experience with them but a friend has one who is great with his son.

 

Petfinder.com is my fave place to look for shelter dogs. I am a rescue advocate but I still appreciate a well bred dog :)

 

What characteristics are you looking for in a dog? I do have a few contacts in various cities of washington (mostly seattle) I can ask around about dogs for you too.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by vegan2raw View Post

Oh STARR I do care that is why I am asking for advice. I know she takes them back if you have an issue, and that you get a document from the vet listing what shots were given and the health of the dog. I know she tests the parents (which are her pets) and they are free of the most common cocker issues. I do not have all her answers as my husband visited her last night and worked the night thru the am and is just now on his way home (poor guy). So he was going to give me all of it when he gets home. We are also looking at Beagles now a friend said they were great with kids. The reviews are great online of the breed and there would be less coat maintenence. Does anyone have any experience with Beagles? I did also find a breeder of beagles who seems to be a good one and we might visit them next week. I am going to visit the cocker breeder also. I am trying to look at a few breeds and breeders so we can really get a feel for just this whole process. I am not going to rush into it blindly for I do realize that the money we spend would be much better spent helping a shelter dog. I am still looking daily at shelters but I do want to make sure we get a healthy young puppy and so far there is none that are even kid friendly, its all chiuaha and great big hunting dogs.

 

So any beagle lovers out there....?



 

post #18 of 37
Thread Starter 

No worries I was not offended~ I would love any contact info youu might have, my husband is pretty stuck on cockers and so a mix would be ok but we also want the dog to be 25-40lbs. We like to trek around and do not want something too tiny. I actually found quite a few sites not reccomending beagles for toddlers.

 

Gotta run...

 

ps we are about and hour and 1/2 n of seattle so that would be great!

post #19 of 37

I usually recommend one of two routes, either adopt an adult dog or find a reputable breeder and get a puppy.  I do a ton of rescue and foster work and my experience has been that so much of a dog's personality is pre-determined that you really want to know what the parents were like OR you want to adopt a dog that is an adult already and therefore more steady in it's temperament (can take until 2-3 for most dogs to show their fully developed personality/temperament).

 

If you want a puppy and are going to go through a breeder the MOST important thing you can do is to contact the breed club of that dog (usually easy to find by googling the breed name or can always be found on the akc.org website) to start with.  They can usually put you in touch with your local chapter of the breed club or a local reputable breeder or owner.

 

Here is a little rundown of a good breeder...

 

They never breed a dog under 2yrs old

They show the dogs at a real dog show (akc or ukc) and the dogs are champions or well on the way (harder to get in some breeds than others, beagles are one of those breeds).  Pretty much all the dogs in the pedigree should be at least champions as well.

They have very few litters each year, generally not more than one or two, with occasional exceptions

They do all testing recommended by breed club, usually this is at minimum checking hips or patella, having the eyes CERF certified each year, in cockers they would definitely require heart testing

They should be interviewing you as a potential owner as much as you are checking out them.  I have yet to deal with a reputable breeder who did not have me fill out an extensive questionaire and insist on a phone interview at minimum, in one case I had to drive 5 hours to meet with the breeder to get on a waiting list prior to the bitch even being bred (and the bitch didn't even take on that breeding, *sigh*)

They should have a contract that you will be required to sign that includes having the dog spayed/castrated.  They should also only be willing to sell you the dog with limited registration, which means you would not be able to breed it and register the puppies.  Generally a breeder is only going to sell a show quality dog with full registration to someone who is interested in actually showing and not just as a family pet

The puppies should all be well socialized and raised in the home

The bitch should be available to meet, but not necessarily the male since making a good match between bloodlines often means going outside the dogs they own.

It should be in the contract that the puppy is never allowed to be given away or taken to a shelter/rescue and that if you cannot keep the puppy at any point in it's life that it must be returned to the breeder.

 

Okay, there's definitely more but that should get you on the right track of finding a reputable breeder. 

 

As to which breed, I honestly am not a fan of cockers or beagles for families with children.  I'd really recommend either finding an adult rescue, preferably one that is being fostered with a family or going to http://animal.discovery.com/breedselector/dogselector.do and looking through the suggestions.  You might very well come up with another breed altogether that way, just make sure to look closely into whatever breed(s) catch your eye.  Generally speaking most breed clubs website's will have an article detailing the downsides of the breed because the goal of the clubs is happy owner and happy dog, so they only want puppies going to people who know what they are getting into.  Two of my dogs are rare/odd breeds but are absolutely exactly what I was looking for.  In both cases I would never have stumbled across them by asking around (most people have never heard of them, lol) and it was seeing them listed on breed quiz sites over and over that got me to look more closely at them.

 

Whatever you choose to do I wish you the best of luck!  It's a huge decision and I think by putting so much thought into it you are absolutely going to make the right choice.

post #20 of 37


i asked and will see what I can find. Are you open to other breeds of dogs?

 

I found you this

http://www.acsrwa.org/

http://www.spanielsearch.com/Washington.htm

 

http://www.beagleclubofewa.org/Adoption.html


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by vegan2raw View Post

No worries I was not offended~ I would love any contact info youu might have, my husband is pretty stuck on cockers and so a mix would be ok but we also want the dog to be 25-40lbs. We like to trek around and do not want something too tiny. I actually found quite a few sites not reccomending beagles for toddlers.

 

Gotta run...

 

ps we are about and hour and 1/2 n of seattle so that would be great!



 

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