Are your gifted kids in public school?

[pranava]

I was looking up my school districts "report card" today and it's not pretty. 

Those of you who have gifted kids succeeding in public school, how does your school measure up?  I'm trying to figure out if the gifted kids who do just fine in public school are going to schools where 80% to 90% of kids are passing standardized tests, or schools where only 60% are passing.

I'm getting a little nervous about sending DS(2.5) to a school where he has already mastered 75% of the end of year Kindergarten skills and only 65% of students in that school are passing standardized tests.

[whatsnextmom]

You have to take those "report cards" with a grain of salt. There are a lot of factors to consider. For starters, how high are your state standards? It's not universal. Some states softened their tests to allow their students to score higher. This makes comparing schools programs from state to state difficult.

You really need to look at your school scores by demographic. My kids schools totals tend to hover around 60 percent meeting state standards overall (which is "proficient" or "advanced and in a high standards state.) The majority remaining are at the "basic" level with 1 or 2 percent scoring "below or very below basic." However, in my own kids economic demographic, it's more like 85 percent passing. In the gifted demographic, you're looking at 98 percent passing (and I wonder if those 2 percent not passing just blew it off.) 

My kids elementary and middle schools housed very large "English as a Second Language" population. These kids are bright and capable but it can take them years to score well on those state tests. Another demographic, quantity of learning disabled kids and the services they are getting. Our local schools ended up soaking up large quantities of LD kids who were just not getting services in their own districts. Again, great kids getting the help they need but lower test scores. 

How important a school sees those test scores is a factor to consider too. There are schools that have sky-rocketing scores but teach strictly to the test. Personally, I'd rather a school care less and teach what they feel a child really needs to know. We have a district in our county that made a second year of kindergarten the standard for any child who wasn't 6 when they started K. Yes, their test scores are higher because they testing older children on lower grade material! Doubt your want your own child at 6 plugging through the kindergarten curriculum.

So, to answer your question, both my middle and high schooler are in schools were the total population rates about 60-ish percent of kids making proficient/advanced but they've done well working with my gifted children. Elementary and middle school in particular have been highly flexible and open to forms of accomodation that other higher ranking districts scoffed at.

Edited by whatsnextmom - 9/15/11 at 12:59pm

[VisionaryMom]

My son is in public school. Despite my concerns about his teacher, the district overall is great for gifted students. We're living in an area with a reputation for really good private schools. I think 70% proficient is about the lowest that I've seen anywhere in our district (which is the 32nd largest school district in the nation). Our school is around 75%. About half of the students come into my son's school with no or rudimentary English skills.

[moominmamma]

I live in Canada, where there is much less difference between rich and poor, and therefore, I think, much less difference between good schools and bad schools. It's very unusual for families to move on the basis of finding a "desireable school district" and the reputation of the local schools would be a minor consideration for a family in the real estate market. We're also not big on standardized testing so there are few ways to measure and compare schools: scores on the required high school course provincial exams are one of the few indices.

Looking at that limited information, we don't live in a school district with a particularly strong reputation for academics. The larger high school in our district, which has a stronger academic bent than ours, gets a 5.1 out of 10 rating, which is below average for our province. I suspect that our school scores somewhat lower, though it is too small to get officially rated.

And yet ... my kids seem to be thriving there. While our school does not likely smell like a rose when it comes to average academic achievement, it is pretty darn unique in its open-mindedness, innovation and willingness to treat students as individuals. And that has served my kids very well indeed. They've been able to take courses at whatever level of challenge they'd like, regardless of their age and/or lack of pre-requisites, and have been granted credits for plenty of out-of-school and 'independent study' learning that they've done.

Miranda

[LynnS6]

My kids go to a school where 64% speak a language other than English at home and need ESL services; 78% get free & reduced lunch. Our school doesn't look great on paper because as a previous poster noted, it takes years (best research available suggests 4-7 years) for the ESL kids to catch up. Our school also houses the district-wide special ed for kids with language issues, so they rarely perform all that well either. About 2/3 of the parents in my middle class, mostly white neighborhood opt to go to different schools (private or transfer to another school).

So far, the school has done an excellent job of meeting my kids' needs. Ds (5th grade) who is moderately gifted, is particularly well served. The jury is still out for dd (grade 2) who is more high achieving than ds (not sure more gifted, just more persistent and excels in reading at a young age). She got great services last year (pull out for reading and math), but the funding was reduced a bit and they don't have a pull-out teacher for those anymore, and I don't know how they're going to do differentiation for her. Right now, dd gets a lot of her intellectual needs met at home. But if she gets too bored at school, we'll have to do something. I'm really hoping they can meet her needs, because the alternative is to pull her out and enroll her in a different public school and I REALLY want to keep my kids at the neighborhood school. They're learning so much about people from being in classes where they are the ethnic minority (20 out of 25 children in dd's 2nd grade class need ESL services). We also have NO issues with materialism or 'stuff' that they need to have to fit in. When 80% of your school's population lives in or very near poverty, 'stuff' isn't important. I know families with kids in higher rated schools and 'stuff' and bullying is a much bigger problem.

[kathymuggle]

I think there are differences between schools that produce high achievers (and thus have high rankings) and those that handle gifted students well.

I am not sure what produces a high ranking school, but what I want in a school that handles gifted kids well is flexibility.

I give my local school a B.  

Last year my DD's learning resource specialist was amazing.  She had good ideas, wrote them into the IEP, adjusted the IEP as needed, and arranged for my daughter to spend 4 days at a university with other bright and gifted children - at about 1/2 cost!!

On the negative side, not all her teachers were on board.  Most of them ignored the IEP.  My daughter did successfully force their hand on one issue (by literally getting a copy of her IEP and showing it to a teacher ) but that did not really change the fact they tended to systemically ignore or overlook the IEP.

FWIW, the schools mentionned above is a low-mid ranking school.  

Edited by kathymuggle - 9/16/11 at 7:12am

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by kathymuggle 

I think there are differences between schools that produce high achievers (and thus have high rankings) and those that handle gifted students well.

I am not sure what produces a high ranking school, but what i want in a school that handles gifted kids well is flexibility.

 

I really agree with this. My kids go to a small, private, progressive school with a low student teacher ratio and lots of opportunities to DO things. It's popular both for kids who have mild special needs and for kids who are way ahead of the curve.

It's also popular with hippies.  

But the school treats each child like an individual and their work is planned around their interests and abilities, so the fact that there are several kids with LDs that effect reading doesn't have a negative impact on my child who is doing math far ahead of the standard track at school.

We don't take the same state test so I don't know how our average compares with public school, but I don't see how the average of the school would be relevant at all. It has nothing to do with what MY child is going to do or learn today.

In our city, the schools with the best rankings have an upper middle class pull area where the kids get lots of outside enrichment and even tutoring. I don't see how that means that the school is doing a better job, just that they get easier kids.

[ollyoxenfree]

Try to look behind the numbers to figure out what story they tell. I know one school with a large number of ESL students from recent immigrant families. The test numbers do not look good, but the families themselves put a lot of emphasis on education. The school had a lot of programs running to involve the community. It's a good learning environment and I think they are pretty supportive of individual needs, wherever the individual falls on the spectrum. I know another school with impressive test results, but the general attitude is that all of their students are high achievers and their program is already rigorous, so no student gets special accommodations. 

Test numbers were only one factor when I considered a school for my dc, and a pretty superficial one. If the test results were excellent, it didn't tell me much more than that the school did a good job preparing the students for the test. If they were mediocre, it raised some questions that I would keep in mind when I visited the schools and talked to the administration, other parents and students, but I've never rejected a school based on test numbers. 

Some places I've lived have put a huge emphasis on test numbers and school rankings. There have been scandals about how schools manipulate the numbers to improve their scores. Mediocre students suddenly find themselves with "special needs" identifications and are excused from testing or get special test accommodations (which is absolutely acceptable when appropriate, but suspicious when it's 25 or 35% of the student population). Test questions are leaked to students in special tutorial sessions. And so on. I've become fairly cynical about the whole standardized testing phenomenon. 

I don't think test numbers will tell you if a school is gifted friendly or not. 

[pranava]

Good thoughts all, and this gives me some other things to investigate about the school.  I know test scores aren't everything, but this school is a "teach to the test" school which I already don't like.  I just wonder how much importance will be placed on accomadation for a kid who needs little instruction to pass the test when 40% are not passing.

[kathymuggle]

Originally Posted by pranava 

Good thoughts all, and this gives me some other things to investigate about the school.  I know test scores aren't everything, but this school is a "teach to the test" school which I already don't like.  I just wonder how much importance will be placed on accomadation for a kid who needs little instruction to pass the test when 40% are not passing.

Honestly - I would run from such a school.

any other options?

[pranava]

There are good private schools, and a lottery for one decent public project school.  I'm feeling like I have to make a choice between private school and having another child due to cost concerns.  I know that is certainly not the only option, but it is a consideration. 

[ollyoxenfree]

Originally Posted by pranava 

  I just wonder how much importance will be placed on accomadation for a kid who needs little instruction to pass the test when 40% are not passing.

You just won't know until you visit the school, speak with the administration and some teachers and talk to some other parents. Find out what kind of enrichment programs they have. When you say they teach to the test, does that mean all of their resources are focused in-class and on extra tutoring, with no enrichment co-curriculars? Does the school welcome parent volunteers to run or help with programs? 

Exploring your other options is always a good idea too. If there is a local advocacy group for gifted and bright students, they may offer some insight and resources to help you. 

[Linda on the move]

What about moving to a better school zone?

[Geofizz]

Originally Posted by pranava 

Good thoughts all, and this gives me some other things to investigate about the school.  I know test scores aren't everything, but this school is a "teach to the test" school which I already don't like.  I just wonder how much importance will be placed on accomadation for a kid who needs little instruction to pass the test when 40% are not passing.

How do you know that?

I'm finding that neighborhood lore about our local schools have not been born out in our experience.  Had I gone on what I heard from neighbors - parents to all very high achieving kids - we would have had smooth sailing throughout our school experience.

Our school is a A+ Blue Ribbon, Value Added, Blah Blah school.  Our experience is that the building principal can be a primary determinant in setting the tone of the school and how the teachers respond to the exceptional needs of my kids.  We had one principal at the start of our school experience.  She retired at the end of DD's second grade year.  Ohhh, folks in the community loved her and her Blue Ribbon School.  I wanted to give her cookie cutters as a retirement gift (as in, that's how she likes her kids - identical). Since then, we've got a different principal and subsequently different vice principal, and the whole tone of the school has changed.  Kids are individuals and their educational needs are comparatively unique.  Test scores haven't gone down, and there is an increased tone of optimism amongst the kids in the (highly selective) gifted program and those kids on the cusp still desperately needing differentiation.  

[meemee]

Originally Posted by ollyoxenfree 

You just won't know until you visit the school, speak with the administration and some teachers and talk to some other parents. Find out what kind of enrichment programs they have. When you say they teach to the test, does that mean all of their resources are focused in-class and on extra tutoring, with no enrichment co-curriculars? Does the school welcome parent volunteers to run or help with programs? 

dd goes to a teach to the test school. but that is only during the time when testing comes up. two weeks before testing they pretty much put away everything and teach to the test. 

it is a school where the principal opens her speech on open nights with 'i am sure you want to know what our scores are.' the parents are v. focused in this school which requires an entrance exam. it is not the best fit of school for dd. it is a highly academic public school and even though dd is in GATE and its more challenging but its still not the same. she is a hands on learner for whom only a v. progressive school would work - none of which private or otherwise exists in our neighborhood. there is a decent charter school about 45 mins drive away but it still follows the same curriculum so wont be that much different. 

what makes dd's present school are her teachers. she has had memorable teachers every single grade. and its her wish to hang out with the teachers make school tolerable for her. her friends too. this is the child i purposely go 10 - 15 mins later to pick her up because she is in another teachers classroom hanging out with them. 

she already loves her future 5th grade teacher (i am SOOOOOOOOO grateful her school has soooo many male teachers as i notice she does much better with them) who is a man. to date her fav. teacher has been her 2nd grade teacher a man. when in third grade she found out her teacher had to go on medical leave she came home crying and cried herself to sleep at an early bedtime. 

at K (different school) her teacher had a huge variation of kids and with budget cuts the teacher could not look out for the enrichment needing kids. so what she did was she put out more challenging things during choice time which was everyday. while dd didnt much enjoy the class, she went everyday coz her teacher had set out extra duties for dd and dd felt she important and that she had to help the teacher so her class would run well.

and the way i chose the school was by talking to parents. because when i went to visit the school i wasnt really impressed with the teachers coz they are the kind who dont have good people skills adn thus arent good with parents or look really stern and strict but they usually had a great sense of humor and were very kind. 

so i feel for dd the teacher is what helps her tolerate school and not be pulled down by it. 

[flightgoddess]

the reason the school 'teaches to the test' is all those scores you talk about and those rankings everyone wants to analyze.

[moominmamma]

Originally Posted by flightgoddess 

the reason the school 'teaches to the test' is all those scores you talk about and those rankings everyone wants to analyze.

I'm a Canuck, so I may not have a clue, but doesn't school funding sometimes depend on scores in the US?

Miranda

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by moominmamma 

I'm a Canuck, so I may not have a clue, but doesn't school funding sometimes depend on scores in the US?

Miranda

yes.

Although individual states vary, the idea is that the tests are based on the state standards, so ideally teaching the state standards for each grade is the same as teaching to the test.

The scores effect the amount of money the schools get, how the schools are perceived by parents and children (what child would want to be part of a FAILING school?) and property values.  Public schools must take these tests extremely seriously and do everything they can to ensure the children to well on them.

[Daffodil]

Originally Posted by moominmamma 

I'm a Canuck, so I may not have a clue, but doesn't school funding sometimes depend on scores in the US?

Miranda

I suppose it depends on the state, since different states have different school funding systems, but I don't think in general schools with higher scores are getting additional funding.  They definitely aren't in my state.  Schools with low scores may get additional funding, though.  Last year, some of the schools in my area were eligible for federal School Improvement Grant funds because of their poor test results.
 

[RiverTam]

Originally Posted by Daffodil 

I suppose it depends on the state, since different states have different school funding systems, but I don't think in general schools with higher scores are getting additional funding.  They definitely aren't in my state.  Schools with low scores may get additional funding, though.  Last year, some of the schools in my area were eligible for federal School Improvement Grant funds because of their poor test results.
 

If a school fails to make Adequate Yearly Progress for two many years in a row, the kids are allowed to switch to another school in their district that is making AYP or in a neighboring school district that will take them.  One of the schools in my home town is in a low SES area and has been failing to make AYP for three years. Many kids in that neighborhood go to other schools in the district. A good chunk of money goes with them to their new schools.