Opinions on canine vaccines please - Page 2

[Mulvah]

Edited by Mulvah - 10/16/11 at 5:59pm

[starrlamia]

from what i have read they are not 100% sure on where it originated, that is one theory but has not been substantiated (in fact i have seen studies stating it was not a feline mutation). They also have not concluded 100% whether it was "man made" that is a theory. In any case whether it was man made or not it kills thousands of dogs every year, and is a very serious condition that can cost thousands of dollars to treat.
 

Originally Posted by Mirzam 

Actually, canine parvovirus is very similar to the long known feline panleukopenia virus (FPV). Soon after its appearance, parvo was classified as a mutation of FPV – in fact, the first vaccines used against parvo were FPV vaccines. Prior to the parvovirus outbreak, the only widely-used vaccine for dogs was distemper. At some point, cats’ kidneys were used to develop the distemper vaccine and this was shipped around the world and injected into dogs. Another possibility is that cats that were vaccinated for FPV shed that vaccine through their feces – a very real risk with modified live vaccines. The feline parvovirus could have easily mutated into canine parvovirus. Regardless of how canine parvovirus originated, it is well accepted that it is a man-made disease and it is the result of vaccination, either for canine distemper or FPV. This much is obvious because the outbreaks were sudden and massive and they first surfaced in countries that regularly vaccinated dogs and cats, this is why it is unlikely it came from wild dogs or racoons.

 

 

[Mirzam]

Originally Posted by starrlamia 

from what i have read they are not 100% sure on where it originated, that is one theory but has not been substantiated (in fact i have seen studies stating it was not a feline mutation). They also have not concluded 100% whether it was "man made" that is a theory. In any case whether it was man made or not it kills thousands of dogs every year, and is a very serious condition that can cost thousands of dollars to treat.
 

Well, no pharmaceutical company is going to admit to creating canine parvovirus are they? Yes, it has killed thousands, probably more like hundreds of thousands of dogs. I guess the vaccine isn't so great, because the vaccine obviously doesn't work in many cases as vaccinated dogs do get parvo and they generally fair less well than unvaccinated dogs who get it. As most dogs get it after a visit to the vet, the vaccine likely sheds which is causing the great numbers of puppies getting sick. 

The Parvo Self Help Guide by Ambertechnology makers of Parvaid is worth downloading (free) for a less expensive and more efficacious treatment of parvo.

[lonegirl]

http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/23301.htm

In nearly 16 years in the field I have seen many cases of parvo virus.  Not one was a previously vaccinated dog.  All were unvaccinated and unprotected.  Parvo sucks!  The mortality rate is incredibly high.  The time that most pups go to the vet is also the time that they start socializing in the park....do not blame it on going to the vet.

BTW pfizer has a guarantee that will cover $5000 worth of treatment if a pet vaccinated with one of their vaccines contract the disease immunized against.  I know that merial always will cover costs if a reaction occurs.
 

Originally Posted by Mirzam 

Well, no pharmaceutical company is going to admit to creating canine parvovirus are they? Yes, it has killed thousands, probably more like hundreds of thousands of dogs. I guess the vaccine isn't so great, because the vaccine obviously doesn't work in many cases as vaccinated dogs do get parvo and they generally fair less well than unvaccinated dogs who get it. As most dogs get it after a visit to the vet, the vaccine likely sheds which is causing the great numbers of puppies getting sick. 

The Parvo Self Help Guide by Ambertechnology makers of Parvaid is worth downloading (free) for a less expensive and more efficacious treatment of parvo.

[Mirzam]

Originally Posted by lonegirl 

http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/23301.htm

In nearly 16 years in the field I have seen many cases of parvo virus.  Not one was a previously vaccinated dog.  All were unvaccinated and unprotected.  Parvo sucks!  The mortality rate is incredibly high.  The time that most pups go to the vet is also the time that they start socializing in the park....do not blame it on going to the vet.

BTW pfizer has a guarantee that will cover $5000 worth of treatment if a pet vaccinated with one of their vaccines contract the disease immunized against.  I know that merial always will cover costs if a reaction occurs.
 

Who takes 8 week old puppies to the dog park?   How many naturally reared dogs, that is, completely unvaccinated, never chemically wormed or given chemical flea and tick meds and fed a species appropriate raw food diet, do you get in your vet practice? Precious few, if any, I would think, you probably wouldn't accept them as patients.

I know of someone who is currently dealing with parvo, she had four pups ready to go to their homes, one went to the vet to get vaxed and they come down with parvo. Where do you think they got the parvo from? I would say it was from the puppy that went to the vet and was vaxed and shed the vaccine. No vet, no vaccine, no parvo. Parvo is an evil curse that should never had been wrought on the canine population.

How magnanimous of Merial. Do they make the distemper vax? I know someone who lost a recently vaxed puppy to distemper.

[starrlamia]

the parvo could have come from anywhere, the person could have tracked it into their house on their shoes. Vets have quarintine units and strict policies on treating dogs with parvo, if a dog was likely to get it at the vets office it would be an accident and i highly doubt it would occur that often. It is very unlikely for your dog to get parvo if it has been fully vaccinated and has developed antibodies (im not talking about puppies). IMO if you live in an area with a high prevelance of parvo, and you are taking your dogs out and about it is probably safer to get your dog vaccinated, but to do titres afterward to avoid over vaccinations.

I would think most natural rearers are smart enough not to take their dog to a dog park but unfortunately the vast majority of dog owners are not as well versed in these kinds of things and have absolutely no idea how terrible dog parks are or even that they should be careful with a young pup to avoid parvo.

While I totally respect your view (and even agree with some of it), I really get tired of the conspiracy theories that float around when a lot of people dont actually know 100% what they are talking about, not that I am saying you dont, but it is a little far out there with little evidence to back it up (and people tend to make a lot of assumptions).

ETA i misread dont mind me i have pneumonia lol

[lonegirl]

Originally Posted by Mirzam 

Who takes 8 week old puppies to the dog park?   How many naturally reared dogs, that is, completely unvaccinated, never chemically wormed or given chemical flea and tick meds and fed a species appropriate raw food diet, do you get in your vet practice? Precious few, if any, I would think, you probably wouldn't accept them as patients.

I know of someone who is currently dealing with parvo, she had four pups ready to go to their homes, one went to the vet to get vaxed and they come down with parvo. Where do you think they got the parvo from? I would say it was from the puppy that went to the vet and was vaxed and shed the vaccine. No vet, no vaccine, no parvo. Parvo is an evil curse that should never had been wrought on the canine population.

How magnanimous of Merial. Do they make the distemper vax? I know someone who lost a recently vaxed puppy to distemper.

Did the vet come to this conclusion?  Merial and Pfizer are two of the big vaccine companies.  It would depend on which one was used.  We recently had  a pup who had a vaccine reaction and one of our vets called both companies (as vaccs from each company were used and it was unknown exactly which caused the problem).  Both offered to cover up to $1000 in that case (it was a strong but non-life threatening reaction).

I also agree with Starlamia...parvo can be picked up from virtually anywhere and carried in as it is shed in feces and can be picked up from contaminated dishes, collars, bedding, etc.  Like someone with a cold...initially there are no/few symptoms but the dog is shedding the virus and unless the person walking the affected dog is out there soaking down the sidewalk with bleach the chances are high that it be spread.  Oh and 8-16weeks is when people start introducing puppy classes, taking them for walks (Even if only on the sidewalk-not everyone has a back yard)...so yes they do get interaction with other pups/dogs.

[Imakcerka]

I've heard of puppies getting parvo and being vaccinated. I imagine it's rare, but we went to a memorial for DD1's friends puppy. He's was 1, contacted parvo and passed away. It can happen.

Pharm companies are trying to corner the veterinarian market, right now it only makes up less than 10% of their profits. Not to say that anything and everything they do is for profit but start looking for new vaccines and ailments that they can cure with whatever they come up with.

Also never just take the word of someone because of their "status".

[Arduinna]

Eh, I'm with Mirzam. I don't vax my kids or myself and I don't vax my pets anymore. My dogs are fed a prey model raw diet and haven't been vaxed by me. Their breeders did vax them as puppies, two of them only got the first puppy shot. They are 9 and 8 years and I also have a German Shepherd puppy that is coming up on a year old. I can't even remember the last time I had a dog licensed. I do use heartworm meds and will use flea meds though and wormers. My cats were rescues and had tapeworm I had no problem using wormers to get rid of them.

But then I also think that AKC championships for many breeds are highly over rated, especially for the breeds I favor. I don't care where working and hunting dogs place in the show ring when choosing a puppy. I also can't stand AKC show lines German Shepherds. 

[starrlamia]

i dont care for conformation either, but titling a dog does help prove it is worth breeding and furthering the lines, hunting and working dogs prove themselves otherwise and is much better judgement of a dog then conformtion, I agree about show line GSDs I hate watching them try and run with their messed up rear ends :(
 

Originally Posted by Arduinna 

Eh, I'm with Mirzam. I don't vax my kids or myself and I don't vax my pets anymore. My dogs are fed a prey model raw diet and haven't been vaxed by me. Their breeders did vax them as puppies, two of them only got the first puppy shot. They are 9 and 8 years and I also have a German Shepherd puppy that is coming up on a year old. I can't even remember the last time I had a dog licensed. I do use heartworm meds and will use flea meds though and wormers. My cats were rescues and had tapeworm I had no problem using wormers to get rid of them.

But then I also think that AKC championships for many breeds are highly over rated, especially for the breeds I favor. I don't care where working and hunting dogs place in the show ring when choosing a puppy. I also can't stand AKC show lines German Shepherds. 

[cameragirl]

Originally Posted by Arduinna 

Eh, I'm with Mirzam. I don't vax my kids or myself and I don't vax my pets anymore. My dogs are fed a prey model raw diet and haven't been vaxed by me. Their breeders did vax them as puppies, two of them only got the first puppy shot. They are 9 and 8 years and I also have a German Shepherd puppy that is coming up on a year old. I can't even remember the last time I had a dog licensed. I do use heartworm meds and will use flea meds though and wormers. My cats were rescues and had tapeworm I had no problem using wormers to get rid of them.

But then I also think that AKC championships for many breeds are highly over rated, especially for the breeds I favor. I don't care where working and hunting dogs place in the show ring when choosing a puppy. I also can't stand AKC show lines German Shepherds. 

I had to put down my JRT last year for issues due to breeding. I got the dog after he was sold back to the breeder when cataracts were found at age 3. The breeder had him neutered and stopped using that line, and the cataracts were likely congenital. (Same line as Wishbone and Frasier's dog.) Aside from the cataracts, he had severe allergies to foods, and flea bites. We had to be extremely careful about his food. He went downhill fast at age 13 from neurological issues, but should have still had at least a couple good years left. Irresponsible breeding makes me sick.

[lonegirl]

Originally Posted by cameragirl 



I had to put down my JRT last year for issues due to breeding. I got the dog after he was sold back to the breeder when cataracts were found at age 3. The breeder had him neutered and stopped using that line, and the cataracts were likely congenital. (Same line as Wishbone and Frasier's dog.) Aside from the cataracts, he had severe allergies to foods, and flea bites. We had to be extremely careful about his food. He went downhill fast at age 13 from neurological issues, but should have still had at least a couple good years left. Irresponsible breeding makes me sick.

13 is still not bad (early 70s for a smaller breed).  I was thinking you were going to say 5y/o. 

I do agree though, that bad breeding/overbreeding is the cause of many issues in dog.

 

[cameragirl]

No, 13 isn't horrible. It took a lot of veterinary care and hard earned money to keep the poor guy around for that long, though. By 5 he was mostly blind and likely saw very little, though.