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I see lots and lots of options in girls'/women's swim wear.
I have boys, but I've noticed lots of options in female swimwear, too. I tried buying boy-shorts type swimsuits for myself once or twice, but I have thick thighs and they just roll up and give me a wedgie. So yeah, I end up wearing regular panty-style swim bottoms....and yeah, I shave a bit to wear them, but it still ends up being more comfortable.
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I have boys, but I've noticed lots of options in female swimwear, too. I tried buying boy-shorts type swimsuits for myself once or twice, but I have thick thighs and they just roll up and give me a wedgie. So yeah, I end up wearing regular panty-style swim bottoms....and yeah, I shave a bit to wear them, but it still ends up being more comfortable.
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I have only boys right now. If we have a girl, she will learn what our boys learn: Private parts are private. They are not nasty, not shameful. But they are private. So dress/sit/pose in a way that keeps that in mind. I wouldn't want my boys sitting with legs wide open and crotches thrust forward anymore than I'd want a daughter to sit that way. To me that is just across the board inappropriate.
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I don't have any issue with raising my children to be polite and socially appropriate, and since we have a bi-cultural family, they are learning that "socially appropriate" varies, and we give consideration to whatever culture we're immersed in at a given moment.
I have never thought of closing ones legs, or crossing them, while wearing a dress means you are trying to hide your vagina (and, yeah, it's vulva - it would take more than a casual glance to see one's vagina, even w/o underwear).Â
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Legs crossed or closed together is so that everyone else isn't seeing your underwear. Same goes for men/boys who wear really baggy/gaping shorts.Â
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I guess the whole "vagina shaming" thing never crossed my mind, especially with regards to telling a little girl to not flash her undies. I mean, come on, there is nothing sexual about a child, anyhow. Just as you would not wear a long t-shirt and underwear only to the grocery store, you don't walk around holding your skirt up. It's common courtesy, b/c underwear are private, b/c they are designed cover private areas. Ditto for bras.Â
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For my own DD: she is 10 now, and never really had a major "must wear a dress stage" that I can recall. I also don't recall making her wear shorts or being stressed about her showing off her undies, so I guess it wasn't an issue. But I wouldn't go around teaching her that because society expects that, in most public places, underwear go under what you wear - that it's anything against feminism or means you can't love your vagina/penis all the same.Â
Granted, I rarely go shopping for swimwear....but I have yet to find shorts-style swimwear that are cut for women with bubble butts. They are always too tight in the hips and too big in the waist, as if they were cut for a guy. If you have a recommendation, I welcome it.
board shorts are really popular where we live. Longer suits for competitive swimming are around, but not really popular yet.
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I see lots and lots of options in girls'/women's swim wear.
Maybe it's regional. I only see the bra/panties bathingsuits for girls around where I live but I live among a culture where hyper-femininity and the passage from girl to womanhood are celebrated in a major way. Very little girls here wear hair-gel, lip gloss, glitter, nail polish, pumps ect. and moms boast about their daughters' bra sizes. I know it's not very MDCish.
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Granted, I rarely go shopping for swimwear....but I have yet to find shorts-style swimwear that are cut for women with bubble butts. They are always too tight in the hips and too big in the waist, as if they were cut for a guy. If you have a recommendation, I welcome it.
2xy, I like Athleta's stuff, but not sure if it's quite bubble butt material or not.
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I see tons of rash guards and board shorts here and my dd2 has a swim mini skirt that she loves.Â
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They are men shorts and I have a gadunk a dunk! Sweet Judas blessed me with my hispanic jeans. I have to try quite a few on but it's not that bad. Boy stuff is pretty roomy!
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Granted, I rarely go shopping for swimwear....but I have yet to find shorts-style swimwear that are cut for women with bubble butts. They are always too tight in the hips and too big in the waist, as if they were cut for a guy. If you have a recommendation, I welcome it.
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I'm not sure what age we started to teach dd1 that it was considered to be less than the best manners to have one's underwear hanging out all the time. I know it wasn't as young as three, though. I don't care even a little bit if I see a child's underwear while they're playing, running around, etc. I have no interest in requiring my dd2 to be "ladylike", although I'll teach them the "rules"...at least as far as I understand them (I've never been very ladylike, and I'm more than okay with that). If someone else gets bent about the fact that my little girl (either of them) has visible underwear, said "someone else" will be invited not to look at her. My kids always wear underwear (okay - I lie - ds2 is a wiz at slipping under my radar and going commando, but we try), so the issue of their privates not being private doesn't even arise.
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Someone upthread said something about dresses and skirts being intended to prevent rough-housing and climbing and such. It's possible that such limits were a factor in the way gender has been assigned to clothing...but it doesn't work. If a child is allowed to play wildly outdoors, and wants to do so, a dress won't stop her. I've seen dd1 dig for bugs in a Disney princess dress, and climb playground structures and turn cartwheels in other dresses, and tear through the woods in a skirt and shirt. I, personally, loved skirts and dresses as a child (funny, because I can't stand them now)...and my favourite games were playing superheroes, playing in dirt and stuff (usually studying bugs and small critters - caterpillars were my favourite) and climbing around on playground structures. I thought dolls were boring, and had less than no interest in playing house, or having tea parties or whatever. It's not hard to climb a tree in a skirt, as long as the skirt isn't too long or full, and you're allowed to do it in the first place.
Granted, I rarely go shopping for swimwear....but I have yet to find shorts-style swimwear that are cut for women with bubble butts. They are always too tight in the hips and too big in the waist, as if they were cut for a guy. If you have a recommendation, I welcome it.
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Have you considered the traditional swim bottom with the skirt sewn around the outside of it? I use that in the pool and it never lifts up to show that I don't shave my pubic hair. If you just want a cover without having to shave it may work. I have also used the separate wrap around with good results.Â
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Just a thought to throw out there, but it's really kind of OT...
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With respect to the inherent sexism or lack therof in this topic, and whether it's vagina/vulva/labia shaming...when I saw the thread title, I assumed it was with respect to an obnoxious remark to a pregnant woman or a mom of many. When I've heard the expression "keep your legs closed", it's always, always, always, without a single exception that I can remember, been about a woman's sexual behaviour.
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I've also known guys to wear kilts, in the traditional (ie. commando) style at social events. I've never heard one of them be told to "close their legs" if they happen to be sitting with their legs apart. Admittedly, the kilts have been long enough to cover their actual genitalia...but women and girls are told that, even when everything is covered.
Sorry the kilt thing made me laugh and reminded me of the time my uncle and his boys wore kilts at his wedding. Oh the alcohol was a terrible mix. And yes we all saw more than we wanted and you're right not one person said anything. It was all giggles and "oh my goodness, did you see that Irene?" Flipping disgusting though. I'm sure I'll get blasted for saying man balls are disgusting. Seriously it was my uncle it was gross! He's ginormous and I'm not sure if that was his balls or part of his belly/thighs... maybe knees... HA! Just had to add that.
Just a thought to throw out there, but it's really kind of OT...
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With respect to the inherent sexism or lack therof in this topic, and whether it's vagina/vulva/labia shaming...when I saw the thread title, I assumed it was with respect to an obnoxious remark to a pregnant woman or a mom of many. When I've heard the expression "keep your legs closed", it's always, always, always, without a single exception that I can remember, been about a woman's sexual behaviour.
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I've also known guys to wear kilts, in the traditional (ie. commando) style at social events. I've never heard one of them be told to "close their legs" if they happen to be sitting with their legs apart. Admittedly, the kilts have been long enough to cover their actual genitalia...but women and girls are told that, even when everything is covered.
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"Since when did UNDERWEAR become something to worry about?"
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I've always thought that you didn't go around letting people see your underwear.
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I don't want anyone seeing *my* underwear, but I see it as completely normal and fine for a three year old to be showing her underwear  --  and probably much older, somewhere closer to 10, I think.  If I had a daughter, she'd be much older than that before I'd have to *do something* about her showing her underwear because she's playing or sitting comfortably.  And if it did get to the age that I felt I had to do something, it would not be to say she should close her legs.  It would probably be something more along the lines of it makes people feel uncomfortable if they can see other people unders, and I'd make it clear that it was only about some people being uncomfortable, ie, not a problem with her vulva or vagina or style of underwear or anything that she should feel bad about, but just about getting along in this world where some people get uncomfortable about silly things. Â
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The waist band to boys and mens underpants shows in back any time their shirt tails ride up when they sit down. Doesn't offend anyone unless their butt cracks are showing.
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And men sit with their legs spread apart all the time. Never heard anyone complain about it.
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What I don't get are girls bathing suits. Why are girls expected to go around in bra/underpants swimwear that will require them to have to remove their pubic hair as soon as it grows in while boys get to swim in regular shorts?
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I can't believe there are people fighting this point about girls being made to wear very revealing suits when boys are not. Â It might be *possible* to find suits that aren't revealing for girls (I don't know, I haven't tried), but when I go to the beach or public swimming pool here, almost all of the little girls are in bikinis and then maybe a couple in tankini or one pieces, with the traditional underwear type legs (or lack of legs). Â These are so much more form fitting and revealing than what little boys swim in. Â It is amazing to me that we even make bikinis for tiny little girls. Â Ugh. Â I feel yucky just to see it. Â If little boys can go in no shirt, than why not little girls, and if little boys have to wear a protective rash guard shirt, then why shouldn't the girls. Â It makes no sense to me. Â Why would a little girl need two little triangles to cover her someday breasts??? Â If I had a little girl, I'm pretty sure I'd be buying her board shorts and rash guard sets like I do for my boys. Â
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And for the record, I remember at a very young age (13 maybe) feeling like I needed to shave along my bikini line, and I also was pretty disinclined to show off my body. Â I was not in a bikini for sure, and probably went out of my way to find the most conservative suit I could. Â
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I love the (mostly) positive vibe of this thread.
My daughter wears skirts and dresses a lot and is always monkeying around, so it's basically inevitable that anyone around sees her pants at one time or another. I've never scolded her about it, it didn't even occur to me. She's 6 now and developing a bit of a sense of modesty on her own and doesn't want anyone to see her underwear, so it's basically a self-limiting behavior (flashing her pants by accident, that is). No shame, no need to harp on her about it.
This is what I was thinking. Â My son is 8 and I think he'd be feeling pretty uneasy about having his underwear showing and would have been for at least a year now. Â As far as I'm concerned a 5, 6, 7 year old showing their underwear is just a non-issue.
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With respect to the inherent sexism or lack therof in this topic, and whether it's vagina/vulva/labia shaming...when I saw the thread title, I assumed it was with respect to an obnoxious remark to a pregnant woman or a mom of many. When I've heard the expression "keep your legs closed", it's always, always, always, without a single exception that I can remember, been about a woman's sexual behaviour.
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I think the two things  --  "keep your legs closed" and stop being a tramp and "keep your legs closed" to be ladylike  --  are different sides of the same coin.  Either way you're still worried about the "lurking vagina" (lol, OP, nice phrase!) and I do think the two ideas are related culturally.  And I do think it's shaming for girls to grow up with people telling them to "keep their legs shut" or anything along those lines.  With the right attitude, "don't show your underwear" sounds better to me, but if it's said with the same feeling as "keep your legs shut," eh, not so much...
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My girl is still a baby, so this hasn't come up yet, but this thread makes me think I should warn her about, at the very least, other people's attitudes towards this. I had a kid in my middle school gym class (ah, middle school, that bastion of social indoctrination) tell me I shouldn't sit with my legs apart. I'd rather that my daughter find out from me that some people think that, before somebody else decides to tell her and be a lot less nice about it.
I have 3 girls and I've only said it when space on the plane, in a car, etc is the issue, not hiding underclothes!
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At about age 4 I start requiring underwear with shorts that may have wider leg openings just to keep things hidden for other people's comfort levels. I figure they need to start keeping underwear hidden (it is called UNDERwear afterall) around the same time they might start being uncomfortable with peers seeing their underwear and therefore doesn't need to be taught.
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We're not the most proper people 'round here though, so take this with a grain of salt!
I was thinking of this thread yesterday. There are some things, that I just don't understand about this, and am honestly asking about things I'm puzzled over. How can the OP be so passionate about something and not even know the proper body parts? As others have pointed out, it would be the labia showing, not the vagina. That seems so odd to me. Also, why would a woman's strength come from her vagina? That's like telling a boy that his penis is what makes him a strong man... and that's just, IDK, wrong? In my mind it is, anyway. I feel that raising daughters with strong character, thinking for themselves, has nothing to do with their strength as sexual beings. To me they are two different lessons. We are teaching them to be strong women LONG before there is any social impact of them as sexual beings.
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I also don't get why "acting like a lady" is negative. To me, it's more about manners and being polite. We live in a society. What good comes from letting dd wear loose underwear and a skirt on the playground so that boys (who will tease) and girls (who will also tease) and adults (who will scratch their heads) can see her labia while playing? What "power" does that give her? How is teaching public modesty, without shaming, negative? What are we taking away by saying to sit with the knees together when wearing a skirt? At home, do what you want... but since none of us live isolated, I think it's important to understand the social mores where you live and culturally accept them as the unwritten social contract. And as a huge breastfeeding advocate, if we want to talk about this kind of power in women, by god, it's in their breasts as much as it is in their vagina! If we're going to expose ourselves, let's start up top. ;)
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(Also, I've never heard anywhere, a woman in slacks or shorts being told to keep their knees together. Never. Even in conservative muslim countries. But my cousin, who plays the bagpipes, does sit with his knees together when wearing his kilt.)
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We were at chamber concert yesterday and dd, wearing a longer Land's End dress, sat with her legs "criss-cross-applesauce" in the seat, with the skirt pulled over her knees (no panties showing). The lead violinist was a female, on the edge of her seat in her long, formal dress, with her legs spread wide with her impassioned performance. I cannot even imagine that anyone would tell either of them to sit with their knees together because "there's a vagina lurking underneath". That, to me, sounds like a personal hang-up and not something that is prevalent in our society. Yeah, if your skirt is shorter than knee-length, have some manners, but pants, long skirts and the like... nope, I don't see it.
my opinion:
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1) a 3 year old cannot be expected to sit still, let alone sit with their legs closed or even sit up straight for any length of time. at least not my kids!
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2) my DD, who is 5, is going to be wearing shorts under her skirts for a long time yet. she cannot sit still yet.
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3) it is so not about her vagina! she wears underwear every day, so the vagina is always covered up. it's about the underwear and "flashing" in general. yes, it is innocent -- she is a young child. but it is my job to protect her. unfortunately, there are plenty of perverts out there in the world, and i sure don't enjoy the thought of any of them sneaking a peek at my dear child's skivvies. sorry... just no.
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4) she has no problem with wearing the shorts. i simply frame it as nobody wants to see underpants. that's why they are called "under" wear. you wear them under your clothes!
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BINGO!!!! I have never, to my knowledge, told my daughter that she should "close her legs" nor have I ever told her that she should be ashamed of her private parts. I do, however, spend a lot of time telling her to please pull her dress/skirt/jumper what-have-you down, and it is totally because there are, unfortunately, too many pervs and weirdos in the world who get their jollies by exploiting what should be totally innocent. I don't let my daughter wear two-piece bathing suits to public pools or to the beach for the same reason. She's five years old, it should be safe for her to run around stark naked in the front yard if she chooses to, but sadly, it is not and it is my job to protect her from prying eyes until she is old enough to protect herself. My daughter is allowed to be a free spirit; she wrestles with her little brother, she plays with trucks and cars as often as she does her dolls, she digs in the dirt and hunts for bugs and given the choice, will nearly always pick a skirt or a dress over pants. To me, it's not teaching her to be ashamed of her femininity when I have her wear shorts underneath, it's a matter of making it safer for her to move and act and play in whatever way she feels is natural. Â
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Maybe it's regional. I only see the bra/panties bathingsuits for girls around where I live but I live among a culture where hyper-femininity and the passage from girl to womanhood are celebrated in a major way. Very little girls here wear hair-gel, lip gloss, glitter, nail polish, pumps ect. and moms boast about their daughters' bra sizes. I know it's not very MDCish.
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 try Sports Authority. They have a girl's department here, and they sell board shorts and racing style Speedos. Competitive swimming is wonderful for kids for many, many reasons, but one of the thing my DDs got out of it was a deep desire to wear swim suits that stay put! For them, it's all about the flip turn, their time in the 200 IM, etc. A suit like this:
http://www.dickssportinggoods.com/product/index.jsp?productId=11801766&cid=CSE:BingShopping
is a much better bet than the cutesie things sold at the mall.  They also know that any one who thinks their suit is dorky is very beatable across the pool. I like their focus on what they can DO rather than what they look like. 
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I also don't get why "acting like a lady" is negative. To me, it's more about manners and being polite. ...
(Also, I've never heard anywhere, a woman in slacks or shorts being told to keep their knees together. Never. Even in conservative muslim countries. But my cousin, who plays the bagpipes, does sit with his knees together when wearing his kilt.)
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We were at chamber concert yesterday and dd, wearing a longer Land's End dress, sat with her legs "criss-cross-applesauce" in the seat, with the skirt pulled over her knees (no panties showing).Â
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"lady like" isn't a precise term, and different people use it to mean different things. When I was growing up with my Fundy Christian parents, it meant being passive, not speaking up, taking care of others, always putting myself last, and looking pretty without ever drawing attention to my sexuality. It's the combination of focus on appearance combined with passivity that causes me to cringe. Plus, I've seldom heard in used in a positive way -- I hear people point out to girls when they AREN'T lady like. I don't hear people using it to describe women in positive ways, just put down little girls and tell them how they are missing the mark, using by moving.Â
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Crossing legs isn't good for circulation. It's healthier to let the blood flow.
