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"Keep your legs closed" - Page 4

post #61 of 186

Think about it. If you, as a mom and adult, were going to wear a skirt or dress and planned to be on the monkey bars hanging upside down, wouldn't you rather have shorts on? That's all it is for me. I'm not much of a skirt/dress woman myself, but if I do wear one I do make sure my undies aren't showing and I teach my girls to do the same. I don't tell them not to climb on the monkey bars, nor do I insist that they not wear skirts if they're planning on climbing the monkey bars, but shorts underneath are a good compromise for me. I view my job as a parent as guiding my kids toward adulthood. This is one step on the way for me. 

 

I like Lands End bathing suits for my girls. They're feminine w/o being skanky, even the bikinis. Podsnap, I think bathing suits are very regional. I have a mom acquaintance who came from a region in the US where bikinis were the norm for moms, too, but when she came here she got a tankini because she saw that not as many moms wear bikinis. Some do, though, and I think she would have been fine to wear one, but for whatever reason she didn't feel comfortable. I prefer the boy shorts (not board shorts, but the tight ones) so I don't have to shave because I'm too d@mn lazy and I don't like the skirts. I know moms and girls in my area who wear bikinis, tankinis, competitive suits, skirt suits, board shorts and rash guards. The pool culture in my area is actually very focused on swim team so there are lots of competitive suits in our local pools. In my area there's definitely nail polish, but not so much the other products, hair gel, etc. 

post #62 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by Linda on the move View Post

 

"lady like" isn't a precise term, and different people use it to mean different things. When I was growing up with my Fundy Christian parents, it meant being passive, not speaking up, taking care of others, always putting myself last, and looking pretty without ever drawing attention to my sexuality. It's the combination of focus on appearance combined with passivity that causes me to cringe. Plus, I've seldom heard in used in a positive way -- I hear people point out to girls when they AREN'T lady like. I don't hear people using it to describe women in positive ways, just put down little girls and tell them how they are missing the mark, using by moving. 

 

Crossing legs isn't good for circulation. It's healthier to let the blood flow.


Put that way, I can understand the negative connotation.  That almost sounds like the christian attitude of a wife submitting herself to her husband. 

 

That wasn't my experience with the term, so it holds no negativity for me.  It did include dressing modestly as a young girl, but more like having manners, not gossiping, not commenting on a person's physical traits, not commenting if someone is rude and being able to smooth over arguments, giving people the benefit of the doubt, etc.  It didn't make me feel that had to be less of what I am, especially female, but more of what I could be.  Some stuck, some didn't, so I'm not sure how it all turned out.  winky.gif

 

I agree about the circulation.  I was taught to cross at the ankles and pull the feet back to the side a bit.  That way, you never had to get up and promptly fall down on your face when you realized your foot went to sleep.

 

post #63 of 186

Nearly all of my DD's skirts come with little built-in shorts. When she wears the ones that don't, I put little legging-type shorts on underneath. That way she has freedom of movement and never has to hear me telling her to sit in such a way that her undies are covered. I would never use the phrases, "Sit like a lady" or, "Be ladylike," but I might say, "Oops, your undies are showing" or something, just like I sometimes do to DS if he pulls up his shorts/undies in a weird way and they end up twisted or with the undies sticking out the top. In our family undies are meant to be concealed under clothes -- I don't think that's oppressive in and of itself, and I don't think the gentle reminders I give my kids about it are oppressive either. 

 

I saw it mentioned a couple of times in this thread, but I've never in my life heard someone tell a girl wearing pants to close her legs. I can definitely see how that starts to veer into, "Hide your sinful place" territory. 

post #64 of 186
Oh please velochic. Stop taking it so seriously. We all know it's the frikkin' labia. The OP called it a vagina. So the frick what? Your comment was extremely Rude.
Quote:
Originally Posted by velochic View Post

I was thinking of this thread yesterday.  There are some things, that I just don't understand about this, and am honestly asking about things I'm puzzled over.  How can the OP be so passionate about something and not even know the proper body parts?  As others have pointed out, it would be the labia showing, not the vagina

post #65 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by *bejeweled* View Post


Oh please velochic. Stop taking it so seriously. We all know it's the frikkin' labia. The OP called it a vagina. So the frick what? Your comment was extremely Rude.
Quote:
Originally Posted by velochic View Post

I was thinking of this thread yesterday.  There are some things, that I just don't understand about this, and am honestly asking about things I'm puzzled over.  How can the OP be so passionate about something and not even know the proper body parts?  As others have pointed out, it would be the labia showing, not the vagina



Yes, only those that are properly educated can be passionate about things. /sarcasm

 

Seriously, I just don't see why this is a debate anymore.  Yup, most women understand that what you can see is the vulva.  But we just refer to the whole area as "vagina".  It's like when I'm talking to my son about his penis.  We've started differentiating between glans/shaft/foreskin, but it's still all together his "penis".  SAME THING.

post #66 of 186

I have a pubescent girl who is COMPLETELY unaware of where her body is and whether or not it is covered.  Coupled with a body that is kind of an odd shape, she often has pants falling down too low on her bum or something similar.  Not about shame, but there are social norms that are important to follow within reason.  I do remind her to pull up her pants or generally rearrange her clothes. 

 

When she was younger, we just tossed leggings/bike shorts whatever on underneath a skirt or dress- it made it a complete non-issue. 

 

I have essentially the same rules regarding modesty for all my kids- male or female:

 

Put on weather appropriate clothing if we are going out in public.  If you are over 4/5 (old enough to realize that society does expect you to wear clothes) wear clothes at all times.  In the house with just family around lounging in a tank top and a pair of undies on a hot day is understandable, but adding some shorts is preferable. Toddlers and kids learning about using the toilet are often naked from the waist down. Kids in diapers often wear just a shirt and a diaper in warmer weather.  

 

 

 

 

 

post #67 of 186

As for the term "ladylike"....I can only recall one person ever telling me I was being unladylike. I was 17. He was one of my very best friends in high school, and we had just gotten finished with playing basketball, for Pete's sake. eyesroll.gif  We were sitting on the floor of the gym, backs against the wall, drinking water. I was sitting with my legs bent, feet flat on the floor, knees apart.

 

He looked disturbed and said that the way I was sitting wasn't "ladylike." I told him that a BJ wasn't ladylike, either, but I bet he never complained about that. He turned red and shut up.

post #68 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by velochic View Post

It did include dressing modestly as a young girl, but more like having manners, not gossiping, not commenting on a person's physical traits, not commenting if someone is rude and being able to smooth over arguments, giving people the benefit of the doubt, etc.


Other than modesty, but that seems like basic behavior  for all humans, not just females.

 

I don't see polite behavior any different for males and females. Therefore, I don't see polite behavior as "ladylike."

post #69 of 186

If keeping your legs closed is considered shaming... is being told to act like a lady demeaning?  

 

I just told my cowork to shut his legs.  He has a stain on his pants from his coffee... looks like poo squirts! 

post #70 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazurii View Post
Seriously, I just don't see why this is a debate anymore.  Yup, most women understand that what you can see is the vulva.  But we just refer to the whole area as "vagina".  It's like when I'm talking to my son about his penis.  We've started differentiating between glans/shaft/foreskin, but it's still all together his "penis".  SAME THING.


Actually,  what you can SEE is the labia and the entire "area" is properly referred to as the vulva not the vagina. The term vulva refers to the external genital organs of any female mammal. We taught our three year old to say vulva because both DH and I are overly pedantic and obsessed with encouraging her to have an accurate/varied vocabulary, but this post has made me reconsider the implications of different word choices in relation to this topic and now I'm finding other reasons to be annoyed by the use of "vagina" when someone actually means "vulva".... Basically, the hyper focus on vaginas is a focus on the sexual/reproductive aspects of a girl's body and that really shouldn't be an issue for girls as young as three. It really shouldn't be an issue prior to the onset of menstruation. The term vulva--which encompasses all the parts people are worried about other people seeing or not seeing or whatever--only technically includes the opening of the vagina, not the entire structure. I'm actually not sure that my three year old even realizes that she HAS a vagina although she certainly has some idea of what they are and how they function after the birth of her sister. 

post #71 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by *bejeweled* View Post

Oh please velochic. Stop taking it so seriously. We all know it's the frikkin' labia. The OP called it a vagina. So the frick what? Your comment was extremely Rude.


Don't you understand that if you arent educated about the correct terminology of the parts of a woman's body you arent allowed to have feelings or be passionate about it?
post #72 of 186

I have a 4 yo DD who loves dresses.  Nine times out of ten, she pairs them with leggings or shorts (or another tutu or whatever--her choice--she picks out 99% of her outfits).  She does like to go upside down on the couch, etc.  It usually isn't an issue--because if you do see her undies it's a quick glimpse as she flips back over.  However, sometimes we'll tell her, "I can see your undies"...and she puts her dress down.    It's not a big deal--or about vulva-shaming either.  We'll let our boys know if their undies are showing as well. We'll say something like, " Undies go underneath our clothes--so in general, we don't show them to other people."

post #73 of 186

We use correct terms in our house.  As correct as I see them

 

Cookie

Hooha

hoodi hoo

Vajayjay

Tootie

tootems

Bootyhox

Banjo  My favorite!

 

And yes they know these correct terms by heart and use them properly!

post #74 of 186

ok... so... i am genuinely wondering, not trying to be a smartiepants... 

so if you wear something that requires you to wear a whole other complete item of clothing beneath it, what is the purpose of wearing item 1 in the first place? 

i don't put skirts/dresses on my kid, and from what i see, the kids who do wear them seem encumbered, for the most part.  i know there are different kinds of skirts that don't restrict movement but mostly i just don't get the point.

post #75 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by hildare View Post

ok... so... i am genuinely wondering, not trying to be a smartiepants... 

so if you wear something that requires you to wear a whole other complete item of clothing beneath it, what is the purpose of wearing item 1 in the first place? 

i don't put skirts/dresses on my kid, and from what i see, the kids who do wear them seem encumbered, for the most part.  i know there are different kinds of skirts that don't restrict movement but mostly i just don't get the point.


My kids love skirts.  I wouldn't dream of telling them they couldn't wear a skirt because I have them wear shorts underneath.  The point for them is the swishy-swirly fun of the skirt.

 

post #76 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by hildare View Post

 

so if you wear something that requires you to wear a whole other complete item of clothing beneath it, what is the purpose of wearing item 1 in the first place? 

 


because the child likes the dress or skirt and wants to wear it. That's the only reason. It allow the child to make their own choices.

 

post #77 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazurii View Post

But we just refer to the whole area as "vagina". 

Sigh, its like telling your daughter she's wearing her innards outside of her. The area you see is the vulva/labia. Only the canal inside is the vagina..... that really is never seen by the casual eye..... even if you are a nudist.

I fail to understand why educated people intentionally get this wrong. Our daughters and sons need the language to describe every part of their body.
post #78 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imakcerka View Post

If keeping your legs closed is considered shaming... is being told to act like a lady demeaning?  


Yes, exactly!

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by philomom View Post

Sigh, its like telling your daughter she's wearing her innards outside of her. The area you see is the vulva/labia. Only the canal inside is the vagina..... that really is never seen by the casual eye..... even if you are a nudist.

I fail to understand why educated people intentionally get this wrong. Our daughters and sons need the language to describe every part of their body.


 

I don't see this as such a big deal.  A lot of people use the word "vagina" when referring to the whole package, and I feel like I can always, or at least usually, tell from context what they mean.  There is not another proper word (I mean other than things like hooha  --  though I'm more unclear on the technical meaning of hooha) for it, as far as I know.  If people are uncomfortable with or for some reason don't want to use "vulva" or "labia," why does it matter?  I'm sure we all know those words.  There are some words that really bother me because they feel like baby talk or like a way of pretending we don't really have vulvas, labias, or vaginas, like "girl parts", but if used with affection I don't have any problem with hooha or vajayjay.  If I had a little girl, I'd probably be using "vulva," "labia," and "vagina," and quite possibly using the word "vagina" to mean more than just her innards here and there, because I do think a lot of us are uncomfortable with those words because they weren't used with us as kids and I wouldn't want to pass that on to my dd.

post #79 of 186

I don't think that feeling personally uncomfortable is a good reason to give another generation the same uncomfortableness that you (generic you) grew up with. Calling all of a little girl's genitals "vagina" is like calling everything a little boy has his testicles. It's just not accurate. I don't think it's fair to kids to pass down these inaccuracies. I'd honestly rather have a slang word to use as shorthand than use a correct word but use it wrong. I'd rather have my daughter learn that sometimes we call it by a fun name than to learn the wrong words for stuff.

post #80 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by philomom View Post



Sigh, its like telling your daughter she's wearing her innards outside of her. The area you see is the vulva/labia. Only the canal inside is the vagina..... that really is never seen by the casual eye..... even if you are a nudist.

I fail to understand why educated people intentionally get this wrong. Our daughters and sons need the language to describe every part of their body.

 

I suspect this is partly a generational "hangover". While growing up, my mom was never taught the correct terms for any of her genitalia, as my grandmother was the type who tried to pretend that nobody, especially girls, even had genitals. When we were kids, mom used the "correct" terms with us, as she felt we deserved to know the names of our own body parts. However, we were taught to call the whole area the vagina. As I got older, I realized that "vagina" was a term specific to the birth canal, but I didn't know the word "vulva" and assumed for a long, long time that "vagina" was also used - correctly - as a label for a woman's entire genital area. It was after I came to MDC that I discovered the term "vulva". I was in my late 30s, and was pregnant with my third child (as well as three miscarriages before that), and had read a lot about the female body, including looking at a lot of diagrams, when I was younger. "Vulva" was an invisible word. So, even though I now know the term "vulva", and have taught it to my kids, I still sometimes slip up and say "vagina", because I have 30+ years of habit driving that usage.

 

I think that, over time, if people continue to use the correct terminology, it will become normalized. It's just going to take time.

 

 

I do have to say that, over the years, I've been somewhat horrified at the level of scorn and mockery heaped on the heads of posters who incorrectly use "vagina", instead of "vulva". We, as a culture, aren't that far removed (or removed at all, in some places) from only using cutesy names and/or completely avoiding any reference to female genitalia (except in very crude, demeaning usages by some men). Women using "vagina" are clearly making a real attempt to move away from the body shaming and nonsense that our culture has been riddled with, and I don't understand why people are so condescending when they (we? I don't think I ever posted using the incorrect term, but I certainly could have) slip up. It's not simply about clarity of communication with others, because I'm almost sure that there are more people in North America who believe that vagina is the correct term than people who know the word "vulva".
 

 

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