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post #21 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by dlm194 View Post

I would hope you didn't have any major pain!  That's plenty of pain medication there.  I am completely in favor of managing your pain but many women hesitate to do that for breastfeeding reasons (they don't want too much pain medication in their milk)

 

 



I was really just responding to Storm Bride who said she didn't know how someone could have major surgery without major pain. I was just explaining how I did it.

post #22 of 81
Thread Starter 

sandy, I can understand why you had your first c-section. Breech would be a hard decision. Yes, technically, many people can have a vaginal birth, but there is the potential for a higher risk, especially at home. I think some doctors don't feel comfortable doing it. It would better if hospitals could try some of these things more, but then they do see some as going bad quickly, if something should happen. And, honestly, I think home birth is only 'approved' by places like ACOG for low-risk women- no breech, twins, VBAC's, etc. I understand that some people do definitely manage to do these things safely at home and often with less problems from interventions, but while home birth is great when everything goes safely, if something goes wrong it could then be much safer to be in a hospital. I know that's not a good thought around mothering.com, perhaps, but I do like to go by the current standards, too, to make a decision, even if individually we may fit in differently. And to me, some VBAC moms aren't as high risk as others. If someone has already had a vaginal birth or a VBAC, then they have a proven history, making home birth a little less risky for them, even though we all (who have had a c-section) have a scar to consider. Also, women who had the original c-section for something other than their anatomy (like breech baby) may have better chances, too, than some others, though they may not have a proven history yet.

I wonder if you printed off all of the information from the NHI and ACOG about VBAC's that then your doctor would reconsider? Sometimes, or maybe mostly, this is also hospital policy, though, and they may not want to or many not to be able to change their stance. ( Some say they don't have emergency anesthesia always ready in time.)

I'll post you the two links, though, just in case you don't have them. Because that's the thing, I don't like that some women are pushed into RCS, I hope that will change. ACOG even says that some women with 2 previous c-sections can be candidates for VBAC and many hospitals do not practice this yet. Another thing I didn't like, that hospitals push for the 39 week RCS. I don't think a previous scar is enough reason not to wait until your due date. I didn't want to push it, but I thought it was a fair balance to do the RCS in my 40th week. I know 39 weeks can be safe and is certainly better than 37 weeks, but still....I wasn't comfortable with forcing baby out then without a reason. (but I can understand doing the 39 week if you are going a distance to a hospital and don't feel comfortable risking labor.)

I was fine with my RCS and chose it, but I'm sorry you don't have the choice. I'm sure it will go well and can be great, but I wish too that you had another safe choice. But, yes, without having that choice right now, I don't think that RCS is a bad thing and it is statistically better for baby (unless a VBAC went well, which of course we don't know until retrospect! and statistically, from what we know right now, RCS is riskier for mom yet still safer than a failed VBAC for baby. does that make sense?) Basically, they are both good choices, but it certainly doesn't hurt to educate on both sides and even discuss it all with the doctor or hospital. Maybe they can't change for you, but maybe they will 'get with times' from hearing from moms like you!

Here is the National Health Institute long statement about VBAC/RCS:

http://consensus.nih.gov/2010/vbacstatement.htm

And here is ACOG's statement about VBAC/VBA2C-

http://www.acog.org/from_home/publications/press_releases/nr07-21-10-1.cfm

post #23 of 81

Thank you for the links! Yes, it is a hospital ban, and people have been fighting it for years. As for home birth, or HBAC, I'm all for it, but the home birth midwives here refuse to take me on even for prenatal care. They won't see me, at all. I've been looking into this since my son was born over two years ago.

 

I can do a VBAC or a birth center birth in the next city, a three-hour drive. This is something I may still do. The logistics are a bit overwhelming. I am the breadwinner, and pretty much need to work as long as possible up to my birth. However, I can't imagine us driving down there with me in labor, and leaving my son at home. We have no family in town or in the next city. All family lives out of state. We literally live paycheck to paycheck and don't have the resources to rent a hotel for even a week, or an apartment, as I've heard that some people in my situation do. I could network to find strangers to stay with, but the thought of doing so with a toddler, for an indefinite period of time, seems impossibly overwhelming.

 

I went into labor with my son at 38 weeks, so we're looking at about a two or three week window, unless we drive down with me in labor and drive back up with a newborn.

 

You can see why I'm overwhelmed with my "choices." However, I HAVE NOT GIVEN UP!!! I just want to make it clear to some of the readers of this forum that some things are not as simple and straightforward as one might assume.

post #24 of 81


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by alittlesandy View Post

 

Being told I shouldn't talk about the benefits of RCS is NOT helpful. Being told there shouldn't be a thread like this sucks, when there are a million home birth threads that I am left out of. And don't tell me to go to a mainstream forum. I am a long-term breastfeeding, co-sleeping, selective vaxing, babywearing, AP mama who just happens, through unfortunate circumstances, to be considering an RCS.


I didn't tell you that a littlesandy.  Do NOT misquote me.  I simply stated that it was a sad when when mothering is hosting threads about how easy planned c-sections can be.  You can have a thread that talks about the benefits of RCS if you want.  But why not do everyone a favor and start it in a more APPROPRIATE forum and give it an APPROPRIATE name.  If you want to get mad that I'm writing that go ahead.  But this IS mothering.  And this IS a VBAC forum.  It should be a safe place for women to talk about their desire for VBAC - not read about how great RCS are!!!

 


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by seili View Post

Madelinesmama, yeah, I've always been surprised, too. I'm grateful for it because then the breastfeeding is a bear of pain!I don't think some people always understand that having a repeat c-section can be an okay choice for some people. Both a VBAC and RCS can have good and bad points. Statistically, a VBAC is still considered safer for mom and a RCS is considered safer for baby, so everybody has to decide for themselves how that applies to them. Though, a good, successful VBAC is better for both if it can be obtained and RCS can be worse for future pregnancies. All things to consider.You hear a lot how elective c-sections are 3x more dangerous than vaginal births, but that is actually for a completely elective c-section. It excludes medical reasons- like a scar from a previous c-section. Basically, it seems that completely elective c-sections and a planned home birth with a midwife are equal in 'danger', statistically.


Completely elective?  Can you define that?  What does it mean to be completely elective and how does "medical reasons" factor into that?  Are you trying to say the study ONLY included 1st time c-section moms who chose a c-section for no medical reason at all?  Not likely (there just aren't enough of them).  But link me the study.  Moms who have a RCS are at least twice as likely to die as moms who choose VBAC.  The risk of a UR is 0.4% in spontaneous labor.  The risk of a baby dying following a UR is 6%.

 


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by seili View Post

But, dlm, why is sad that there could be a thread about c-sections being okay? Everyone here has had a c-section, so they know whether or not it applied to them. C-sections can be just fine, though, I do think that many women are capable of having a VBAC. I just don't think it's a huge deal either way- especially if you make an informed decision.


Again, please read what I wrote.  It's MOTHERING.  You clearly haven't been here that long so you don't really understand this board.  And you are posting this stuff in a VBAC forum.  Why would post how great c-sections and RCS are in a VBAC forum?  On a board that was once devoted to natural parenting?  Years ago, there was debate on including a c-section forum (which I actually supported).  But it was voted down b/c the site did not want to host these types of threads (talking about the benefits of elective c-sections).  So that's why.  I don't expect you to understand but that's how this site was for many years.  It's sad to see the very pro-mainstream, pro-elective surgical birth sentiments infiltrate this board and especially this forum.  :(

 

Why don't you guys ask for a c-section forum now?  This board is changing and they might be receptive to it now.  I think that would be a more appropriate place for these discussions. 


Edited by dlm194 - 10/25/11 at 8:38am
post #25 of 81

Wow.

post #26 of 81

yeah wow.  rolleyes.gif

It is a sad day at mothering.com.  Very sad.  I miss the old mothering.  Now i understand why so many people left.  :(


Edited by dlm194 - 10/25/11 at 11:19am
post #27 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by seili View Post

Sorry that you've had a hard time, Storm Bride- I don't think that's unusual- it is major surgery. Not something to take likely if you don't need it. Did you start having your c-sections a while ago? I wonder if that could make a difference? I have no idea. But I do wonder if some of the techniques get better as time goes on, besides just the common low transverse instead of vertical now. But, every birth and every body is different.
 

 

My first was in '93, and that was pretty hellish, but mostly because they wouldn't let me eat. (They wouldn't with my others, either, but I learned to lie about passing gas and to sneak food in.)

 

The single biggest difference, in terms of recovery, that I've personally experienced was stitches vs. staples for the skin closure. I had staples for four of them, and stitches (at my request) for the last one. The difference was amazing. I was both considerably more mobile and in considerably less pain. I'd have never known how much difference it could make if I'd only ever had the staples, and would never have guessed it could be as significant as it was. I heartily recommend stitches to anyone who can't avoid a c-section.

post #28 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by katelove View Post



I was really just responding to Storm Bride who said she didn't know how someone could have major surgery without major pain. I was just explaining how I did it.



I wasn't really addressing hte first few days. I've never found that pain meds take away the pain, anyway. But, I meant afterwards. I've had pretty serious pain for the first couple of weeks, not days, with all of mine (and much, much longer with my fourth one, but that's a whole, ugly, nightmare saga, and the physical pain was actually the best part, because it distracted me). I get the "lots of pain meds" at first part. I just get kind of jealous of people who talk about stopping pain meds after a couple days, and not really having trouble. I stop the pain meds, too (the few I take), but it's not because it doesn't hurt. It's because I really, really hate them. It hurts.

 

I know people heal differently. It just still boggles me that people can be mostly pain free from an injury like that in just a couple days. I tend to think of you all as the surgical patient equivalent of Bruce Willis In Die Hard (running around with cut up feet, and wounds everywhere, and not even seeming to be in pain - just tired).

post #29 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by dlm194 View Post

yeah wow.  rolleyes.gif

It is a sad day at mothering.com.  Very sad.  I miss the old mothering.  Now i understand why so many people left.  :(



Did you read my post? How is my situation my fault? I feel like I've had a burning C put on my lawn and been told that the neighborhood is going to hell because people like me. I'm in a bad situation with lack of choices, one that is devastating to me. And I was talking about VBAC and the lack of good choices for having one, so why is this an inappropriate forum? My possibly facing an RCS has nothing to do any supposed changes here at Mothering. I won't discuss my limited birth options here anymore. I'm sorry. Thank you for compounding my total and complete sense of failure and isolation.

post #30 of 81
Thread Starter 

dlm, I think you might be flipping out a little over the c-section factor. Even if a woman wants a VBAC, it doesn't necessarily mean that she feels sad about her c-section. It just means that she is a good candidate for a VBAC, so why not attempt that instead? That is a recommended idea! Also, even if a woman does want a VBAC, some still will end up being RCS, so it is best to have all the education about both of them and see that they can both have good points, too.

Have you read the NHI statement on VBAC/RCS?

http://consensus.nih.gov/2010/vbacstatement.htm

And here is the study about elective c-sections vs vaginal birth (but excludes medical reasons, like a previous c-section):

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18307481

Sometimes when we just read the headlines and such it will seem to stick in our brains that it is all of one thing...like a c-section....but it's often not the whole truth. I don't know that they had to first time moms; they were just first time c-sections, that were completely elective.

And on the Facebook page, there are many naturally-minded women who are wanting VBAC's. Some aren't happy at the time with their c-sections/ others are okay or even happy with it.



 

post #31 of 81

Seili, I really like that first link. It's a fascinating read and a lot to digest. I think it's going to go a long way in helping me make my decision. Thank you!

post #32 of 81

What a great day for Mothering.com, when threads can exist that support all of women's choices in birthing, and don't stigmatize c-section moms.  :)

post #33 of 81

No, it's not sad at all.

 

Mothering has consistently refused to host a space for mothers who need or choose a CS. If they did, we wouldn't be having this discussion in the VBAC forum. And that's the sad part, that we need to be marginalized because we don't fit in Mothering's vision of natural birth.

 

I chose a repeat section for my second pregnancy. No one pressured me into it (other than me making myself crazy). My OB was skeptical I'd make it to term because I have high blood pressure, but that was a factor outside anyone's control. (In the end, I did make it to term; my section was at 39 weeks and she would not schedule it for a day before.) I did not have a perfect section, but it went much better than my first (the problems were related to blood loss and my preexisting anemia which wound up being worse than expected on delivery day. Wound up with BP in the toilet.) Despite that, I was off Percocet by day 5 and drug free by day 7.

 

RCS is a valid choice for some women, and women facing that decision need to be able to look at their own situation honestly and realistically and choose what's right for them. Unfortunately, Mothering is not really interested in hosting that discussion.

post #34 of 81

I'm all for making peace with your birth experience. However, it also irks me to think of my scar as a smile. It seems demeaning of the entire experience. I had 2 cesareans that I recovered quite easily from, however, they did not leave me feeling empowered, or even whole. I really feel that VBAC's can be so healing and encourage any mom who can, to give it a try.

 

Jenny

 

PS. I'm due any day with my fourth. My third was a home waterbirth VBAC that was incredibly healing and empowering.

post #35 of 81

Oh my, I didn't read the rest of the posts before I responded to the original post. I would never ever want a mom to feel badly for having a cesarean. I spent a lot of time feeling bad about my own cesarean experiences, feeling like I would never know what it was like to have a natural birth. It was an awful feeling:( I just don't like the idea of making light of surgical birth. It is necessary at times, but no joking matter...

 

 

Jenny

post #36 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by dlm194 View Post

yeah wow.  rolleyes.gif

It is a sad day at mothering.com.  Very sad.  I miss the old mothering.  Now i understand why so many people left.  :(



B/c people like you play the crunchier than thou game.  None of these women are saying they're having a c-section for their convenience or b/c it's fun.  I have not gotten that from this thread at all.  They are making informed medical decisions about what is best for their baby and themselves.

post #37 of 81

Uh, people didn't leave because mothering became more tolerable; people left because the moderation was to the extreme for a while there. 

 

It is okay to give advice about how to make a c-section go more smoothly or with less "drama", as well as how to find peace in the outcome, whether or not it was truly elective or if it was the only option. That doesn't equal any kind of anti-vbac opinion.

 

How in the hell is it a sad day when we can help other mothers, regardless of how their babies came into this world? It's not as if anyone said, "c-sections are always wonderful and should be sought after!"  I mean, really?!

 

 

 

 

fwiw, my c-section scar (cut into 4 times) looks more like __ than any kind of smile.  Actually, b/c I've had a laparotomy, It looks like a huge upside-down T going from my diaphram to my pubic bone.  Never thought of it as a smile.  :)

post #38 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by dlm194 View Post

yeah wow.  rolleyes.gif

It is a sad day at mothering.com.  Very sad.  I miss the old mothering.  Now i understand why so many people left.  :(



What I find sad is when a mom is told that she is wrong for accepting her c/s as necessary and that she has obviously drank too much mainstream kool ade for her own good. Yep my 2nd daughter was a c/s baby. Nope it certainly wasn't what I had planned but in the end it also wasn't the horrific nightmare that I had imagined it would be. Would I attempt a vbac if I have another baby...that I cannot answer. But regardless of my decision I would like to think that my choice would be respected here but sadly I don't see that happening.
post #39 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexisT View Post

No, it's not sad at all.

 

Mothering has consistently refused to host a space for mothers who need or choose a CS. If they did, we wouldn't be having this discussion in the VBAC forum. And that's the sad part, that we need to be marginalized because we don't fit in Mothering's vision of natural birth.

 

The most painful part of my c section has been and continues to be overcoming the feeling of failure.  I tried so hard to have a natural birth, I did everything "right", I read all the books MDC told me too, I took the classes, did the exersizes, ect ect. And I still failed.

 

The way sections are treated on this board really does marginalize those of us who have had a section. We are not invited to be part of the community, we have no home here.

 

We are limited to placing threads in forums that kinda sorta fit, and then having other posters pop in to express their disgust. We get no formal support.

 

This forum is called mothering. One of the ways many of us have become mothers is via section. But we don't get a forum to call home to discuss our experiences becoming a mother. MDC is fine to host a forum for things as specific (and really, rather unrelated to being a mother) as recycling or organizing the house, but they won't give us a forum to discuss the past, present and future issues related to how our babies came into the world? It does make me feel like I don't belong here anymore, even though I agree with and wish to discuss natural living and attachment parenting with other parents.

 

 

post #40 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenmulberry View Post

The most painful part of my c section has been and continues to be overcoming the feeling of failure.  I tried so hard to have a natural birth, I did everything "right", I read all the books MDC told me too, I took the classes, did the exersizes, ect ect. And I still failed.

 

The way sections are treated on this board really does marginalize those of us who have had a section. We are not invited to be part of the community, we have no home here.

 

We are limited to placing threads in forums that kinda sorta fit, and then having other posters pop in to express their disgust. We get no formal support.

 

This forum is called mothering. One of the ways many of us have become mothers is via section. But we don't get a forum to call home to discuss our experiences becoming a mother. MDC is fine to host a forum for things as specific (and really, rather unrelated to being a mother) as recycling or organizing the house, but they won't give us a forum to discuss the past, present and future issues related to how our babies came into the world? It does make me feel like I don't belong here anymore, even though I agree with and wish to discuss natural living and attachment parenting with other parents.

 

 



Really beautifully said greenmulberry. grouphug.gif

 

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