FB users (A, hopefully, postive page for all types of c-section moms) - Page 4

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by Multimomma 

Healing took a while, but mostly because I didn't use the pain killers in the beginning like I should have...

I'm interested in this. Why do you think that's what delayed healing? The one where I used the fewest painkillers at first was also the one where I healed the fastest. The one where I used the most painkillers at first was the one where I healed the most slowly, and the least completely. I don't see any direct connection between the minimal pain medication and the quick recovery, but there's a direct connection between using the most painkillers and the slow recovery.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by hildare 

you don't have to.

but i didn't have a section, i had a baby.  i had a birth.  i use that language to validate my birth.  i understand what you're saying but i also am weary of the more granolaer than thouers gloating about their births while talking about my "surgery."  i know you have a different viewpoint, though, but it really helps me to refer to mine as such :)
 

Fair enough. I'll just stay away from the forum, if it's called that. Every time I see 'c-birth", it's like being hit in the gut. I didn't "have a baby", either. I already had the baby. It was inside me, and then it was cut out of me.

Sorry. I try to respect everyone's reality on this - it just seems like saying "I gave birth to a tumour", or "I gave birth to my appendix". I don't know why there's been this big push to play down the fact that it's surgery.

[hildare]

Originally Posted by Storm Bride 

Fair enough. I'll just stay away from the forum, if it's called that. Every time I see 'c-birth", it's like being hit in the gut. I didn't "have a baby", either. I already had the baby. It was inside me, and then it was cut out of me.

Sorry. I try to respect everyone's reality on this - it just seems like saying "I gave birth to a tumour", or "I gave birth to my appendix". I don't know why there's been this big push to play down the fact that it's surgery.

seriously.. i think sometimes you disagree to just disagree.  i really hate that you feel that way, and i don't want to make you uncomfortable with my language, certainly not drive you away. 

can you not actually understand how some people find language choices empowering?

[alittlesandy]

Originally Posted by Storm Bride 

I'm interested in this. Why do you think that's what delayed healing? The one where I used the fewest painkillers at first was also the one where I healed the fastest. The one where I used the most painkillers at first was the one where I healed the most slowly, and the least completely. I don't see any direct connection between the minimal pain medication and the quick recovery, but there's a direct connection between using the most painkillers and the slow recovery.

I think it can go either way with painkillers. I refused them for awhile, but then realized that taking them improved the quality of my sleep and relaxation. I then took them for a week and started feeling MUCH better, because I was able to rest more. However, the next week I felt so good that I actually overdid it and had a little relapse. I think the painkillers are important for mamas who need them to relax and sleep, as long as they are careful not to misinterpret feeling better for being completely healed, which leads to participating in tasks that can counteract healing. Does that make sense?

Oh, and Storm Bride, I agree with you about "c-birth." I've never been a fan of PC language. I am not ashamed to say c-section. However, I would be so happy to have a c-section support group that I don't care WHAT it is called.

Hey, what about a group vs. a forum? Might that be better?

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by hildare 

seriously.. i think sometimes you disagree to just disagree.  i really hate that you feel that way, and i don't want to make you uncomfortable with my language, certainly not drive you away. 

can you not actually understand how some people find language choices empowering?

Yes. I just don't get how people find this language choice empowering. I mean - you put "surgery" in quotes in your previous post. It was surgery. I don't get the empowerment in treating it as something else.

And, its so far from anything I could call "giving birth" that using that terminology isn't empowering to me at all. I know others feel differently, but this is just so far from my reality that I can't even understand how this particular choice of language is empowering to anyone. And, it makes me insanely furious that the hospitals have adopted it. When I got the "cesarean birth" brochure from my OB in my last pregnancy, I wished I'd never gotten pregnant - even though I'd wanted that baby for almost 18 years at that point, and knew when I got pregnant that I'd be having another c/s. All the touchy feely "c-birth" stuff is out and out insulting and degrading to me...which is probably why I can't get the "empowered" aspect. I can't think of any experience more innately disempowering than having someone kill most of the sensation in most of my body, lie me down, perform intimate services (catheter, pads, etc.) that I can't feel, and cut me open.  And, hey - they even offer me drugs to take away my emotions about it - guess that's to make me even more "empowered"?? I, quite frankly, find "c-birth" about as empowering as referring to being mugged as "donating money to the less fortunate" or rape as "making love".

Sorry - didn't mean to rant. This one just boggles me to an extent that few things do...and I'm boggled by a lot.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by alittlesandy 

I think it can go either way with painkillers. I refused them for awhile, but then realized that taking them improved the quality of my sleep and relaxation. I then took them for a week and started feeling MUCH better, because I was able to rest more. However, the next week I felt so good that I actually overdid it and had a little relapse. I think the painkillers are important for mamas who need them to relax and sleep, as long as they are careful not to misinterpret feeling better for being completely healed, which leads to participating in tasks that can counteract healing. Does that make sense?

I can get that. The only times I took painkillers with my last one were when I wanted to sleep, and the first time I got up to use the bathroom. Mind you, I've never been able to sleep worth crap in the hospital, anyway. It's one of the many reasons I hate having c-sections. Having surgery and then having to stay somewhere for days without being able to sleep really sucks. (At least I managed to get food after my last four. I didn't eat anything but clear fluids for 3.5 days after my first one.)

Oh, and Storm Bride, I agree with you about "c-birth." I've never been a fan of PC language. I am not ashamed to say c-section. However, I would be so happy to have a c-section support group that I don't care WHAT it is called.

I don't mind people saying it for themselves, even though it makes me cringe. I'd just have trouble with it on a forum.

Hey, what about a group vs. a forum? Might that be better?

hmm...now that MDC has the groups, that might be worth a try. I do think it would serve a need here.

[rutabega]

It seems to me that the VBAC forum could be renamed as Birthing After a C-Section, or just BAC.  I think it is awesome that there is a dedicated space for women who have had a c-section have a place to talk about the many advantages of trying for a VBAC, and just some of the other issues that may come up when deciding if that is truly the best route for one's own situation.  But that's just it, isn't it?  It leaves out that having a VBAC isn't the best option for all.  I expect that most of those would be because of medical reasons, but some of those would be for mental reasons as well. 

Even though I do not post often, I am not a new person here.  When my son was born in 2002 via C-section, all the information I'd gleaned here before I gave birth and afterward as well told me that I was a Failure as a woman.  No matter that I had done everything else up until that point right.  I was a failure, and like others I could certainly process my failure here, just as long as I always acknowledged that I was a failure.  These feelings probably helped my PPD spiral downwards, and at the time there wasn't a PPD forum here at MDC.  I honestly concluded at the time that since there wasn't one, that PPD didn't exist in the NPF world.  Welcome to the unreality of PPD!

I can honestly say now that I am over my feelings of failure, and in fact I don't believe I was one.  It took getting off of MDC to get to that point, though.  And were I to be pregnant again I would be faced with the VBAC vs RCS question.  Before I'd gotten over my belief of failure, I would have gone for the RCS again, no question.  Why?  Well, I already knew I was a failure, so why go through the agony I'd gone through before just to have my failure reinforced by the very good chance that I'd have to do a c-section in the end anyway.  Given that there are members who still actively grieve and define themselves by their tainted c-section status for years after they've had them, I'd say I am not the only one who has gone through this.  Sure would be nice if there were a space to discuss both options rationally without all the shaming that goes to those who choose the RCS reason, no matter the reason.

[alittlesandy]

I have to say, I LOVE the name "Birthing after a C-Section" for a forum! YES!!!!! It encompasses the whole discussion, which is so important. I DO want a VBAC, and want to discuss the pros and cons of that option, while still being able to have a safe place to discuss the pros and cons of RCS if that's what I end up facing. A forum called "Birthing after a C-Section" would support mamas who seek VBAC, HBAC, UC, or RCS.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by rutabega 

It seems to me that the VBAC forum could be renamed as Birthing After a C-Section, or just BAC.  I think it is awesome that there is a dedicated space for women who have had a c-section have a place to talk about the many advantages of trying for a VBAC, and just some of the other issues that may come up when deciding if that is truly the best route for one's own situation.  But that's just it, isn't it?  It leaves out that having a VBAC isn't the best option for all.  I expect that most of those would be because of medical reasons, but some of those would be for mental reasons as well. 

Even though I do not post often, I am not a new person here.  When my son was born in 2002 via C-section, all the information I'd gleaned here before I gave birth and afterward as well told me that I was a Failure as a woman.  No matter that I had done everything else up until that point right.  I was a failure, and like others I could certainly process my failure here, just as long as I always acknowledged that I was a failure.  These feelings probably helped my PPD spiral downwards, and at the time there wasn't a PPD forum here at MDC.  I honestly concluded at the time that since there wasn't one, that PPD didn't exist in the NPF world.  Welcome to the unreality of PPD!

I can honestly say now that I am over my feelings of failure, and in fact I don't believe I was one.  It took getting off of MDC to get to that point, though.  And were I to be pregnant again I would be faced with the VBAC vs RCS question.  Before I'd gotten over my belief of failure, I would have gone for the RCS again, no question.  Why?  Well, I already knew I was a failure, so why go through the agony I'd gone through before just to have my failure reinforced by the very good chance that I'd have to do a c-section in the end anyway.  Given that there are members who still actively grieve and define themselves by their tainted c-section status for years after they've had them, I'd say I am not the only one who has gone through this.  Sure would be nice if there were a space to discuss both options rationally without all the shaming that goes to those who choose the RCS reason, no matter the reason.

Why both in the same place? Is there any particular reason for that? I, personally, would have been much worse off if MDC had been full of a bunch of "pros" of c-sections when I came here. I was 12 years out from my primary c-section, and two years out from my second one...and, with one exception, I'd never had a single person respond to my feelings of failure with anything but dismissals...which made my PPD much, much worse.  And, to the extent that anyone made me feel like a failure (it was 99.9% about me, not about anyone else), it was the "c-sections are great" brigade, who kept talking about how wonderful they are. Not only was I unable to give birth to my own baby, but I was also unable to enjoy any of these "benefits" everyone talked about....avoiding the pain, preserving my sex life, etc.

Oh, well - MDC can do whatever they want. I'm never going to have to face another c-section again, so it's more-or-less academic to me now. I mostly only post in B&B when a particular thread catches my eye, or when someone is asking for practical recovery advice...although my recoveries seem to be somewhat atypical (hated granny panties, never had success with football hold, only had the traveling gas pain in my last one  - stuff like that), so I'm not sure how helpful any of my advice is, anyway.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by hildare 

seriously.. i think sometimes you disagree to just disagree.

I skimmed this at first, and completely misread it.

You can think what you want. I'm not trying to be contrary, although you're not the first to accuse me of it. I simply don't generally understand the way people think, and the more they explain it, the more confused I get (with some exceptions - there are wonderful moments of clarity, which are nice, and probably why I continue to get sucked into the discussions). The "c-birth" thing is one of the ones that I really want to understand, but the more people explain it, the more confused I get. I really do think it boils down to the fact that I, personally, find c-sections to be so inherently and innately degrading, disempowering and...grotesque, that attempting to phrase it in empowering terms is simply confusing. It simply can't be done, because the experience is inherently disempowering. Over the years, I've grasped - and it took some effort - that a lot of women really don't feel that way, but I still can't make the mental and emotional jump.

[alittlesandy]

Originally Posted by Storm Bride 

Why both in the same place? Is there any particular reason for that? I, personally, would have been much worse off if MDC had been full of a bunch of "pros" of c-sections when I came here. I was 12 years out from my primary c-section, and two years out from my second one...and, with one exception, I'd never had a single person respond to my feelings of failure with anything but dismissals...which made my PPD much, much worse.  And, to the extent that anyone made me feel like a failure (it was 99.9% about me, not about anyone else), it was the "c-sections are great" brigade, who kept talking about how wonderful they are. Not only was I unable to give birth to my own baby, but I was also unable to enjoy any of these "benefits" everyone talked about....avoiding the pain, preserving my sex life, etc.

Oh, well - MDC can do whatever they want. I'm never going to have to face another c-section again, so it's more-or-less academic to me now. I mostly only post in B&B when a particular thread catches my eye, or when someone is asking for practical recovery advice...although my recoveries seem to be somewhat atypical (hated granny panties, never had success with football hold, only had the traveling gas pain in my last one  - stuff like that), so I'm not sure how helpful any of my advice is, anyway.

Both in the same place because those are our options. It's a nice idea to say you're never going to face another c-section again, but for some of us that's not a choice. It has nothing to do with people being "pro" c-section. Nobody here is pro c-section! This discussion is not going to send people running for c-sections for crying out loud!

Why should I have to jump around to multiple forums and threads to discuss the possibility of a VBAC versus my really sucky lack of choices for such which may lead me to an RCS. They are not separate discussions.
 

[rutabega]

Originally Posted by Storm Bride 

Why both in the same place? Is there any particular reason for that? I, personally, would have been much worse off if MDC had been full of a bunch of "pros" of c-sections when I came here. I was 12 years out from my primary c-section, and two years out from my second one...and, with one exception, I'd never had a single person respond to my feelings of failure with anything but dismissals...which made my PPD much, much worse.  And, to the extent that anyone made me feel like a failure (it was 99.9% about me, not about anyone else), it was the "c-sections are great" brigade, who kept talking about how wonderful they are. Not only was I unable to give birth to my own baby, but I was also unable to enjoy any of these "benefits" everyone talked about....avoiding the pain, preserving my sex life, etc.

Oh, well - MDC can do whatever they want. I'm never going to have to face another c-section again, so it's more-or-less academic to me now. I mostly only post in B&B when a particular thread catches my eye, or when someone is asking for practical recovery advice...although my recoveries seem to be somewhat atypical (hated granny panties, never had success with football hold, only had the traveling gas pain in my last one  - stuff like that), so I'm not sure how helpful any of my advice is, anyway.

They should be in the same place because your experience isn't the experience of most, I'd hazard to guess.  I am truly, truly sorry that you had to endure surgery and felt robbed of what you wanted most with regard to birth.  Please believe me when I say this with the utmost concern:  your birth choices do not make you a bad mother, and I think that by continuing to read the pregnancy and birth threads is serving to reinforce your anger and sadness at what you went through.   I know that your experience could be a valuable anecdote to others, but when you are risking a surprise punch in the gut any time you open an otherwise innocent looking thread, I think that in this case you should look to preserving your own health and choose to just not click.  :hug:

[greenmulberry]

Originally Posted by Storm Bride 

Fair enough. I'll just stay away from the forum, if it's called that. Every time I see 'c-birth", it's like being hit in the gut. I didn't "have a baby", either. I already had the baby. It was inside me, and then it was cut out of me.

Sorry. I try to respect everyone's reality on this - it just seems like saying "I gave birth to a tumour", or "I gave birth to my appendix". I don't know why there's been this big push to play down the fact that it's surgery.

I think this is exactly why there needs to be a safe place to talk about c sections.

To have someone compare the birth of a child to the removal of a tumor is so hurtful. What a mean thing to say.

[Drummer's Wife]

I love the idea of naming the board Birthing after a Cesarean or similar.  Anyone who thinks a VBAC and RCS are mutually exclusive is not really thinking it through.  I mean, really - who are the majority of people reading here on the VBAC forum?  They are mothers who are exploring their options of how to have a successful VBAC.  There are not as many mothers here who have already had their desired VBAC, at least, if they are, it is to offer support not find it.  So, for all those like myself who have had failed VBAC attempts (I ended up with 4 c-sections, BTW), a board that welcomes both moms who are lucky enough to vbac or vba2c or vba3c or whatever, as well as those who ended up with yet another c-section, is needed!.  They really do go together, people.

No one is saying we want to start threads or forums saying lets all have elective repeat c-sections!  And of course, ERCS is different than a RCS, despite what you medical chart might indicate.  It has to be understood that a lot of women don't even have a choice in the matter, besides UC'ing after several c-sections, which, sorry, is more dangerous than having a RCS.  Yet, there is a UC board and no one is told to shut up if they are attempting a UCA4C. 

Mothers need support.  Anyone who thinks there isn't a place for that on a board called Mothering is just not a very supportive person.  The whole NCB agenda is certainly not more important than real mothers who have already had non-natural births, or may be facing them in the future. 

[Drummer's Wife]

oh, and Storm Bride.  I understand that you feel strongly about your babies not being born or you not giving birth, which technically you did not "give birth"; however, you have to understand that while it offends you to hear people say they had a c-birth or surgical birth, it also offends many of us to hear that we shouldn't be able to talk about our babies coming into the world as their birth. 

[CI Mama]

Originally Posted by alittlesandy 

I have to say, I LOVE the name "Birthing after a C-Section" for a forum! YES!!!!! It encompasses the whole discussion, which is so important. I DO want a VBAC, and want to discuss the pros and cons of that option, while still being able to have a safe place to discuss the pros and cons of RCS if that's what I end up facing. A forum called "Birthing after a C-Section" would support mamas who seek VBAC, HBAC, UC, or RCS.

Mostly lurking on this thread, but just want to add...

As a mama who had 1 birth by c-section (unplanned & traumatic), and who was never planning to birth again no matter how it went, I would be thrilled to find a c-section group where women can freely share their real experiences with c-section, the good, the bad, the ugly, the whole mix. There are some of us who feel only one way about our c-section(s), but many of us have a variety of complex responses to our c-section experiences and those responses can and do change over time. A forum where all of those responses could be shared and processed, in the support of other moms who share the "natural" framework for parenting and who BTDT, would be awesome.

When it comes to this stuff, I'm pretty much a radical supporter of women telling their own truth, in an environment where that is understood and supported. It does require each of us to realize that our own experiences cannot and do not necessarily translate to others; we can only speak for ourselves and listen to others. But I have found it immeasurably healing to hear the wide variety of experiences that women have with c-section (with birth in general, actually) and to realize that I can make room in myself for all my noisy, contradictory, and jumbled up feelings about my own experience.

[Bokonon]

Originally Posted by greenmulberry 

I think this is exactly why there needs to be a safe place to talk about c sections.

To have someone compare the birth of a child to the removal of a tumor is so hurtful. What a mean thing to say.

I agree.  I can't imagine thinking of my children or the days of their births that way.  They were born.  That happens only through birth.  I loathe the idea that someone else thinks I am less of a mother because my children were born through c-section, because that's not how I feel.

[FrugalGranolaMom]

Originally Posted by hildare 

I am, quite frankly, very sick and tired of the assumption that it is NOT OK to discuss that RCS is indeed a GOOD option for some mamas. 
There are lots of medical reasons that make it necessary in some cases, and in others a necessity because of concerns over risk. 

It grieves me to come to a forum on mdc and time and time again be shamed or have choices looked at as "lesser" in this way.  It's pretty offensive, and it's not just you, dlm, though you are employing this technique here and now. 

I'm tired of not having a place in the natural parenting/ mothering community because of a c-birth.  I am fine with having had one, i feel as though i made a great choice based upon my awareness of risk at the time, and am currently researching all i can to decide whether to attempt a vbac or have an rcs.  if i DO choose to have a rcs, it will indeed be a GREAT choice because it will be what i, a natural minded mdc mama chose to do. 

although, you're entirely correct about asking for a c-BIRTH forum, and i am actually going to do that right now.  thank you for the idea.  however, at this point in time, the vbac forum remains a place where i think many of us can share information about c-birthing.  vbacs only happen for around 80% of women who attempt them.  what about the other 20 percent? 

This is exactly how I feel. I came to MDC just after my DS was born via c-birth (thanks Hildare, I'm totally using this term from now on). Although I found a lot a great information and support for other areas of my parenting and lifestyle, I always felt that just because of how my son was born I would never really fit in here with the "cool kids". It would have been great to feel that it was ok for me to freely discuss what my experience was like with other mams that have been through it.

Originally Posted by Drummer's Wife 

oh, and Storm Bride.  I understand that you feel strongly about your babies not being born or you not giving birth, which technically you did not "give birth"; however, you have to understand that while it offends you to hear people say they had a c-birth or surgical birth, it also offends many of us to hear that we shouldn't be able to talk about our babies coming into the world as their birth. 

Yes, yes, yes! Every year we celebrate my son's birthday, not his surgery day.
 

[Bokonon]

Originally Posted by Storm Bride 


 I really do think it boils down to the fact that I, personally, find c-sections to be so inherently and innately degrading, disempowering and...grotesque, that attempting to phrase it in empowering terms is simply confusing. It simply can't be done, because the experience is inherently disempowering. Over the years, I've grasped - and it took some effort - that a lot of women really don't feel that way, but I still can't make the mental and emotional jump.

Not everyone needs birth to be "empowering".  Feeling empowered was the last thing on my mind when my babies were born.  Requiring empowerment through birth seems fairly selfish to me, as I think many of us can agree that the priority is one specific outcome.  I am a mother.  That's powerful in itself.  

I'm also not sure how a medically necessary procedure could ever be considered degrading.

[AdinaL]

Hi ladies.  I'm not sure this is the place for this thread, as others have suggested.  I am going to close it until I can get some input on where this might be better hosted.