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At what age would you allow your child to try alcohol? - Page 4

post #61 of 90

I grew up Catholic.  I am also in Canada.  From the time of first communion onward (age 7) we were permitted to dip the host in the wine if we liked.  I rarely did.  Dh (also Catholic) reports no one dipped it in the wine - only the priest drank it.  

post #62 of 90

Here's a link to a state-by-state guide on underage alcohol consumption laws and exceptions (which also include religious exceptions).

 

http://drinkingage.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=002591

 

This is only for the U.S.  I'm sure that laws vary country to country as they do state to state here.

 

 


Edited by CatsCradle - 9/21/11 at 7:15am
post #63 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smithie View Post

I can imagine the Catholics not pitching a total hissy if their children weren't allowed to take Communion beacuse of drinking age laws. But then, I'm not a Catholic. Any Catholics know the scoop on this one? :allears

 

(Plural marriage is not illegal, BTW. It's a constitutionally protected right of association. Registering civil marriages with more than one spouse at one time is illegal.)


I live in a state where minors can only consume alcohol for educational purposes -- not for religious etc. but I am Catholic & kids do partake in the wine here. Most kids don't (I assume just because they don't like the taste?) but some do & it's never been an issue. Plus, kids with celiac may only be able to take the Eucharist under the form of wine since they can't have the bread. I have no idea if it's technically illegal or not (sounds like it is but it's not enforced?) but it certainly would infringe on our religious freedom/rights if it were enforced.

As far as the OP, I have no problem with kids of any age (even a year old) having very very small sips of alcohol, and also no problem with small glasses of wine with dinner if it's for health reasons or cultural custom. I do feel it's inappropriate for minors to consume large amounts, hard liquor (aside from a sip or two), get drunk or even a bit tipsy, etc. I also don't agree with mixing meds with alcohol (so if the kid was on ADHD meds, that seems dangerous to me)... But I feel like the legal drinking age should be much lower and that our society's attitude toward alcohol could use some help!
post #64 of 90

The research that I've read has always made a distinction between underage drinking associated with a religious ritual (Communion, Seder, etc.) and  underage drinking with peers. Kids who taste wine with communion are no more likely than kids who don't drink at all at a young age to become alcoholics. The kids who are at risk are the kids like this 12 year old who is drinking 'for pleasure' at well under age.

post #65 of 90

Originally Posted by CatsCradle View Post
 

Here's a link to a state-by-state guide on underage alcohol consumption laws and exceptions (which also include religious exceptions).

 

http://drinkingage.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=002591

 

This is only for the U.S. I'm sure that laws vary country to country as they do state to state here.

 

 



Thanks!  That is super interesting.  I was shocked to see 7 states allow underage consumptions WITHOUT parental permission.  Isn't that basically legal underage drinking?

 

I think it's great that three states have explicit laws that you will not get in trouble trying to get a minor medical help for drinking even if you, yourself (a minor) have been drinking.

 

 

post #66 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smithie View Post

I can imagine the Catholics not pitching a total hissy if their children weren't allowed to take Communion beacuse of drinking age laws. But then, I'm not a Catholic. Any Catholics know the scoop on this one? :allears

 

(Plural marriage is not illegal, BTW. It's a constitutionally protected right of association. Registering civil marriages with more than one spouse at one time is illegal.)

 

So....the law does not recognize plural marriage. You cannot be legally married to more than one person. Same thing as saying plural marriage is illegal, IMO.

 

I live in a state with a large Catholic population. I'm sure law enforcers simply look the other way with regards to Communion. Many of them are probably Catholic, themselves, and I'm sure most kids aren't chugging the wine during services.
 

 

post #67 of 90
I wonder what the definition is of alcohol consumption (legally, I mean).

Catholic communion is generally just a small sip of wine.

I imagine many parents allow young children sips of alcoholic beverages.

Logically, it seems those things should be OK -- just like a pregnant woman having a sip of champagne during a toast certainly isn't going to harm her baby, even though the general 'rule' is to completely avoid drinking during pregnancy.

I can't imagine a judge condemning someone for allowing their child to have a small sip of something in their own home, but certainly allowing them an entire drink (or more) might be seen in a different light.
post #68 of 90

WRT communion: Catholic churches would require the drink to be wine (wine blessed by a priest, I believe, not just any wine); not grape juice. Because they hold to transubstantiation, I guess it's considered more important that the bread and wine be "proper" bread and wine? I remember there was a furore a while back over whether the bread (wafers) had to contain gluten or not; it was decided that it did. So celiacs just drink the wine.

 

I go to a Reformed Baptist church, at which we have grape juice and gluten-free bread. The GF bread is just because we have a few celiacs in the congregation, and is probably about as dissimilar to the unleavened bread mentioned in the New Testament as Catholic wafers (ie. pretty darned dissimilar). The grape juice - in fact, I don't think it's even grape juice, I think it's Ribena! - is apparently because of the possibility of having recovering alcoholics in the congregation. Personally I'd rather have wine, because it is wine in the Bible; and I've been to a church which served both, so alcoholics or whoever didn't want wine could take grape juice instead, which seems like a better method to me. On the other hand, we don't believe in transubstantiation - we believe the bread and wine simply symbolise the body and blood of Christ; which being the case, it doesn't matter so much what the symbols are. I guess you could say that the Ribena symbolises the wine, which symbolises Christ? :p Also, I must admit, I don't like wine...

 

I'd be pretty irritated if laws didn't allow us to have wine, though. I highly doubt impressionable kids are going to flock to church in order to get roaring drunk on a tablespoonful of wine in a Communion cup, you know? And there's no evidence I know of that suggests that a tablespoonful of wine does any harm to children (not that we routinely do paedocommunion in our church anyway, so it wouldn't be much of an issue; I think a few older kids partake, but no little ones). So what would be the problem, exactly?

post #69 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smokering View Post
 I highly doubt impressionable kids are going to flock to church in order to get roaring drunk on a tablespoonful of wine in a Communion cup, you know?

lol.gif This raised images for me of someone coming around the communion line many times just to get roaring drunk. The real danger with Catholic communion is that the priest has to drink any remaining wine. While it's watered down, there's more than one priest who's had problems with alcohol because of it.

 

I attend a Lutheran church now, and they pay lip service to transubstantiation. We do give communion to children as soon as their parents think they're ready. Some kids are as young as 2-3, some wait until they're 12-13. My kids started at 5-6, when I felt they could understand the basic significance. We offer both wine and grape juice. Kids are free to choose which one they want. Most kids choose grape juice because the wine isn't all that good (cheap, cheap, cheap). Some kids do wine. Some teenagers do wine. Some adults do grape juice. (And we have gluten free wafers for those that request it.) And we pour the remaining wine into the ground, which I guess is considered to be OK. I've never delved into the theology.

 

But, religious sips of wine are not the same as offering wine at a party. It's combined with the religious ritual and nearly everyone sees it as separate.
 

 

post #70 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2xy View Post

 

So....the law does not recognize plural marriage. You cannot be legally married to more than one person. Same thing as saying plural marriage is illegal, IMO.

 


No, those two things aren't saying the same thing. As far as I know, the law does not recognize me sitting at this computer right now, but that doesn't mean it's illegal. It's just that there aren't any laws about where I am or am not allowed to sit in my house.

 

I can't think of any instance where a "spiritual" marriage is illegal (unless it involves sex with a minor or something). Even same-sex couples can have them. They're just not "official" in the eyes of the government, because the government only cares about civil marriages.

post #71 of 90


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyllya View Post


I can't think of any instance where a "spiritual" marriage is illegal (unless it involves sex with a minor or something). Even same-sex couples can have them. They're just not "official" in the eyes of the government, because the government only cares about civil marriages.


I never said a spiritual marriage is illegal. But a marriage done in a church that isn't processed by civil authorities is not recognized as a legally binding marriage according to the laws of the state. Attempting to be civilly married to more than one person is illegal in every state.

 

When I said that plural marriage is illegal, I was referring to civil marriages, which should be apparent by now and I'm so so sooooo sorry I didn't specify that to begin with. It didn't occur to me that anyone would pick it apart. I happen to not know anyone who claims marital status who is not married in a civil sense....including same-sex couples.

 

post #72 of 90

We're Eastern Orthodox, and my kids have received Communion (yes, with wine) from the time thye were baptized (~3 mos). And no - the State cannot prohibit the use of alcohol in religious ceremonies. Separation of Church and State for $500, anyone?

post #73 of 90
I think it's pretty cool so many people have such and open view on alcohol, this thread has really made me look at the reasons alcohol and the thought of openly allowing my kids to try it bothers me so much.

DH and I both came from families who literally consumed alcohol from the sun up to sun down. And it bothers us both. I can drink periodically but DH refuses. And when I do drink I don't do it around my kids. And I'm not even sure why I choose to do it. I wish I could view it differently, I just have a hard time doing so.
post #74 of 90

does anyone know if they have actually found an 'alcoholic' gene? or was it just conjecture?

 

we came from a no big deal social alcohol family. i never drink and my bro was only a social drinker. 

post #75 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by meemee View Post

does anyone know if they have actually found an 'alcoholic' gene? or was it just conjecture?

 

we came from a no big deal social alcohol family. i never drink and my bro was only a social drinker. 


I believe there are several genes that can cause a predisposition towards addiction, although I don't remember the names of the particular genes. I had my DNA tested this past summer, and came back positive for a few of the genes that do cause predisposition. I believe I had two alleles for most, as well. My father is a recovered alcoholic, as is his father. My mother's father was an alcoholic and only stopped when he was in a convalescent home with cirrhosis of the liver. My husband also inherited the genes. We drink occasionally at weddings, etc., but we don't normally keep alcohol in the house. I don't think I'd offer up alcohol until our children are of legal age and understand their family history.
post #76 of 90
Maybe if they asked me about it. We do have some in the house but, it's pretty rare and when we do it's dark beer. DD1 is already uncomfortable around it because of my dad, he came two years ago. He drank our cooking wine because I had asked him not to drink while the kids were up. He thought he was being sneaky. Then two bottles in he was a total ass. It's his liquid courage apparently. He started bad mouthing DH and calling him all sorts of rotten things. He even bad mouthed his Moms and that was when DH pretty much stopped talking to my dad altogether. They used to be friends. Either way DD1 was old enough to ask questions and I told her pops drank some alcohol. I didnt realize it would leave such and impression on her. She was very uncomfortable and still is about it.
post #77 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by meemee View Post

does anyone know if they have actually found an 'alcoholic' gene? or was it just conjecture?

 

we came from a no big deal social alcohol family. i never drink and my bro was only a social drinker. 


I think it's much easier to be a "no big deal social alcohol" family when their aren't a bunch of drunks in the extended family. redface.gif

 

May be it's not the relaxed attitude that helps teens moderate actions with alcohol, but rather it's the lack of addictive genes in the family that allow the parents to be relaxed. 

 

May be I've had cause and effort backwards up til now. 

 

post #78 of 90

Imakcerka- my kids, especially the teenagers, do not like being around my father and brother, because of their drinking/behavior. My 8 year old hasn't felt uncomfortable yet, but my older ones have been refusing to go with my dad alone since about age 10 or so. Hell, I am uncomfortable around him. Not that he really cares to spend time with us, anyway, since we don't drink all the time. He spends lots of time with my alcoholic brother though! And growing up, he did not allow us around his side of the family because they were alcoholics...it's come full-circle and it's not funny. My dad and I are alot alike and would get along very well if it weren't for this. My daughter would not even invite him to her Sweet 16 (not a sweet 16 like on MTV but a home cook-out with everyone else she knows invited), no one wants him at their sports games or anything.

 

I DO UNDERSTAND how you feel on this! It took me so long to come around and realize that *some* drinking is ok and won't corrupt the kids and/or turn us into alcoholics. I can see the damage it can do, and I can see how it's ok to drink some. When people USE it, that's when I see it as a problem. If you have to have it to relax, that's a problem, imo.(like smoking, or pills, or eating...) And when you HAVE to have one upon waking up in the mornings and that's your main beverage all day, yeah that makes you an alcoholic, no matter what you say or think. When you have blood pressure and blood sugar problems, and are always drinking beer instead of eating, yeah you're an alcoholic, no matter what you say or think. When you can't afford to take your dog to the vet when a puppy is stuck halfway out of her, but you can afford your 24-pack of beer *everyday*, you have a problem.(and he called ME to come help with this poor dog...none of them made it and it scarred me for life). It's very scary!! And for years, it seemed so easy to become an alcoholic...but I have learned otherwise. We've had a bonfire out back and had friends and certain family over and drank and had fun. No one drove drunk afterwards, some spent the night, some had headaches the next morning.

 

It's funny that the only people who pressure others to drink are alcoholics...I've never been teased about not drinking(or not drinking enough) by anyone except people who can't live without drinking everyday.

post #79 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtiger View Post

We're Eastern Orthodox, and my kids have received Communion (yes, with wine) from the time thye were baptized (~3 mos). And no - the State cannot prohibit the use of alcohol in religious ceremonies. Separation of Church and State for $500, anyone?


Well, some states do prohibit providing alcohol to minors in religious ceremonies, while most do not.  I do think it is a little more complex than simply a separation of church and state issue because I think the main issue is that alcohol use/sale/prohibition is part of most states' criminal codes because it is considered a controlled substance.  I believe that individual states can determine exceptions or they can decide whether or a law should be applied and enforced equally across the board for everyone.  Even in those states, however, that prohibit use for minors in religious ceremonies, I doubt that prohibition is actively enforced. 

 

Semi-off-topic, I keep thinking of the famous peyote case that went before the Supreme Court in which the Supreme Court held that the free exercise clause did not prohibit the state of Oregon from prohibiting sacremental use of peyote in native american religious ceremonies.  Mountains of scholarly articles, etc. have been written on this because the court abandoned the long utilized governmental interest test and instead focused on the the idea that facially neutral laws having general application to the whole population did not burden free exercise of religion (sorry, it's been a long time since I read the case).  Essentially, though, the court left it up to the states to decide, and most states have decided that otherwise illegal consumption of certain substances is permissible in a religious setting. 

 

post #80 of 90

I really don't know.Exh is an alcoholic,and is in a horrible state at the moment,homeless,collecting cans to return in the next state for his vodka,who knows what else he is doing.Very sad.My dc know what their father does,and they know that I very rarely drink,I don't keep it in the house,I might have a mixed drink at a party or something,but I don't get drunk.I just don't like it.They also know their step grandfather is a recovering alcoholic,and his liver is failing because of it. :( I grew up watching my dad's side of the family get drunk every day,and holidays they would litteraly be falling down,and some would drive home!I would hide with my cousins or downstairs at my grandmother's.So there is a big chance that my dc could get addicted,since it runs on their dad's side,as well as my dad's side.

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