Christian godess?

[boysrus]

Ok, here I go!!(the first christian posting on this board. whee.

I am really sruggling with Christianity. I was raised Christian and have a love for Jesus. However, we(dh and I) are deliving into the hypocrisies and atrocities of the religion. His dad has spent quite a bit of time studying the Cathars, the Templar and the Crusades and has bred a healthy cyncicsm into my dh. We have been discovering the creation of the nicean creed. We ahve bee reading Spong, and now I am reading the DaVinci Code.

At the same time, I an struggling with the fact that I dont recevie joy or blessing from the typical Christian service. I do not find God there. I find God in the fields, the meadows, the ocean, my sleeping children. I also think the goddess has been squashed out of the church, and a lot of turmoil has come from it.

So, if there ever was a perfectly balanced christian church, what did it look like? If the bible is not what Jesus was trying to teach, what was he trying to teach? And how do we live that message today?

[tracymom]

I too have been struggling with this. I read a book called "Reincarnation: The Missing Link in Christianity" and it really touched me. Strangely enough I actually found more joy in our religious services after reading that. It's like I'm learning to synthesize the outer trappings with my inner feelings.

I suppose some would say that makes me a hypocrite. Standing up and singing with the choir all these words and reciting the Apostles' Creed and all that.

But I think for myself anyway I've decided that it's okay, that even if I don't believe every doggone word of it (and I don't, but that's a whole 'nother discussion) that I still find meaning in it and personal joy. I also receive personal joy from camping, hiking, and savoring all those small moments that the Creator has blessed us with and just being out there in it.

It was funny because when I went to beliefnet.com and took the test I ended up as 100% compatible with Buddhist! :LOL
I enjoyed telling that to my church friends. :LOL The ones who knew me best just grinned, the others looked puzzled, like they thought I was going to leave and go to the nearest temple and quit coming. They can't get rid of me THAT easily. I need to stay and be as disruptive as possible.

[AdinaL]

This is totally random - and a fiction book - but read Narcissus and Goldmund - by Herman Hesse. It is a well written book, and touches on some of the issues that you brought up. I really enjoyed it. You might find it has no bearing at all on what you are going through, but I though I would throw that out there!

[boysrus]

dh is thinking about just not saying the creed. He is very bothered by parts of it.

Why does the Christian faith have such a problem emracing the pagan parts of our religion? Why is pagan considered so evil? I know a lot of people are embracing the Jewish customs, so why not the pagan ones?

How would a Christian goddess worship ceremony look?

[steph]

In regards to the goddess in the church - I was raised Catholic, went to Catholic school Every year on May 1 (Beltane if your pagan), we did a whole ritual outside crownig Mary "Queen of the May" with garlands of flowers and special songs. It was really quite beautiful and my favorite celebration of the year. I think some sections of the Catholic church have tried to keep Mary as close to a Goddess as they can, without being considered heretical. On a similar note, you may want to check out Mathew Fox's writtings. He was a Catholic priest who was brought under the office of the Inquisition for his teachings. He believes in Original Blessing rather than Original Sin, for example. He has now been accepted as an Episcopal priest. I think he's the closest contemporary to synthesize Christianity and a more Earth based approach to spirituality.

[boysrus]

steph. that is true. I was raised catholic. M mother is a very deout catholic and is a very marian catholic. I am bothered by the eternal virgin status though. I am intrigued by the idea that magdalene was the goddess and the church was so horrified by the idea of Jesus being married(thanks augustine!) that they elevated mary, mother and lowered mary, wife.

Adina, I put the bok on hold at the library. What is it about? Tracymom, my library didnt have the other book.

[AdinaL]

It is about two men - Narcissus and Goldmund - and their very different approaches to G-d and struggles with that. There is some heavy mother/goddess imagery in it, which I loved. I need to go back and read it - it has been years!! I think someone borrowed my copy and never gave it back.

[DaryLLL]

Before Mary Virgin was elevated by the Catholic Church (as she has a very small role in the gospel narratives actually) the gnostics had a Christian goddess. I am talking 1st and 2nd century CE. Her name is Sophia and she is Jesus' consort. Mary Magdalen is her earthly avatar.

Read about her in The Jesus Myteries and Jesus and the Lost Goddess both by Freke and Gandy.

[tracymom]

Tracymom, my library didnt have the other book

I happened to find it in a used bookstore. I dunno where it came from originally. It's pretty far out of the mainstream.

Basically it boils down to the author believing that Jesus taught reincarnation, and that it's not incompatible with the idea of Jesus as "savior," but in the sense that he came to show us the way to the kingdom. She uses as evidence some of the Nag Hammadi texts, particularly the Gospel of Thomas, which of course contain a great deal of cryptic and mystic sayings attributed to Jesus. She makes a very good case.

I think the thing that made the most impression on me was her contention that the Kingdom is here, always available, and that Jesus as a practicing mystic taught his followers how to enter that sort of trance state where one enters a heavenly place. It's her opinion that once you have attained that state of sort of oneness with God, THAT is the kingdom and you may practice keeping a portion of your mind there all the time, and thus experience the kingdom all around.

I believe the book is unfortunately titled because it covers a whole lot more than just the idea of reincarnation but more Jesus as mystic.

Anyway, that's the 250-word school book report version, and not a very good report at that.....

[tracymom]

dh is thinking about just not saying the creed. He is very bothered by parts of it.

Yeah, I kind of went through that too when I initially found out where and how the creed was created. Artificial is the adjective that I think of.

But as I became more peaceful and at home with my own evolving belief system, it didn't so much matter anymore that I was repeating the creed nearly every week and not believing it. I'm not really sure why. It's somehow only some words and the fact that I'm repeating them with 200 other people at the same time sort of makes them powerful, not in their meaning itself, but in the sort of purposeful oneness that seems to move across the congregation while it's being said. It's hard for me to express it, but it just ceased to bother me. It's like a nonissue at this point. I don't feel like a hypocrite or a liar - it's just like it's no longer important, or at least the words aren't. I can't really explain that. Every time I do, it sounds like a cop-out but it really doesn't feel that way. Sigh. I give up, it's not getting any better....

[irishgreengables]

Interestingly, I am filling my journal with similar thoughts and conflicts at this point in time...and that is not an easy thing for a pastor to be doing (former pastor really...SAHM now). I have always been very liberal, particularly for a Lutheran pastor, but I find myself going beyond liberal in terms of just plain rejecting certain tenants of what we know as the Christian faith and also embracing certain tenants of other religions. I struggle tremendously with the decidedly Western MALE version of the incarnation in Christianity and am appalled at how evangelism (which is nothing more than cololnialism in a modern context) has taken shape in contemporary Christianity. I am also repulsed by the lack of emphasis on justice and peace issues within the Christian church (which I consider to be the crux of Jesus' ministry). So, for me, it is not so much "CHristianity" that causes my struggles...it is the way Christianity is celebrated and it is all that has been squeezed out of Christianity by the patriarchs of the church.

Finally, how do I reconcile the exclusivity of the Christian church with the heritage of my children, who were born in Haiti, where vodoun, in its very ancient, African form is practiced by 100% of the population (even all those with "Christian" attached to their identities)?

I too wonder how my perfect Christian church would look.

Peace,

[DaryLLL]

Originally posted by Nursing Mother
The Jews and Christian's believe in the worship of only one God as made clear in the Scriptures. Paganism believes in many gods and godesses.

That is quite a generalization.

[pammysue]

Originally posted by Nursing Mother
(Could put references down, but am short of time).

The basics:

John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Exodus 20:
2 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
3 "You shall have no other gods before me.
4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments.

both NIV.

[irishgreengables]

Originally posted by Nursing Mother


But it is forbidden in the Scriptures to do so. (Could put references down, but am short of time).

Now this would be part of the issue I have with modern day evangelism. It feels like we are being told (in subtext, of course) that we should not be debating/considering/struggling with the issues mentioned in this thread. This does not seem like the place to be offering up the quoted information...(nor the quoted scripture below that post). It is akin (to me) to telling a chubby person that they need to lose weight. The chubby person knows and does not need to be told. It merely fulfills the needs of the person telling the chubby one to lose weight. It is not helpful. I am guessing that the OP knows all about what the Christian church allows and forbids and what scripture says. I certainly do not need reminders of this after 4 years at a Chirsitan university, a 4 year masters degree in divinity, and 3 years serving a call in a parish (I hope that doesn't sound pompous...that is not my point...I am trying to demonstrate that the people posting with these struggles are not new to Christianity and do not need to be evangelized). The OP was asking how a perfectly balanced Christian church would look...one that fits more closely with what she is believing. It is clear to me that her struggles are being thoroughly considered, as are those of all the posters. Perhaps for those who are not struggling with similar issues, another thread or simple silence might be more appropriate. We know we are "chubby". No one needs to tell us.

[boysrus]

Thank you irishgreengables.
I am extremely offended by the idea that conservative christians have exclusive right to the title Christian.
I happen to believe that a lot of the bible is written for purely political reasons and alot of the bible was left out for political reasons.
But, NM, such a big chunk of today's Christianity comes straight from paganism!! So, why do we celebrate as pagans do, and then turn around and scorn them?
IGG, I agree 100% with everything you say!! Hurray up and start your own church so I can attend, ok??

[DaryLLL]

Re: Christian godess?

Originally posted by boysrus

So, if there ever was a perfectly balanced christian church, what did it look like? If the bible is not what Jesus was trying to teach, what was he trying to teach? And how do we live that message today?

No, there never was a perfectly balanced Xtian church. As humans are not perfect. We try to be kind, and we often are. But we are also egotistical and selfish.

Now, we need to have a certain degree of selfishness just to survive. But as "Paul" says in some of his letters, when we seek to be spiritual (pneumatic), not fleshly (sarkic) we are in the Kingdom. Here on earth, here and now. Then we are awake and alive.

When we are in the spirit, we will find the barriers between one human and another dissolve. The barriers between us and our environment, which are illusory, also dissolve and we are complelled try to live in harmony with our environment, not pollute, tread lightly etc.

As far as a more balanced Xtian church, you are on the right track. My path too. Gnosticism. We must embrace the divine feminine to survive as a species. The Cathars tried and were destroyed. Hopefully this time around, the movement can grow unimpeded.

Have you read Starbird as well?

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/se...302593-0833559

As far as your question, is the Bible what Jesus was trying to teach...well, you make assumptions. First of all, you assume there was a HJ (historical Jesus). That the Xtian Church was begun with a big bang, Jesus' life and mission. Some scholars see evidence that the Jesus movement was created in fits and starts from pagansim and Judaism (Tanakh midrash) and neo-Platonism, and see scanty evidence for a HJ.

Read Robt Price's new book, The Incredible Shrinking Son of Man.

[barbara]

Perhaps this is not keeping in context of the discussion here, but I have always thought of the the Holy Spirit as the goddess aspect of the one God. In the trinity we have the Father (male), the Holy Spirit (female) and the son (child) also being in earthly/human form.

[DaryLLL]

Originally posted by Nursing Mother

True, some of our celebrations symbolism and imagery was taken from Paganism (celebrations and such) Doesn't mean the message of Christianity is the same as Paganism though...... (Remember how many times Jesus said it was all about "heart worship" and not rituals and vain revelry. Christianity and Paganism are like night and day imo.

Verses, please? This is a board for scholarly discussion, not polemics.

Your suggestion that Paganism is nothing but empty ritual and vain revelry is insulting, not to mention false.

[stafl]

Re: Christian godess?

Originally posted by boysrus
So, if there ever was a perfectly balanced christian church, what did it look like? If the bible is not what Jesus was trying to teach, what was he trying to teach? And how do we live that message today?

IMO - You already answered your question:

I find God in the fields, the meadows, the ocean, my sleeping children.

There's your perfect church - in the fields, the meadowns, the ocean, your sleeping children. Why do people look for spiritual guidance in church, anyway? Don't all the wise people of all different faiths throughout the ages tell us to look within for the answers we seek? :

[boysrus]

because this is something very wonderful and powerful about crporate worship. Throughout the ages, people have always gathered together for worship.

barbara, I have been reading aout this idea, and I like it, but still all Christian churches I have found worship a the male God. Or, they say HE is not male nor female. (??)

Darylll, I am reading starbird right now. I read most of the woman with the alabaster jar(but it had to go back to the library and I had to get back in line for it!) I am reading the one about MM and symbols and numbers right now. I read the one about Feminine worship, but it didnt really give me any new worship ideas.

It seems to me that a goddess worship does not belong in a traditional worship setting. The service should be different and more earthy. There is a gnostic church in Seattle, but the services appear very Catholic in flavor, although they do have eucharist that includes the goddess.

nm, I think that Christianity and Paganism are different only because people have ade them that way. I dont think that was Jesus' intention. The early churches were much more in tune with their "pagan" side.