Christian godess? - Page 2

[barbara]

Originally posted by boysrus
nm, I think that Christianity and Paganism are different only because people have ade them that way. I dont think that was Jesus' intention. The early churches were much more in tune with their "pagan" side.

I find this statement interesting, can you elaborate on the thought?

Yes, it does seem that the Christian Church (in the USA anyway) is very adamant that G-d is male, and it seems popular in Christian culture, to be offended by any reference to a feminine side. I'm somewhat baffeled by this, since the Scriptures refer to the maternal nature of G-d so often.

[boysrus]

I think that early Christians would have be in touch with both god and goddess. In the OT, there are many examples of people (Isrealites and others) worshipping the gods and goddesses and prcticing paganism. I dont think this suddenly went away in the early church.

I honestly believe that statements written in the OT and NT dealing with wh we worship were wrtten because thw writers and readers were being oppressed and needed a "hook" If there were lots of religions around and the one you were practicing was putting you in danger, you might not stick to it, right? So, what if its "god" suenly told you you have to stick with it or else you will perish for eternity? So, I think those kinds of statements come from a place of trying to wield power through fear.

I don't know that I have anything concrete to back up these ideas of early Christians worshipping in a more pagan way, but I just feel it. Plus, all of our rituals can be traced back to paganism, including the resurrection and the eucharist. Therefore, it seems that early christians must have blended them.

[DaryLLL]

Originally posted by boysrus

It seems to me that a goddess worship does not belong in a traditional worship setting. The service should be different and more earthy. There is a gnostic church in Seattle, but the services appear very Catholic in flavor, although they do have eucharist that includes the goddess.

I agree (altho I would love to go to a gnostic church out of curiosity). While my dh goes to his UU church every week, I myself am not comfortable with "square worship," ie: a square/rectangular room with pastor and altar up front. I prefer circle worship, ie: a few people sitting in a circle with altar and/or fire in the middle. There may be a leader of the ritual but s/he is not "special", ie: somehow closer to god/dess, than the rest.

I do not seek/create even this often tho, and find just being out in nature to be spiritual, without any traditional ritual.

Asherah of Canaan was worshiped in groves and on hills and the Jerusalem elite found this to be wrong.

The Temple was seen by the priestly caste (who passed down and wrote down the "P" parts of the Tanakh) as the "only" proper place to worship YHWH. Israel, the northern kingdom, being far from Judah/Jerusalem, and from the Temple, was therefore more "pagan" than the south. In fact, Galilee, where Jesus is supposed to be from, was called disparagingly, Galilee of the Gentiles back then.

I think that Christianity and Paganism are different only because people have made them that way. I dont think that was Jesus' intention. The early churches were much more in tune with their "pagan" side. [/B]

This is a bit of a generlization. There were many different proto-Xtian sects back in 1st and 2nd centuries CE, and some were more Jewish, some more neo-Platonic/Hellenistic. Some were apocalyptic, some were schools of philosophy. Some recognized a goddess named Sophia (Marys 1 and 2 as her avatars), some focused on God's Son, the Christ. Some had free love, some were chaste. Some ate meat, some were veg. Some believed you had to be Jewish and follow the Law including circumcision, some did not. Some thought you had to sell everything and become a begging apostle, some had homes and families and incomes. Etc.

[boysrus]

Yes, Daryll you are right. I should have used the word *some*!!
I do intend to go visit that church at some time and I will report back to ya

[asherah]

The sanctuary at my UU church is round.
And there's an altar in the middle with a lit chalice.

[DaryLLL]

Asherah, that is the coolest. I understand all the Templar churches were/are round (with maybe a couch in the middle for the heiros gamos.) Do you also have comfy chairs instead of hard straight backed pews?

What about a choir and organ/keyboard/other instruments? Do you have them? Where do they fit in?

boysrus, I hope you do go to the gnostic church and tell us about it.

I would like to amend a prev statement of mine:

The Temple was seen by the priestly caste (who passed down and wrote down the "P" parts of the Tanakh) as the "only" proper place to worship YHWH. Israel, the northern kingdom, being far from Judah/Jerusalem, and from the Temple, was therefore more "pagan" than the south.

I know there were synagogues in the north kingdom and the diaspora, but do not know when they first began, nor do I know what kind of worship would have been practiced. (dado, where are you? ) Reading from Torah, but of course, no sacrificing. So what counted as "worship" and how would it have been carried out, outside of the Temple and after its destruction? Reading from Torah, a "sermon," prayers? Building of altars was prohibited, I think I have read.

[Meiri]

Darylll, FWIW, the chairs at our UU church are cushioned, and are rearranged as needed for whatever the service will be. Most of the time they're in rows, but not always. They have to be set up every week after the Saturday evening T'ai Chi class. No doubt the Sunday night drumming sessions result in severe rearrangements too.

The piano sits in a front corner. Choir, if they're doing a song, walk up to the front, then go sit down wherever afterwards.

This church started as a fundie type church, then was attempted to used as a daycare center, and then bought by our congregation when the licensing and permits failed... Quite a turn around for the building, eh?

[barbara]

Originally posted by asherah
The sanctuary at my UU church is round.
And there's an altar in the middle with a lit chalice.

That sounds so cool. Our Non-denominational Christian church is also built in the round with beautiful stained-glass windows in the roof. (It is late 60's early 70's architecture) Anyway we do have pews but they are padded and circle the brick alter. We often dance barefood around the alter and the musicians are over to the side. The accoustics are not the best with the brick floor and walls, but the sense of the devine can sometimes be amazing.

It is very much not a traditional setting, and newcomers are often put off on thier first visit, but those that are curious return, and often comment on the sincerity of the worshipers. The people that make up the Church represent a wide range of beliefs from fairly traditional christianity to a more earthy, intuitive, style. It is often a challenge to worship along side (or in circle with) one another, but our love of God and his creation bridges the differences. (sorry, I think I got off topic.)

I don't know that I have anything concrete to back up these ideas of early Christians worshipping in a more pagan way, but I just feel it. Plus, all of our rituals can be traced back to paganism, including the resurrection and the eucharist. Therefore, it seems that early christians must have blended them.

Thanks for elaborating on that boysrus, I have felt (or thought) that also, yet I don't really have enough scholarly backround to back up my 'feeling'. I do feel ,that like our Christmas and Easter celebrations, most of Christian ritual can be traced back to pagan roots. I'm sure to get flamed for this, and I mean no disrespect to modern day Pagans, but IMHO, Christianity (or Christ worship) seems to be a natural evolution of ancient Paganism. Some of the ways that is manifest in modern Christian churches, however, has without a doubt, strayed a bit too far from the example of the early churches.

[Meiri]

I'm sure to get flamed for this, and I mean no disrespect to modern day Pagans, but IMHO, Christianity (or Christ worship) seems to be a natural evolution of ancient Paganism.

You might find Gus DeZereaga's book Pagans & Christians interesting. In one section I remember his mentioning that certain things assumed to have been invented by Christianity were starting to happen in the Paganism of the time too: things like charitable places that took care of the poor and sick...

Some of the ways that is manifest in modern Christian churches, however, has without a doubt, strayed a bit too far from the example of the early churches.

Amen! can I say that?

[barbara]

Originally posted by Meiri
Amen! can I say that?

Absolutely!

I'll check out that book. I did read parts of either that book or a similarly titled one that my dd had gotten from the library about a year ago. It was extreamly interesting!