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Can Catholics please vote in this poll? - Page 3

post #41 of 59

I am not catholic either, but am of Irish ancestory. My grandfather who was not religious professed to hate catholics and would not let his kids wear green on St Patrick’s day. Instead they had to wear orange.

 

I see that this is a Irish North/Protestant/Orange vs South/Catholic/Green sorta thing. But yeah it seems to involve some level of hate. And that is not a good thing to promote.

post #42 of 59

nm  - a quick google search proved me wrong.

 

 

post #43 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smokering View Post

I'm confused here. Anglicans aren't Protestant. Protestant doesn't just mean "not-Catholic", otherwise Orthodox Christians would be considered Protestant. Protestantism arose from the Reformation for theological reasons; Anglicanism arose from Henry VIII for political reasons. So is orange a Protestant colour, or an Anglican colour? Or is "Protestant" used in a different sense in Ireland? Or is Anglicanism in Ireland very low-church and evangelical and therefore more similar to Protestantism in theology and practice than Catholicism (there being a very wide spectrum of Anglicanism)? Or what?

 


I'm really trying to not post on this thread because I really don't have any desire to argue, but since you asked this, no one else has offered an answer. So I'll try.

The terms "protestant" and "catholic" and just a short hand for two different groups of people. There are currently more people in Ireland who consider themselves Catholic, for example, than believe in the existence of god. I follow yoga as a spiritual path and my favorite spiritual book is the Bhagavad Gita. I'm not a Christian, not even close. But, in Irish terms I'm a protestant because my parents are, my grandparents were, etc. For me as an American, that doesn't make sense. I don't think of myself as protestant, because I think one needs to follow Jesus to first, but Jesus doesn't figure much into the whole deal in Ireland.

Really, you can't be a good Christian, either prod or catholic, and participate in murder and terrorism. The conflict was carried about by people on both sides ignoring their 'beliefs." Jesus taught to turn the other check. Even though I'm not a christian, I think if all the people around the world who say they are Christians or considered themselves either prods or catholics actually followed his teachings, the world would be a much nicer and safer place.

Anyway, I was looking around on the internet for something this morning to help explain it and found this

"
There was often a significant misunderstanding by outside observers looking at the long running conflict in Northern Ireland who frequently saw it as a “religious war”. It never was, it was a struggle between communities with diverse histories and cultures. Thus the well know gag about the Belfast man who stated that he was Jewish, only to be asked “Yes, but are you a Catholic Jew or a Protestant Jew?”.

It's from this web site, http://www.dochara.com/the-irish/facts/about-religion/ which is from a Republic of Ireland point of view, not a N. Ireland point of view, and is quite good. There is a break down at the top that shows the break down of religions, but I can't tell if it for just the Republic or for the whole island.

For a long time, Ireland really lacked diversity. It was all white people who believed (more or less) in Jesus. It's becoming more diverse, which will hopefully help.
post #44 of 59

Ireland aside, I had always thought Anglicans were Protestants.  A quick google search seemed to suggest they were both.

 

 

post #45 of 59
I'm an Anglican posting, here. The Anglican church is both Catholic and Reformed. It is apostolic and has liturgical aspects that firmly root it in Catholocism, but is reformed in that the Roman Catholic Pope is not he head of the church. Anglicans can and do have celebrations around "Catholic" saints such as St Patrick, and have a very similar church calendar. I was involved in both the Catholic and Anglican choirs in my community as a teenager (because I love the music!) much to the (then) horror of my Anglican Irish mother (Northern Irish father, Canadian born but lived in Scotland for a few years as a child, lots of oversea involvement). There is much in common in terms of the services, but a huge divergence in how the church is structured, now (Anglicans can have female ministers, bless homosexual marriages, generally have more acceptance of scientific view points of Creation, etc).

However, despite being Anglican, I would not be comfortable with the orange man thing. It is not really just about religion. It's about two secular, political bodies (Ireland and England as countries), engaged in years of warring and strife that is certainly not of a Christian nature, over issues of national sovereinty. I have friends who grew up in Northern Ireland and can't remember not knowing what a gun or a street full of soldiers was. This is not something to glorify. In North America, St Patrick's Day is generally treated as a celebration of being of Irish descent. Historically, the Irish were both poor and profoundly persecuted, and I think there is a lot of pride in having survived and made good. I realize that in Northern Ireland, it may be seen as a Catholic celebration but the deeper issue is that it is an Irish celebration and that many Protestant Irish are in favor of Northern Ireland remaining part of Great Britain. Wearing the orange speaks to me of glorifying ethnic hatred that has been disguised as religious righteousness, despite that Jesus accepted all who came to him, be they Samaritans, prostitutes or tax collectors. I would not ever want my children involved in an organization or actions that would seem to condone bigotry and killing, so that would be nix to the orange!

Not Catholic, and didn't vote, just commented as some other posters seemed unclear as to Anglican practice.
post #46 of 59
The OP hasn't updated and I'm wondering if her area has Catholic and Protestant conflict. It's alive and well in the Maritime provinces of Canada, especially in rural regions, and socializing or marrying only within one's church is still pretty prevalent in some locales. Maybe the OP's context, while not Northern Irish, is still different than in the United States?
post #47 of 59
Thread Starter 


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by elanorh View Post

I have looked and have not found this update from the OP.


Read post 11 (page 1).

Quote:
Originally Posted by FarmerBeth View Post

The OP hasn't updated


 

Yes I did.  I said that the youth group leaders were trying to add a bit of visual fun to their message for the night and that they had no idea of the significance of the colour. DH was going to have an informal chat with them to suggest that perhaps they choose a different 'fruit' for their focus next time.

 

Our area has absolutely no Catholic-Protestant conflict, not a single one of the youth group leaders is of recent Irish descent, so I don't think it's a huge issue for a group of 18 year old Australian kids not to know the significance of the colour.  DH didn't want to cause any ill feelings - these kids are trying to do a good thing by being youth group leaders.  So a polite chat along the lines of 'hey, did you guys know this?' without laying blame or pointing the finger is the route we've chose to go down.

post #48 of 59
That sounds like it worked out! I missed your update up thread. Sounds like it was one of those accidental allusions and easily done. Actually that's cute with the "fruits" of the Holy Spirit. Also easy to see how if you did know of the Orange Order context it could be taken as your DH originally did, just one of those differences in context.
post #49 of 59
Thread Starter 

I think it's the best possible outcome - we're all happy with how it worked out :).

post #50 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by graceomalley View Post

 

Read post 11 (page 1).

 

Yes I did.  I said that the youth group leaders were trying to add a bit of visual fun to their message for the night and that they had no idea of the significance of the colour. DH was going to have an informal chat with them to suggest that perhaps they choose a different 'fruit' for their focus next time.

 

Our area has absolutely no Catholic-Protestant conflict, not a single one of the youth group leaders is of recent Irish descent, so I don't think it's a huge issue for a group of 18 year old Australian kids not to know the significance of the colour.  DH didn't want to cause any ill feelings - these kids are trying to do a good thing by being youth group leaders.  So a polite chat along the lines of 'hey, did you guys know this?' without laying blame or pointing the finger is the route we've chose to go down.

 

Alerting them to the historical background is a good idea, but suggesting that they don't ever use orange for a party theme? If they weren't deliberately hosting a "Protestant Orange" event and weren't intending to celebrate or inculcate a "Protestant Orange" message and there is no Catholic-Protestant conflict in the area, and they only selected that colour because they like it and it's a fun colour, then I'm not sure why they would avoid it in the future. Does your DH want a ban on the colour? That doesn't sit quite right. Red was offensive to anti-communists, but it wouldn't be appropriate to ban it if someone wanted to use it for a colour scheme at a party. I'm sure there are other colours that could be objectionable - eg. anti-monarchists may object to purple. 

 

 

 

post #51 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by ollyoxenfree View Post

 

Alerting them to the historical background is a good idea, but suggesting that they don't ever use orange for a party theme? If they weren't deliberately hosting a "Protestant Orange" event and weren't intending to celebrate or inculcate a "Protestant Orange" message and there is no Catholic-Protestant conflict in the area, and they only selected that colour because they like it and it's a fun colour, then I'm not sure why they would avoid it in the future.


 

Although I completely agree with you in theory (sometimes an orange shirt is just an orange shirt) I think an organized event by Protestants where everyone is encouraged to wear orange is a bad idea because many people find it offensive. Just read through the thread.  wink1.gif

 

Although there is nothing wrong with the color orange itself, to knowingly do something that some people in your community find offensive is just.... rude.  Part of getting along in a society of mixed peoples is to not *knowingly* do things that step on others' toes. 

post #52 of 59

Yeah... I doubt it'd be too much of a hardship for them to avoid the very specific theme of orange-themed parties. If they were even planning to repeat the occasion, which again sounds pretty specific and once-offy, there are plenty of other coloured fruits that would do the same job without ruffling any feathers. So it's not like they're being asked to compromise on something that's integral to their worship or would require them to alter an ingrained weekly event, you know? It's unlikely to ever come up again anyway.

post #53 of 59
Thread Starter 

Now that they know, I think they'll try a different colour if they do that theme again.  It's no big deal for them to choose plum (or something similar) next time, out of respect.

post #54 of 59

I bet they were trying for a color that both boys and girls wouldn't object to wearing. Plum might be a bit difficult to convince some of the boys to don, depending on your community. But they could easily do green, yellow, or red without offending anyone, I think.

post #55 of 59
Thread Starter 

That's very true (although I suspect half of the boys would just go for purple hair spray).  I was thinking more along the lines of colours with the same name as a fruit, since they did 'fruits' of the spirit.  Plum was the first one I thought of and I'm coming up blank when trying to think of others ...

post #56 of 59
Thread Starter 

And of course as soon as I hit submit, I thought of lime, peach and lemon, lol.

post #57 of 59

Well, according to Resene, every fruit, veggie or indeed food ever invented is a colour anyway. Tangerine, Lychee, Avocado, Latte, Tiramisu, you name it. There's probably a paint chip labelled Underdone Pork Dumpling stuck on someone's wall at this very moment.

post #58 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Linda on the move View Post

 

Although I completely agree with you in theory (sometimes an orange shirt is just an orange shirt) I think an organized event by Protestants where everyone is encouraged to wear orange is a bad idea because many people find it offensive. Just read through the thread.  wink1.gif

 

Although there is nothing wrong with the color orange itself, to knowingly do something that some people in your community find offensive is just.... rude.  Part of getting along in a society of mixed peoples is to not *knowingly* do things that step on others' toes. 

 

I guess my point is that some people in the community are going to find just about anything offensive. I'm all for accommodating sensitivities, but at some point, you reach the truism that you can't please everyone. It might be different if this was a location with Catholic-Protestant conflict.   

 


 

 


Edited by ollyoxenfree - 10/6/11 at 6:47am
post #59 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smokering View Post

Well, according to Resene, every fruit, veggie or indeed food ever invented is a colour anyway. Tangerine, Lychee, Avocado, Latte, Tiramisu, you name it. There's probably a paint chip labelled Underdone Pork Dumpling stuck on someone's wall at this very moment.



biglaugh.gif  I almost didn't open this thread again...I am so glad I did....

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