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[Astraia]

I nursed through one pregnancy. She nursed CONSTANTLY- like, up 20 times a night to nurse, 10+ times during the day- and my supply seemed fine until about 12 weeks and then started to drop.. She dry-nursed (or got colostrum, really) from then on. The only thing that kept my supply up in the 10-12 week mark, I think, was that she got a terrible cold. I'd noticed a drop in my supply the day I ovulated... and the day her brother was conceived, though I didn't make that connection for awhile... and it stayed slightly lower until Nigella got sick. Then it came back full force until she was healthy again and then dropped rather significantly immediately afterwards. Weird, huh?

So it slowly decreased from 12 weeks on, and then switched to colostrum somewhere after 20 weeks. I tried everything I could think of- more milk two, mothers milk tea, fenugreek, blessed thistle, more calories, more water, using a breast pump regularly, and nothing helped. I had to have her on formula at about 15 weeks of the pregnancy because there wasn't enough milk to keep her satisfied (and she was 7 months old); she was starving. I felt like the worst parent ever when she chugged back her first bottle without even any hesitation- this from a baby who'd turned her nose up at even expressed milk until then.

This time as soon as I got my BFP I started cutting back on nursing, making nursing sessions shorter. Currently at 10 weeks I have basically nothing, but both kids nurse a maximum of 1 time a day and 3 times at night and only for as long as it takes me to sing Twinkle Twinkle Little Star. Even that is horrible and painful and occasionally I sing REALLY fast to make it end. I've dropped nearly 2 cup sizes in the first trimester. It's weird. I need to buy smaller bras. Kids are almost 3 and 1 and a half. I feel no motivation nurse through a pregnancy when I find it so painful and get so touched-out, and it doesn't maintain my supply anyway.

ALittleSandy- so sorry for what you've been through! That was my worst fear when I was pregnant the first time, that I'd have a breech baby who wouldn't turn and would be, in essence, abandoned by my midwife team. Luckily it didn't happen to me and i'm so sorry it happened to you. I second contacting ICAN. I've even heard of people who find a midwife/doctor far away from where they live, and then live with a friend or rent a tiny apartment for the last few weeks so they're nearby when it happens. Or driving to a hotel at the first sign of labour so they can get to the hospital where it is allowed.

[Natalya]

Oh man, I feel nervous about not having enough milk now.  sosurreal, you think I should try to get a milk donor? How will I know if my ds is not getting enough milk?  How do you know if your supply has dropped?  I have been feeling guilty about getting pregnant so quickly after him, and this makes me feel even worse, my poor guy! 

[Astraia]

The benefits of breastfeeding a toddler are the added calories, connection to you, and all those benefits of breastmilk. But at this age, at just over 1 and getting solids, he doesn't NEED to nurse. You could definitely do a donor milk if it's important to you, but it depends on what you're wanting. If you're wanting him to be getting the majority of his calories from nursing, you might be out of luck. If you want the connection and the immunities, an easily digestible source of hydration etc then even a small amount of milk or even just colostrum still has a lot of benefits to your toddler and he can make up the brunt of his calories from other sources. Totally up to you.

It can be incredibly hard (read: impossible, nothing you do will make a difference) to maintain a good supply during pregnancy. Or a bit o' fenugreek in the morning could be all you need. Some women have no issues at all, of course, but other women have nothing but issues. The hormones that support pregnancy are not the ones to support milk production, and at some point in the pregnancy your milk will turn to colostrum- the average from my research seemed to be about 20 weeks, but some can maintain milk until a few weeks before the baby is born.

To see if he's getting enough- watch/listen for swallowing. If he's swallowing like he normally does, there's still some decent flow there. If his nursing sessions get really really long, that's a sign too. If he's waking up a lot more at night, that can indicate he's hungry (or teeth, or milestone, or who knows with night waking sometimes?!) Significant stool changes- if they're much firmer it can indicate a drop in supply, or if he starts eating a lot more or drinking a lot more water/milk that can indicate a change there too. Softer/smaller breasts can sometimes be a sign too, but not always. If you go a longer than normal stretch without nursing and don't feel engorgement or a real sense of fullness then it's a lower supply thing as well.

Colostrum- could have mushier poos, because it's so easily digestible it goes right through them. And if you try to express any milk, a few drops with your fingers, it looks watery instead of milky.

Some kids, too, don't like to nurse during pregnancy. It is very dependent on the child and the age of the child. Milk can change flavours and consistency during pregnancy which some kids are very averse to. I know a lot of children who self-weaned during a pregnancy when the supply dropped enough or when it changed to colostrum. If your son is very attached to the boob (literally and figuratively :) then you may not ever have to worry about that, but it can happen sometimes.

Sorry if this is freaking you out or depressing you. I was a tearful disaster when I found out all this stuff when my DD was 5.5 months old. I totally understand the guilt, too.  You will find amazing ways to connect with your son or meet his needs without nursing, or with nursing but without the transfer of milk. When Nigella was dry nursing, she'd often latch on and just hang out and we'd have long eye-gazing sessions and snuggles that were honestly better then when she just nursed. She wasn't getting the calories from me but from formula, but we got the other connections instead.

[sosurreal09]

Natalya's baby is 1 y/o in December. Yes I would get donor milk, you may need it. *I* still think babies need human milk until at least 2 y/o (you can look at the WHOs stance on it, if you want). Actually even if I FF I would probably do the toddler formula after a year. Just IMO...

I have also heard raw goat's milk is closest to human milk (maybe after he is 1, if you don't have enough milk (yours or donors)).

ITA with the above about the signs he's not getting enough. Watch out for those! Also look out for weight decline, no growth etc.

So I had gained 10lbs thus far and now this week have lost 3lbs. Do you think that's OK? I am eating as much as I can, everything seems so filling suddenly. I'm not getting sick, just still have the aversions and my portion size seems to have dramatically declined (but I feel REALLY full only after a small amount of food...)

I don't feel like my milk is lacking b/c DD is swallowing well and doing the same roughly at night..but she is eating a ton...and nursing a ton. I am *thinking* a little growth spurt.

[Just1More]

I wouldn't worry about donor milk.  There are lots of other things you can give them that are super healthy.  There are even recipes for homemade formulas that I would try before anything else, probably.  I would try to keep nursing (even with no milk) for all the other benefits, and maybe he'll get some more milk after the baby comes. 

Dd3 is nursing a lot less all the sudden, and when she does nurse, she just holds onto it mostly.  I still have milk, and her teeth are hurting me!  I am hoping she's just weird from all the traveling we've been doing.  I am SO ready to be home.  4 more days.  4 more days.  Today I spent in a hotel room with a screaming one year old.  Right now I'm vegging on the bed while dh has all 4 kids outside.  He couldn't get back fast enough for me today...sigh. 

[sosurreal09]

J/W why you think homemade formula would be better than human donor milk? If I had a child under a year and became pregnant I would absolutely go to human milk 4 human babies and get donor milk (which is also free so a way better option financially than formula).

[Just1More]

I wasn't saying it was better.  I didn't know that it was free to get donor milk, so I was just offering what may have been a more viable option. 

Also, though, while I do like my babies to nurse as long as possible, I'm not sold on that two year mark.  Yes, it's probably best, but I don't know that I have to go all out to make it happen.  She should have milk until her baby is past a year old, so I wouldn't worry over much about it.  That's just me.  Now, if my baby were much younger than that, it would be different.  Say, the baby was only 4 or 5 months old and would be months and months without mama milk in the first year. 

[lindsayjean]

Hey all!!!  I am a bit overwhelmed with decisions for this birth for some reason.  It was so simple last time- hire a midwife and go!  Now that I WORK in the birth world I realize how MANY choices I have- and I have so many midwives I love, doulas, and the fact that we have no idea WHERE the heck we'll be living when this little is born (husband is searching the country for jobs right now....).  I need to call the woman who was the apprentice at my last birth and she might be my primary, but the drive is SO far compared to some midwives who will come to your house for prenatals.  OH I don't know!

[Natalya]

Hi everybody!  I will check into the donor thing.  Human milk does seem better, but I also appreciate Just1more suggesting another option, it's nice to know all my options.  Donor milk does seem hard to do, but I think it's just because I don't know much about it. Astraia, thanks for the reassuring words.  I am so sensitive these days and I worry so much anyways, I feel like I just need people to tell me everything will be fine.  

Lindsayjean, you're lucky to know all you have to choose from! I'm sorry everything is up in the air, that can be frustrating.

 I finally got things *sort of* figured out with our midwife.  There is ONE homebirth midwife in the area that we will be moving to (in December or January), so she said that we can plan on working together, and I can keep her updated over the phone or email.  Wierd, huh?  I may go to a midwife around here to hear the heartbeat, and MAYBE an U/S.  Who here is getting an ultrasound?  I think a lot of it is a guilty/selfish pleasure because I don't feel that it is a necessary thing, BUT I want to hear this baby's heartbeat. Also this time around I want to know the sex so bad, whereas before I never cared to know ahead of time.  I think it's because I want a girl so bad. 

[Plummeting]

I'm definitely getting a u/s. My cousin's son had a severe case of spina bifida that required immediate surgery. They saw it on the u/s months ahead of time. I don't want to be surprised by that at birth, if I can avoid it. Of course, I know u/s can miss those sorts of things, but still...I'd rather do what I can (within what I think is reasonable) to make sure I'm at a hospital if I need to be.

[mama4peace]

I will be getting an ultrasound. I have a history of preterm labor caused by a shortened cervix. I have had three this pregnancy due to complications. My midwife is actually supporting getting the twenty week u/s because of previous and current issues.

I had my first prenatal with my midwife and her assistant yesterday! Heartbeat is a strong 175bpm. I am excited because my midwives assistant was my doula for my last birth. We both were disappointed because she didn't make it to the hospital in time for the birth! I feel like we finally will get what we wanted out of my last birth this birth. I am getting more and more excited every day about this birth

Who all is planning a water birth? I am still in the air about it. I would like to attempt it but not sure if I will stay in the water since I like to move around a lot during labor!

[sosurreal09]

Natalya I understand your concern and w/e you chose is obviously the best choice here is the human milk 4 human babies website http://www.hm4hb.net/ to connect you with donors in your area.

IDK if I will do an ultrasound or not. I was not going to but I have been having some pains and the MW expressed concern over an infection I had with my IUD a few months before I got pregnant (which I had the IUD removed),

[Just1More]

I'm not getting an u/s.  My last one with with dc3.  They thought they saw something, and things went haywire after that.  I was immediately bumped to high risk and sent to see a specialist.  A specialist who, after an hour long detailed ultrasound on her heart, found NOTHING.  I was told I was still considered high risk, and that I had to have weekly u/s, and would probably be induced right at 40 weeks so I could be monitored.  I'm okay with an u/s here and there, but a higher level, long length u/s once a week?  For 10 weeks?  No, thanks.  I do start wondering about the harmful effects of u/s at that point.  But, at least they didn't make me go to the higher level hospital 3 hours away! 

Right...I was doing shadow care, and my midwife felt okay with the second u/s.  I politely cancelled my further appointments, and just tried to lay low until the baby came (totally healthy) in a (beautiful, easy) homebirth.  I kept getting calls from the specialist and the hospital warning me that I was putting my baby at risk, and that I really needed to come in.  It was really stressful, and I was worried they would call CPS or something. 

Through that I learned that only about 15% of problems are detected by u/s.  And that the majority of problems do give you enough time to get to a reasonably close hospital and get them dealt with.  So, no more u/s for me. 

But, that said...if I could accidently happen to see if this baby is a boy or girl....sigh, that'd be great.

Oh, and as I sit here with my heart racing again, I suppose it's possible they'll want to check on the baby when I go to have my heart checked.  And, I'll probably let them.

[JynxGirl]

For people worrying about supply, have any of you tried lactation cookies? I used to be a huge part of the livejournal breastfeeding community, and there was a woman there who posted this recipe that worked wonders almost everyone. I know the situation is different when you're pregnant, but they may still help. (Plus, DELICIOUS!!!)

http://www.design.noelove.com/cook/?p=136

[mama4peace]

Just1more-I get the heart racing thing too! Do they know what it is? It drives me crazy.

[Just1More]

oooo.  oatmeal.  That stuff ups my supply ridiculously.  The first time it happened, I didn't even know oatmeal could do that.  We had a huge amount of oatmeal flour/oat muffins, and that's all we ate for a day or so.  My 14mo started choking on it, there was so much milk.  It was so wierd.  When I am nursing, especially in the first few months, I really have to avoid it or my over supply just gets crazy!  So, I def. recommend the oatmeal. :)

m4p-There are lots of theories about what causes palpitations.  They are common especially in pregnancy because your body is working so hard to increase your blood volume.  That, combined with funky hormones, can cause them.  I seem to be able to prevent mine if I take my vitamins, especially iron, don't get too warm, stay very well hydrated, sleep well, and don't eat anything fake, especially soda.  B vitamins, magnesium, and potassium can help significantly.  It can be because of an electrolyte/mineral imbalance or lack.  A b12 problem can cause hidden anemia, and THAT can cause them, too. 

I *think* mine are caused by low blood pressure.  When mine are particularly bad, I've taken my bp and it will be in the low 100s over 60 or so.  I know that's supposed to be a good number, but I am always, since I was a kid, 120/72.  20 points lower than normal sure can make you feel differently!  When they get really bad, I feel dizzy and weak, my chest gets tight and I breathe harder.  I feel a little disoriented, and really, really awful.  I get terrible headaches, sometimes migraines, and sometimes my heart seems to "skip" beats.  I still think I am in the realm of normal, but they say if you have any symptoms beside palpitations you should get checked out for an underlying heart problem.  Since I can prevent/stop mine, I think that says a lot.  But, I've been dealing with this since I was 18, and it seems to be a bit worse, so I'm going to check it out.  Though I think it is worse because my body is more worn down...4 kids in 5 years will do that to you!  :)

[lindsayjean]

I will be getting a 20 week scan.  Approximately, lol, since I am not sure when this baby was conceived.  I am not opposed to people not getting them, but for me personally the benefit of one U/S outweighs the risks.  I would like to know ahead of time if there are any issues (ex- my friend just found out her son will be born w/ clubbed feet and possibly some issues that would cause him to only live a few hours/days).  I also have a very high chance of twins since there are a gazillion sets in my family (I'm even a twin), so it'd be good to know that as well :-) 

[LuNaLu]

3rd baby for us, 2nd planned home birth.  

We're using the same midwife for this one and will be using Hypnobabies again, so hopefully the birth experience will be just as awesome :)

[Plummeting]

This is an old article by the infamous Dr. Amy, but I just found it a few weeks ago, and I was flabbergasted. Not that the medical community would kill a pregnant woman or her baby and cover it up - I think they regularly cover up the cause of maternal deaths, just think back to that "Christmas miracle" a couple years ago, when the epidural was clearly placed improperly and the woman almost died, and the hospital claimed they had no idea what happened or how, but thank heavens she was in the hospital so they could save her! No, that sort of thing doesn't surprise me. What surprises me is that Dr. Amy, who constantly pretends that hospitals are practically risk-free birth zones, and that interventions are totally safe, has lost a patient due to an intervention that went wrong. It's just maddening that, even after experiencing something like this, she still constantly puts it out there that those evil, bad home birth midwives are lying about their qualifications or covering up their maternal mortality rates and that hospitals are where you're monitored and safe and doctors are totally on your side. I dunno...it's just so ironic in a horrible, awful way that a doctor who's been through this would act the way she does about home birth vs. hospital birth.

She says the death was caused by "a series of unfortunate anesthetic complications, compounded by inadequate medical response". Gee, might that "inadequate medical response" be a result of women being left to labor alone, unsupervised by anyone at a busy hospital? You know, the sort of thing that almost never happens at home? Sure, there can be the occasional midwife who fails to react quickly enough, but isn't what all of us are constantly saying is that it's par for the course at a hospital with 1 nurse for every 5 laboring women that inadequate medical response is going to happen now and then? Geez.

http://open.salon.com/blog/amytuteurmd/2009/03/30/they_killed_my_patient_then_they_tried_to_hide_it

[Just1More]

Plummeting- :dizzy  Wow.  I read the whole thing and all the comments, too.  My dh is asleep on the floor with the kids in our hotel room.  Oops.  I really don't know what to think about all that.  It really, really annoys me not to be able to tell if someone is telling the truth.  I certainly don't like her tone, but that's not cause to shoot the messenger.  Sigh.  As far as her saying hospital birth is safer than homebirth...well, I didn't look up her study, but I suspect it's skewed.  The catch about homebirth vs hospital is that the hospital is GOING to have a much worse record.  They have to take that hit because they have to treat anyone who walks through the door.  If a mama experiences a placental abruption and transfers, it isn't the midwife who takes that mark.  It's the receiving hospital.  But, that's also what makes homebirth safe.  A good midwife, and a careful mama, are going to transfer at the first sign of medical need.  I know the hospital needs time to respond, but most things give just *that* much time.  I am, however, not one who would be comfortable birthing far away from a hospital.  Ours is literally less than 5 minutes down the road.  I don't know that I feel compelled to be that close, but it is a factor in our decision. 

On a similar note, I read a story recently of a mama who was so thankful for the hospital after her placenta didn't come out after an hour or so.  They gave her pitocin, then the doc thought it was coming, so she pulled on it.  It tore into pieces, the mama pph, and nearly died.  It took something like a few weeks and 4 units of blood, and emergency surgery to save her.  Was she really "saved", though?  Or was this a result of medical intervention? 

I thought back to my second birth.  I've mentioned that it was crazy fast.  Well, afterwards, I was bleeding a lot.  My very crunchy midwife wanted to give me pitocin to help me stop bleeding, and I consented.  She also applied very light traction on the cord, which I thought was odd, and almost protested.  But, I could tell she was a little concerned.  I did, apparently, loose quite a bit of blood, though.  It took me a long time to fully recover.  I felt weak and had other issues for quite a while after he was born.  Anyway, when I was pg with my 3rd, I discovered that I had evidence of a torn cervix.  I've read those can bleed a lot, and I wonder now if all that bleeding was not from my uterus, but from that tear?  It's significant, maybe 1/4 inch or more on one side.  Anyway, I totally trust that midwife, and wished I would have asked.  It's probably been too long for her to remember now.  My point is that she applied traction in the case of a lot of blood, so maybe that's why the decided that woman's placenta needed to come out now? 

I just get so frustrated at the lack of details.  It makes it so hard to be objective.