Unvaccinated Kids as a Threat

[rredhead]

Hi,

I've been a non-vaxing parent for 5.5 years now, so I'm usually pretty good at letting pro-vax comments go. But there's one that always gets to me: The unvaccinated are a threat to all people.

I know that people who have had the IPV vax can still be carriers for polio. I believe that the other contagious diseases and vaccines (measles, for example) create the same effect. I know I read the IPV info here. 

It's hard to find arguments that refute the myth that the unvaccinated are dangerous. I admit I'm especially mad right now because someone on another forum called my child "a loaded gun". I usually stay out of vaccine discussions entirely, but someone asked about doing the schedule vs. separating, and I advocated separating. 

Anyone???

Thanks!

~Robyn

[emmy526]

i've been a nonvaxing mom for over 20yrs, and the comments will never end. I have heard that comment for over 20yrs too.   People are just too quick to believe someone in "authority" on the issue, rather than seeing the truth with their own eyes or making a judgement about the issue on their own.  To me, its pointless to argue with someone who wants to change your mind when its clear thats all they have on their agenda. If they were truly interested, they would welcome info on the contrary to the practice, and thus, make an informed choice.  But for me, people who just make blanket statements about vaxing with no supporting argument, they mite as well just shut up, because the more they talk, the more idiotic they sound.(speaking from experience that still continues)

and i advocate for informed choice.. if/when parents want to vax, that's on them.. i just hope they made an informed decision.

[Cmahnken]

Seems like i should be talking with you two! I am pregnant with my first (14w) and am leaning towards no vax. my mom is one of 9 - none of whom were vaccinated, and my brother and I were not  as well....so naturally I lean this way. However, my baby's father is not completely on board...and Im not sure that I will be able to convince him. What are your thoughts on some yes, some no? HELP!

[BubblingBrooks]

Loaded gun huh? You need to remind that they should revisit why they vaccinated in the first place, lol!
 

Originally Posted by rredhead 

Hi,

I've been a non-vaxing parent for 5.5 years now, so I'm usually pretty good at letting pro-vax comments go. But there's one that always gets to me: The unvaccinated are a threat to all people.

I know that people who have had the IPV vax can still be carriers for polio. I believe that the other contagious diseases and vaccines (measles, for example) create the same effect. I know I read the IPV info here. 

It's hard to find arguments that refute the myth that the unvaccinated are dangerous. I admit I'm especially mad right now because someone on another forum called my child "a loaded gun". I usually stay out of vaccine discussions entirely, but someone asked about doing the schedule vs. separating, and I advocated separating. 

Anyone???

Thanks!

~Robyn

[rredhead]

A woman asked if there was any reason to vax on a delayed schedule. Almost everyone posted no. One person posted that her child had a serious reaction to vaccines, so they didn't vax for medical reasons. I posted that vaccination should be a choice and included a list of everything in the first batch of vaccines.

Under normal circumstances, I would have stayed out of it, but, given the topic, I thought I was being neutral enough. Apparently I was wrong. 

I just want to know if vaccinated people can carry the diseases for which they're vaccinated. I believe that they can. I know they can with polio if they received IPV as opposed to OPV. The "your child is a threat to my child" is the only argument that I can't immediately refute. Simply saying that "Your child is vaccinated, so you shouldn't worry" isn't enough. Some people know that vaccines aren't 100% and that there are people who can't receive vaccines for medical reasons. To these people, the unvaxed are threats.

Thanks!

[emmy526]

"Your child is vaccinated, so you shouldn't worry" isn't enough. Some people know that vaccines aren't 100% and that there are people who can't receive vaccines for medical reasons. To these people, the unvaxed are threats.

 

and some vaxes shed so "those" people are threatened anyway...

[lokidoki]

There are several vaccines that do not prevent transmission ~ Tdap and pertussis are really good examples. There is absolutely no evidence that these vaccines prevent transmission ~ and even further there is some evidence that a vaccinated individual can be a carrier. The vaccine can lessen the symptoms of pertussis thereby making it easier to spread to those "too young to vax".

Another is that vaxing their kids against chicken pox actually shifts danger to the older population by causing more frequent bouts of shingles. I was talking with my neighbor the other day who was asked to get a shingles vaccine. This never used to be as big of a problem ~ but the wild virus is not out there boosting our natural immunity!

There is also no evidence that the HPV vaccine being administered to young girls (and a similar vaccine now approved for young boys) prevents transmission either!

IMHO ~ unless they are holding test subjects in a stainless steel drum ~ there is no evidence on any vaccine that transmission is prevented by vaccinating. It is only an assumed theory on the part of scientists...

There is a lot of danger in vaxing...

But I agree with the PP ~ I have given up trying to make up someone else's mind about vaccinations. I am tired of having crappy propaganda shoved down my throat so I only mention our vax status when I absolutely have to do it or when I am asked by a parent who is considering/researching not vaxing. My minister is on a big HPV kick right now ~ we attend a very liberal church however he seems to feel that the HPV vaccine is a modern scientific miracle and is going to save tons of lives! I have tried to kindly say ~ even if it was a really good vaccine and did what it proclaims to do (which I am skeptical about) ~ it is not going to get to the girls who actually would benefit from it because it is a 3-shot series at $400 each. Those who are actually dying of cervical cancer are lacking in healthcare coverage and funding to begin with...why not offer them annual pap smears and exams instead (probably save a good portion of that money spent vaccinating). But alas he continues to believe that this vaccine is going to save women every where ~ and I have decided that it is just not worth my time to debate someone or something that doesn't want to be debated (and likely has a lot of fear in thinking that he has just vaxed his 3 teenagers ~ 1 girl, 2 boys ~ for something that could potentially be dangerous). 

[MeTooMama]

Always happy to find some kindred folks. I don't even take my kids to the doctor unless they're actually sick! (Which is rare) Every time they get sick it's done and over with in less than a few days and they whine about being miserable. My brother is the same way. We always say that his immune system is so strong that if something ever makes him really sick, we'd better run for the hills!

The sheeple believing in vax as the keys to all health get to me too. We tried to take the kids to get a physical last year and were actually told we'd need to be quarantined because we didn't vax... I stomped out of there quickly!

[rredhead]

Originally Posted by lokidoki 

There are several vaccines that do not prevent transmission ~ Tdap and pertussis are really good examples. There is absolutely no evidence that these vaccines prevent transmission ~ and even further there is some evidence that a vaccinated individual can be a carrier. The vaccine can lessen the symptoms of pertussis thereby making it easier to spread to those "too young to vax".

Thanks! This is what I wanted to know. 

The danger of the chicken pox vax is that it's bringing chicken pox to adults and shingles to kids. Anyone who has had chicken pox or the chicken pox vax can get shingles. Usually, senior citizens get it. But, because the chicken pox vax isn't all that effective, and it's not effective for very long, adults are starting to get chicken pox. Meanwhile, younger people are getting shingles. Shingles is very very painful, too. 

The HPV vax is a huge crock and potentially deadly. I hope they pull it.

Thanks for the info!

~Robyn

[japonica]

Originally Posted by lokidoki 

There are several vaccines that do not prevent transmission ~ Tdap and pertussis are really good examples. There is absolutely no evidence that these vaccines prevent transmission ~ and even further there is some evidence that a vaccinated individual can be a carrier. The vaccine can lessen the symptoms of pertussis thereby making it easier to spread to those "too young to vax".

We actually had another example of this in Queensland back in May when a 22 year-old woman ("believed unimmunised") became infected with diphtheria via a friend who was carrying the bacteria on a return trip from overseas. She passed away. The friend did not suffer serious illness.

http://news.theage.com.au/breaking-news-national/diphtheria-death-in-brisbane-shocks-ama-20110503-1e64k.html

So, government officials and the media used it as an example of how everyone should have their shots up to date, but it's also an example of how vaccinated individuals can carry the bacteria asymptomatically or with mild symptoms and then pass it along to others. There's not much herd immunity there in that sense, but then the product information about the diphtheria component states this outright...that the diphtheria vaccine does not and will not prevent carriage of the bacteria--it will only provide protection against clinical infection. The pertussis vaccine likewise does not prevent colonization nor transmission of the bacteria.

To the OP: Many people will always believe that 1) all vaccines prevent transmission and provide herd immunity and 2) unvaccinated kids are thus disease magnets and a threat to public health when neither of these is true. But there's usually not a lot that can be said against anyone who doesn't want to believe otherwise, so it's not worth arguing about IMO.

Edited by japonica - 9/29/11 at 6:58am

[rredhead]

To the OP: Many people will always believe that 1) all vaccines prevent transmission and provide herd immunity and 2) unvaccinated kids are thus disease magnets and a threat to public health when neither of these is true. But there's usually not a lot that can be said against anyone who doesn't want to believe otherwise, so it's not worth arguing about IMO.

Understood. I just wanted to know that I'm right. 

[MeTooMama]

This makes me worried. My husband had vax from everything under the sun from the Army and he already never gets sick so I worry that he could be a carrier to just about ANYTHING and bring it home to our kids. Luckily, nothing's happened. But, I say as a non-vax parent, I am more hesitant to let my kids play with vax kids than some vaxers are about letting their kids play with mine. Hubby and I both had chicken pox when we were little. I had it at 4 and he had it as a baby. We lived and are doing fine. My mom had rubella as a teen and thanks to her breastfeeding me I am immune to it without even ever having it which I think is the coolest thing ever! But all those mama's looking at our kids like they're staring at the outbreak monkey make me want to grab a mirror from my purse.

I actually woke up afraid of the new baby getting some bizarre illness from all the people around here. It's like they bathe in triclosan and poop vaccines by the way they act sometimes. ROFL