what to do about willful defiance in 2 1/2 year old?

[pranava]

My 2.5 year old is clearly testing me.  I'm not sure how to pass this test!  Here's a specific example.  He is fiddling around with the burner knob on the stove.  I say "DS, don't touch that honey.  It's very dangerous!  You could turn the fire on and burn yourself."  He then grabs two burner knobs firmly with both hands and looks at me and doesn't move.  His face reads "Oh this,  what are you going to do about it."

What should I do about it?  How have you successfully dealt with this type of showdown?

[transylvania_mom]

Isn't that fun? You'll never get bored with a 2 or 3 y/o around!

What works / worked with my kids at that age is distracting them: wow, dd, come see what I'm doing here! (even if what I'm currently doing is washing the dishes, they find everything fascinating at that age). Or if I'm in a not-so-patient mood, I'll just physically remove her and explain: it's dangerous. This may or may not result in a tantrum.

You'll probably have to repeat this over and over... at some point I can assure you it will sink in.

[caenach]

Yep--redirect, distraction, silliness, saying "yes" whenever possible, hey-let's-run-around-the-room-with-our-hands-on-our-head instead of saying "don't touch the knobs" for the eleventieththousand time. If it's a for-real "no" situation, I give a warning and then remove them physically/help them move onto another activity.

I just really, really try to stay out of the power struggle situation. For me, phrases like "willful defiance" can be really charged with negativity from my own past/childhood. I try to empathize with how DD must feel. How random the "rules" must seem, how strong the impulses/feelings she's just learning to process, how hard it must be to hear a litany of no/don't/stop all day long. Pushing at boundaries is one way that DD learns about the world and I WANT her to ask questions and re-examine the status quo. I'm not saying that I exactly love the "no, I won't do what you say." :p I just don't think, that at this age/phase, it's really productive to read too much into it.

[HeliMom]

If it's a danger thing like knob turning, I realize my 2.5 year old can't be trusted by the knobs. So I baby proof with stove top covers,  I redirect her to her play kitchen which is set up in our kitchen, and  if that doesn't work I tell her flat out "if you can't follow safety instructions you can't be in he kitchen with me. I need you to be safe so I'm kicking you out of the kitchen for now." Then I kick her out of the kitchen.   It's not meant to punish her, so if she asks for something from the kitchen I'll hand it to her from over the safety gate. 

Non- safety stuff, I reevaluate if I really need to say no, looking for reasons to say yes. If the answer is still a no, I try to phrase it as a yes. "Yes we will go to the library tomorrow" (when asked to go now) I try to distract and try involve her in choosing the next activity.

If we have meltdown I offer myself to her, first by empathizing, if that doesn't help or inflames the situation I let her cry and be upset (as long as she's not being destructive) and in a little bit I let her know if she wants a hug I'm there for her, but I do remain firm in saying no.

2 1/2 years will push boundaries, it's nothing personal.  For me and my family it works best to stop worrying about winning and focus on keeping everyone safe and modeling how to show respect even when feeling really tested.  All while chanting to myself in my head "this too shall pass" because it really will.

[wytchywoman]

Welcome to the "2's". I agree with trying to prevent as much as you can. Do some major baby proofing because that will reduce the number of opportunities he has to call your bluff. For the things that can't be prevented....distraction, or ignoring it all together, is preferable to butting heads all day long. What he's doing is engaging in attention seeking behavior. Don't give him attention for it, and help him understand that there are plenty of positive ways to gain your love and attention.

[TheHusband]

Wow. I am absolutely astonished by the fact that no one has stated the obvious here: be the parent! So many parents are so worried about being their little darling's friend that they forget to be the parent. It's OK to say no. It is necessary to say no. Let me take that one step further: you will probably ruin your child's life if you DON'T say no!

Let me remind everyone of some things that seem to have fallen out of the common understanding. Children are born looking for their limitations. As their mobility increases, this looking will often place them in situations where it is necessary to make some very clear limitations for their own safety, and sometimes just for our own sanity as parents. How we deal with these limitations will make a tremendous impact on their lives as they grow up. Too many children never receive non-negotiable limitations from their parents, and hence they grow up thinking that nothing happens to rule-breakers, and then they end up in jail because the police do what their parents wouldn't do: enforce the rules.

Here's some basic things you need to do with your son.

1. Be clear and non-negotiable on your rules. Consistency is very important. If something is a rule, it needs to always apply. Work with your spouse/significant other to make sure that the rules are being applied as consistently as possible. It is hard enough for a kid to deal with rules in the first place, without having to wonder if it's still a rule today.

2. Act consistently with your words. NEVER make idle threats. If you can't legitimately keep the threat, for example "don't do that or I'll break your fingers," just don't say it. It will severely damage your credibility with your child. They need to know that their parents mean what they say.

3. Don't EVER let them whine or fuss you into bending, even if it's something little like "no, you can't have another cookie right now." If you do, you establish that you are weak and easily manipulated, and set yourself up for perpetual power struggles.

4. Don't be afraid to deal swift and meaningful punishment. In the case of the stove knob grab, he needed to have his fingers slapped. He knew full well that he was asking for trouble, and you MUST give it to him. As unpleasant as it seems, the most loving thing you can do for your children is to establish at an early age that disobedience has consequences, and a 2 1/2 year old isn't going to really grasp any other kind of punishment. They won't feel abused; they'll feel punished. Sure, they'll fuss and pout sometimes, but unless you do it angrily, they won't doubt your love for a split second. They will simply learn that you are an authority in their life.

By setting the precedent early on that you mean what you say, and that disobedience has consequences, you can avoid a lot of struggle down the road. My son is now 3 1/2 and I rarely have to dish out more than a warning. When I give an instruction with no threat attached, it's generally enough. When I give an instruction with a threat attached, for example a spanking or loss of a privilege, he almost never tests me on it, because he knows I don't make any idle threats.

Parenting is not complicated. It's one of the hardest things any of us ever attempt, but really, it's pretty simple if you know how to do it.

[Callimom]

TheHusband - children don't need to be hit to be taught. Ever. They don't need to be threatened with being hit. I suggest reading the forum guidelines which I am pretty sure you are violating.

OP  your son needs you to show him the limits and boundaries that apply in your family. He's literally looking at you to learn if he is at the limit. 

In our family, issues of safety get one warning and then my physical presence which may mean removing them from the situation, or just supervising (depending on what's going on).  I personally disagree with the approach of making discipline around safety issues "fun".   I don't joke or laugh or make it in any way rewarding for them to attempt to either try that again, or  take my comments about "No that's not safe" less seriously than they should be.

For young kids, and especially boys, I always kept explanations to a minimum, lowered my voice and sounded very serious. In your specific example I would issue the direction and then the explanation: "Get down now. That's not safe." and I would be moving toward him to get him away from the stove.

hth

Karen  

[Mittsy]

Can someone else keep him busy while you cook? Or can you direct him to his own kitchen while you cook? Other than keeping him out while you cook I would either get those knob covers, or take them off altogether and only put them on when you need to cook.

[Cynthia Mosher]

TheHusband - welcome to Mothering.

Please read our guidelines for posting to the Gentle Discipline forum and our Web Statement of Purpose. That should give you a better idea of what sort of community this is and what Mothering's parenting philosophies are. We don't host discussions that advocate punishment of children. So please - if you wish to post to this discussion and in general here at Mothering, become familiar with attachment parenting and our rules and guidelines.

[mamazee]

If you scare your kids by hitting them when they do something wrong, they might get scared enough to not do things they think you might not want them to do when they're still very young. It will not teach them to not do things because they're wrong or dangerous, only to not do things because they're afraid of you, and being afraid of you can cause other problems. It also completely loses effectiveness when they get older and bigger, and on top of that it can lead to other behavior prolbems - like them hitting other children or other people, them hiding things from you out of a fear of punishment, etc.

Some things kids simply outgrow, and a lot of safety issues fall into that realm. All toddlers play with things they shouldn't play with because they're little scientists and are experimenting with everything, but you can reason with all older kids not to do that kind of thing. For things like stoves, baby proofing can give you time until they have some sense.

Older toddlers do go into a quest for autonomy, because they're at an age where it's developmentally appropriate for them to separate from you a bit. They will look for areas where they can control themselves, and won't like to be controlled by you. It only gets worse - it usually peaks at 3.5 based on all the threads we have here about 3.5-year-olds, but giving them some areas where they are in control sometimes helps them feel better about the many areas where they are not in control. Can he dress himself? Does he have cups and plates and bowls where he can reach them so he can help get his own snacks together? Try finding some areas where he can take on a bit of responsibility and he might not fight back so often in non-negotiable areas. Also, if you let him some autonomy and let him have his way where it isn't harmful, dangerous, etc., you will have an easier time gently holding firm on those areas that are harmful, dangerous, or otherwise forbidden. It gets very frustrating to deal with power struggle after power struggle after power struggle all day, so only getting into the ones that are very important makes for fewer frustrations, and if you aren't as frustrated when one of these power struggles come up, you might stay more relaxed and not get as upset.

[TheHusband]

"It will not teach them to not do things because they're wrong or dangerous, only to not do things because they're afraid of you,"

If that is true, then you didn't do it correctly; in fact, for that to be true, you would have to either brutalize your child, or "punish" them for nothing at all. This punishment doesn't always have to be physical, as in many cases other means might be more effective, and in some cases, as with older children, corporal punishment really doesn't work at all. Properly disciplined, children understand that when they do wrong, they get punished. They don't fear their parents; they fear the consequences of disobedience. This is something that is sorely lacking in our society. Young people do whatever they feel like because they have no fear of consequences. If you don't set that precedent early on, they won't expect it later, and then they will end up in jail, or perhaps just looting London. Check this out, and see if something doesn't ring true: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2024284/UK-riots-2011-Liberal-dogma-spawned-generation-brutalised-youths.html

If this is not a forum where all ideas may be discussed based on their merit, then it is not a forum at all. I have been respectful and helpful. If I am incorrect, please point out where, rather than simply say "you can't say that here." Unless something is defamatory, obscene, or degrading, it ought not be banned from a public forum. Simple saying that it is unacceptable to post something because you disagree with it is absurd.

[Cynthia Mosher]

Then I think the Mothering forums are not the place to present your thoughts. We do require that you adhere to our guidelines so if you are not inclined to do so I think you will find a number of forums on the web that have no specific web purpose and will let you post whatever you like.

[nisojon]

Our DD was/is impressively strong-willed, or as Dr. Sears (I think) nicely puts it - "spirited." Even a child psychologist remarked that she was EXTREMELY strong-willed. That said, I empathize with you and want to encourage you in consistency and saying what you mean/meaning what you say over 100s and even 1000s of times - it really does finally sink in. I remember thinking before I had kids that surely after you address some issue consistently that by the 5th, 6th maybe even 10th time they would get it. Then I had DD and have been humbled and amazed ever since :)

Something that's been helpful for me with both my kids (DD now 4 1/2 and DS almost 2 1/2) is the "5 steps" forwarded in Crystal Lutton's book, "Biblical Parenting." If the title of that book is a put-off please know that it's not a spanking book but a "grace-based parenting" book.

They go something like this:

First, ask for the behavior to stop with a simple rationale, ie: "You need to stop yourself from walking with the scissors, it's not safe." or "You need to stop walking with the scissors, it's not safe."

If behavior continues, get the child's attention whether that means being inches from their face, tapping them on the shoulder, etc and again tell them, "You need to stop yourself from walking with the scissors. Either sit down with them or put them on the table."

Third, give the choice, "Can you stop yourself with the scissors or do you need me to help you stop?"

Fourth, if child continues, "It looks like you're having trouble stopping yourself, here let me help you" and take the scissors away.

If a fit happens move to number Five the "from the back bear hug" where you come behind the child, bear hug their arms so they can't hurt anyone or his/herselfand speak calmly into their ear - identify what you're seeing if applicable, "You look really frustrated that you had to have the scissors taken away" and hold them until they calm down.

This has been really helpful for us the last four months or so. That said, I'm not forwarding that this is a cure-all. I began to realize that anyone who told me to "just do this..." probably had a more compliant child than I did :) Also praying for your kid regularly helps too. However you feel inclined to. I made a prayer card for my kids and wrote on it the characteristics that I see as specially them, the things that I hope for them and a scripture that I felt was meaningful and particular for each of them and I pray over them using that card almost every day. You could adapt that for your own belief system - I think it helps me remember the things that are really remarkable about them and view them through that lens a little more readily. Again, no panacea here but just a few things that have been helpful from a mom who has definitely thought at times that I wouldn't make it to the teenage years because the toddler/preschooler years were going to kill me :)

You're doing a good job, keep it up!!

[transylvania_mom]

Originally Posted by TheHusband 

If this is not a forum where all ideas may be discussed based on their merit, then it is not a forum at all. I have been respectful and helpful. If I am incorrect, please point out where, rather than simply say "you can't say that here." Unless something is defamatory, obscene, or degrading, it ought not be banned from a public forum. Simple saying that it is unacceptable to post something because you disagree with it is absurd.

what you are saying is defamatory, obscene and degrading to children, TheHusband. They are people too.

[TheHusband]

"what you are saying is defamatory, obscene and degrading to children, TheHusband. They are people too."

I can't think of a more ridiculous thing to say. Of course children are people too. They simply must be trained so that they don't grow up as "feral children," as the article I linked discussed. You almost certainly didn't bother to read it. If you had, it might have been a real eye-opener.

What I posted was not defamatory, obscene, or degrading. It is a form of child-rearing that has worked, and worked well, for millennia. Western society was very civil until people decided that it was unacceptable to punish children. Since that notion has become widespread, juvenile delinquence has skyrocketed, as has crime in general. I posted what I did because I believed that it would help the OP. If the forum refuses to accept an answer that history has proven to be the correct one, I am wasting my time.

One further comment to the "afraid of you" parent. If you discipline your child angrily, with or without a physical punishment, that can lead them to fear you. You must always discipline your child in such a way that it isn't venting or out of spite. They need to know that you love them, and that you are helping them. They won't like it, but you will not create fear, distrust, or any of the other negative emotions that would certainly be unhelpful.

[Polliwog]

A) That's wasn't an article. It's an editorial. And yes, I read the whole thing.

B) Not physically punishing children is not the same as not disciplining them/teaching them appropriate behavior/guiding them. It definitely doesn't mean that they will grow up to be bullies and vandalize property.

C) It's definitely possible to help toddlers learn appropriate behavior without hitting them. Thousands of toddler teachers do it every day.

[TheHusband]

Originally Posted by Polliwog 

A) That's wasn't an article. It's an editorial. And yes, I read the whole thing.
B) Not physically punishing children is not the same as not disciplining them/teaching them appropriate behavior/guiding them. It definitely doesn't mean that they will grow up to be bullies and vandalize property.
C) It's definitely possible to help toddlers learn appropriate behavior without hitting them. Thousands of toddler teachers do it every day.

Thank you for being willing to engage in a rational discussion. I appreciate it a lot. I also appreciate that you were willing to read the editorial (yes, it is, but most people don't deal in those kind of specificities.) Too many people aren't willing to even discuss a viewpoint different from their own.

It is certainly true that there are means to train children without the use of corporal punishment. It is my belief that in many cases these means are inferior in their effectiveness to corporal punishment, but in others they are more effective. For example, yesterday my son was not playing nicely. Putting him on a bench in a corner where he was not allowed to play at all was quite effective at removing his incentive to brutalize his sister. It was a much more unpleasant experience than any reasonable corporal punishment could have been. On the other hand, he's much older. He's over 3 1/2, and very verbal. That might be completely ineffective on a rebellious 2 1/2 year old who probably wouldn't even sit for it without being strapped down, and wouldn't necessarily associate the actions anyway. Simply taking his hand off the knobs will likely lead to a game of touch-and-remove that could go on for hours and might actually make disobedience fun. Slapping the fingers that grabbed the knob you JUST told him not to touch establishes clear cause-and-effect, which is crucial at that age. It also establishes that touching those knobs will be unpleasant, something you definitely want him to know, since it is a safety issue.

I really fail to understand how practices that were standard in child-rearing for millennia with good results have become so taboo. You'd think people would stick with what worked in the past, though it seems that increasingly that is something people deliberately avoid.....

[Polliwog]

I think that most people are able to distinguish between an editorial (i.e. someone's opinion) and a news article which is made up of facts that can be backed up.

Redirecting a young child to another activity when he wasn't playing nicely, would likely solve the problem as well. Without resorting to holding him down or hitting. I'm a foster parent and I have been a teacher of children from toddler years to elementary school. I've never been allowed to hit, or restrain, children in those situations and I'm perfectly able to teach children appropriate behavior.

[mamazee]

I question whether these techniques worked so well. So many people are in counselling or on medication for some problem or another, lots of people don't have good relationships with their parents, and as the OP said lots of people are in prison, and I'm sure I've read studies have shown that most of the people in prison were in families where there was physical discipline used. Where did I read that? Maybe someone else here read it as well and will remember.

[reezley]

To the OP - in your situation I would pick up the child and seriously-but-good-naturedly move him to the other room, while explaining "that's dangerous, only Mommy touches the stove."  This is a safety issue (the stove theoretically could be hot, too), so I think physically removing him is necessary if he doesn't back away himself.  Then keep child in other room with a distraction.  Repeat if necessary.  Get a cover for the stove knobs, if possible, too.  Yes, he is testing the rule.  And he will see you are serious about the rule.

Originally Posted by TheHusband 

 Slapping the fingers that grabbed the knob you JUST told him not to touch establishes clear cause-and-effect, which is crucial at that age. It also establishes that touching those knobs will be unpleasant, something you definitely want him to know, since it is a safety issue.

That is not "gentle discipline".  And, what, then, if your 3.5 year old slaps then next 2.5 year old he is playing with when he is not happy with what the toddler is doing? Do you consider that the right thing for the child to do?  Will you proudly say, "yes, wow, thank you for slapping that toddler and handling that like such a grown-up kid!"   Really??