what to do about willful defiance in 2 1/2 year old? - Page 4

[Honey693]

Originally Posted by coffeegirl 

So any kind of punishment is out? I re-read the forum guidelines just now (and I've read them before), and I thought that the one area where the rules are black and white is re: NOT hosting discussions about physical/corrporal punishments; not punishment in general. Am I wrong?

I was confused about that too.  I think banning discussions of non physical punishments is bad idea.

[LynnS6]

Originally Posted by Super~Single~Mama 

Yes, snacks are great, but unless I feed an entire meal on the way home, he's a mess while I make dinner.  There's not much that can be done, and part of it is that he wants my full attention (which he gets during and after dinner until bedtime - but I can't focus 100% on him until after dinner is made).

As for physically moving him, that doesn't work either.  Unless we go to an entirely different environment - from the kitchen to the park for example.  Moving him doesn't work, b/c unless we are in a different environment, b/c he just goes right back to the kitchen.  Or throws a huge fit (which are unavoidable at times, and I sympathize and then wait for it to pass). 

Sigh -- yeah, sometimes they're aren't any easy answers. Crockpots? A trained monkey to entertain him? Duct-taping him to the floor outside the kitchen? (Somehow I don't think that one will not pass the Gentle Discipline standards!)

[Callimom]

Originally Posted by pranava 

OP here!  Ditto this above exactly for my DS.  Clearly understands no, talks like a 4 year old, re-direction is futile, can follow complicated directions, but still lacks impulse control.  This is the kid who if I give him option A or option B  will choose option 3 for the fun of it.  The example I used of the stove was just one example, and I wasn't even cooking at the time. He was playing with the knobs because he was interested and they are fun to play with.  When I told him "No", he grabbed hold with all of his might with a look that said "Don't tell me what to do!"  If I had told him the stove was hot he would have said, "But it's not on right now Mommy"  He's already an expert arguer.  What I'm dealing with is Mr. INDEPENDENT!!!   This trait will serve him well in adulthood, but it is exhausting to deal with in a toddler.  I feel sorry for my poor Mom, because I was the same way. 

Thanks for all the advice!  It seems the common thread is - remain calm, repeat the rules, remove the child from the object, or remove the privilege from the child (as in, no playing outside if you can't stay out of the road) 

When I had toddlers (twins) I really had to shift from reactive to proactive parenting. It is absolutely exhausting - no doubt especially when you have one who is so adept at finding the limits. So if the kitchen is an issue, can you change the environment to help deal with the situation?  A play kitchen for him? A wall painted in chalkboard paint so he can create? A learning tower so he can help you and be somewhat safely contained, locks or different knobs on the stove, a line taped down in the kitchen that show the no-go zone? Can you shift your life a bit and do more meal prep work at night or on the weekend so that time isn't so harried, use your crockpot etc.

If he's very verbal, can you talk to him more? Thank him for following the kitchen rules, talk about being safe, have mom jobs (touching the stove) and kid jobs (working the salad spinner?).  In your kitchen example (and I know that is just one of likely many) perhaps he's trying to connect with you and have your full attention at a very challenging time in your day.

The more proactive things you can do avoid the power struggles, the easier in the long run it will be on you.

hth

Karen

[Callimom]

Originally Posted by Honey693 

I was confused about that too.  I think banning discussions of non physical punishments is bad idea.

There is a difference between discipline which helps the child learn to do better and punishment which often serves the parents needs, versus the childrens.

[Honey693]

Originally Posted by Karenwith4 

There is a difference between discipline which helps the child learn to do better and punishment which often serves the parents needs, versus the childrens.

But sometimes punishment (go to your room/timeout) is going to help mommy not lose her shit when special snowflake has dumped a bag of flour on the floor in the middle of dinner prep.  I firmly believe punishment can have a place in raising a child.  

[LynnS6]

Originally Posted by Karenwith4 

There is a difference between discipline which helps the child learn to do better and punishment which often serves the parents needs, versus the childrens.

Yes, I would also say there's a difference between 'consequences' and 'punishment'. Punishment is meant to "make a child pay" or as my Merriam Webster describes it: "suffering, pain, or loss that serves as retribution". Punishment isn't intended to teach, it's intended to get back for something done.

Consequences can help a child learn, even if they're unpleasant. Forget to empty out your lunch bag on the Friday before spring break? Guess who's cleaning up the moldy 1/2 sandwich, 1/2 apple and stale water from the lunch bag. (Hint, it's not mom.) Can't stop touching the oven? Then mom may have to put up a gate to keep you safe (and out of the kitchen), even if you tantrum.

[wytchywoman]

Originally Posted by Honey693 

But sometimes punishment (go to your room/timeout) is going to help mommy not lose her shit when special snowflake has dumped a bag of flour on the floor in the middle of dinner prep.  I firmly believe punishment can have a place in raising a child.  

You made me chuckle with your example. Someone else mentioned this as well. You can most certainly consequence that behavior, as all behaviors come with consequences. I know that time out is not necessarily considered gentle discipline by some place, but I think in this case it is way more gentle than me blowing my stack. I think we are getting hung up on semantics though. You use the word punishment and what i really hear you saying is consequence. Even gentle parenting acknowledges that consequences are a big part of learning how to control your own behavior.
 

[LynnS6]

Originally Posted by Honey693 

But sometimes punishment (go to your room/timeout) is going to help mommy not lose her shit when special snowflake has dumped a bag of flour on the floor in the middle of dinner prep.  I firmly believe punishment can have a place in raising a child.  

I agree that I think we're talking semantics here. There's a difference between "go to your room before mom's completely loses it on you!" and "making the child pay" (punishment).  Punishment would be saying "Ok that's it. No TV for 2 days because you dumped the flour on the floor." It's not related to the 'crime' and it's not teaching the child a skills.

When my kids were toddlers I plopped them in their rooms more than once to keep me sane and them safe. I've gone to my room in a huff to cool off. I've gone for a walk around the block to cool off (only when dh was home).  Enforcing separation so one party can cool off is a good skill to learn, IMO. Our son now goes off to his room in a huff when he's angry. (Yes, he slams the door. No, I don't make a big deal of it.) The last time he did this, he also threw all the blankets and stuffed animals off the bed, and knocked over his laundry bag. Consequence? He got to clean up the mess. Punishment would have been telling him he couldn't play on the Wii because he had a tantrum. (He's 10, it was still a tantrum.)

[coffeegirl]

I understand the semantics of discipline vs. punishment.

I think that banning discussion of any kind of punishment as a part of discipline, period, is limiting, nit-picky, and pointless (because people are just going to keep saying the same things; just defining them differently b/c of the rules). It was brought up because when the mod intervened in this thread, she said that talk of punishment wasn't allowed here. Which is contrary to how MDC has defined the Gentle Discipline forum for years now. Hence the questions about it.

I'm hoping it was a typo or something like that.

[Callimom]

Originally Posted by coffeegirl 

I understand the semantics of discipline vs. punishment.

I think that banning discussion of any kind of punishment as a part of discipline, period, is limiting, nit-picky, and pointless (because people are just going to keep saying the same things; just defining them differently b/c of the rules). It was brought up because when the mod intervened in this thread, she said that talk of punishment wasn't allowed here. Which is contrary to how MDC has defined the Gentle Discipline forum for years now. Hence the questions about it.

I'm hoping it was a typo or something like that.

I think that the distinction between punishment and discipline is a valuable in exactly these sorts of conversation where posters like TheHusband (I wonder if he calls his wife TheWife) need a clear line drawn about what sorts of approaches are viewed as respectful and beneficial by this community and which ones aren't.

Sending a child to their room for hours and missing meals so the parent doesn't have to deal is punishment. Providing a bit of breathing room for everyone to get a grip and some perspective is a completely different ball of wax and is a good strategy for helping kids learn to manage their own emotions and reactions. Yes  it is a spectrum but no where on that spectrum is spanking acceptable. TheHusband couldn't comprehend that without that semantic distinction.

[hildare]

ignoring the punishment discussion as we have all hashed that out a few times before already... the same folks, too, (me included).

i know this isn't an option for everybody, of course, but i am STRONGLY of the opinion that if there are two adults in a household, there need to be two adults involved in preparing supper, one to entertain the kid and one to cook the food.  i think that perhaps more parents need to discipline their partners.  ;)

kidding about that part, but i personally have NEVER had a successful food-preparation experience if the kid is left to her own devices.  attention seeking behavior begins almost immediately.

[angomama]

Thank you for this idea! This is not my spiritual practice, and I really appreciate how well you phrased it. I LOVE the idea of making a card with the special traits of my kids and what I see in them and my intention of us to be together and an inspiring piece of writing! Thank you so much!

I am struggling with an aggressive 2.9 yr old and want to nip it in the bud! (my younger son is 4.5 months)

Thanks again!

:)