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raising grandchild hiv positive & mother was on pot... - Page 2

post #21 of 62

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post #22 of 62

 

 

Quote:
Obviously being unkind to the mother wouldn't be helpful to anyone, but why should she have to "support their decision"? What does that even mean? 

 

 

IMO - it mean when you don't--- you are showing disrespect 

 

the "choice" is not the OP to make and not being "supportive" of the choice the GF makes shows you do not agree and you risk (strongly) that you will cause serious relationship problems (rift- alienation) between the OP and her son not to mention the GF

 

I'm sure all the negative things the OP wrote about the GF could easily be reversed and said about the OP if the GF had written it---the OP has a lot to loose her and not just a first grandchild

 

you read time after time (here) about new parents who have serious "issues" with in-laws and they end up out of the child's life ---ALL because the do not support the decisions the parents make---really not any different-IMO

 

choice is not the grandmother's in this case or if a child is here later on

 

ETA -

 

Quote:
 Heck, at 18 the mother's decision-making faculties aren't fully developed.

the opposite can also be said - we put the "young" mother be it 18 or 16 or what every "young age" you want to say, who has the child and who questions and who also does not have a medicated birth, who BF, who is non-circ, delayed or non-vac, etc.,  as an intelligent super woman yet someone who is "young" (for what ever reason or several reasons) chooses to abort becomes a non-correct decision maker- what crazy irony???


Edited by serenbat - 10/2/11 at 11:20am
post #23 of 62

serenbat: Sorry, but I don't get what you're saying. I never said the "choice" was the OP's.

 

Quote:
the opposite can also be said - we put the "young" mother be it 18 or 16 or what every "young age" you want to say, who has the child and who questions and who also does not have a medicated birth, who BF, who is non-circ, delayed or non-vac, etc.,  as an intelligent super woman yet someone who is "young" (for what ever reason or several reasons) chooses to abort becomes a non-correct decision maker- what crazy irony???

That wasn't what I said (although actually, being pro-life, I agree with it, and how exactly is it ironic to feel that making a decision you believe is morally wrong is, well, morally wrong, and therefore "non-correct"; whereas making parenting decisions based on good science in a culture which largely denies that science is pretty awesome? But anyhoo). I'm objecting to the idea that surrounding someone - anyone, but particularly someone whose decision-making faculties aren't entirely up and running yet - only with approving silence or yes-men on an issue is the only ethical approach; and that disagreeing with her actions is impinging upon her freedom of choice. There seems to be a feeling out there that a choice is only uncoerced if nobody else's arguments or thoughts have any bearing on the result; but that doesn't seem logical to me. Marrying DH was my choice, but that doesn't mean I didn't take my parents' opinion of him into consideration; or that their having and expressing an opinion on the matter was somehow a breach of common decency. (Perhaps a better analogy: one of my sisters ended up marrying someone my parents didn't entirely approve of, and because she was secure in her decision, they didn't change her decision; but they did give her the opportunity to consider all sides of the question. Of course, they had a fairly good relationship, whereas I don't know what the OP's relationship with the mother is like, which would obviously change what it's appropriate for her to say.)

post #24 of 62



NM - I know better than to talk abortion at all...

post #25 of 62

The OP has not uttered one thing positive that she even likes about the GF in any of her posts---personally, I would never take a person's (who felt like that about me) opinion into account for anything.  

post #26 of 62
Uh... I think the OP is another Woman, who came to other Women for advice. I don't think we should be short changing her because we have been able to pick apart her post, note that we have different beliefs then write her off. That's pretty sad if that's how this is going to work.

We should be only offering advice on how she can positively be part of the lives of her son, his girlfriend and the potential child. How she can help without stepping on toes. She's still a mother and she still feels like she needs to help her child. What in the name of Judas is wrong with that? You're going to turn off the moment your child turns 18 and not even think to worry about him/her and their choices?
post #27 of 62
OP, we haven't heard back. How is everything going?
post #28 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smokering View Post

 

>Obviously being unkind to the mother wouldn't be helpful to anyone, but why should she have to "support their decision"?


I think the question is more about how to build a solid relationship with her son and his girlfriend.

The Oper's actions and words at this time could scar that relationship beyond repair. No matter how one feels about abortion, destroying the relation with one's child is something most parents want to avoid.

I think that some pro-life people have a hard time understanding exactly how hurtful it is to a person in crisis to make the needs of a fetus more important than the needs of the breathing human being standing in front of them.
post #29 of 62

See, I don't see how "solid relationship" equals "supporting a decision one thinks is wrong". Surely it's not much of a relationship if its success is built on one person hiding what she feels, and essentially lying to the other in order to not rock the boat? That sounds very dysfunctional to me. A good relationship should be able to weather "I love you, but I think what you're doing is wrong and it makes me sad". The OP can still be supportive of her son (or his girlfriend) as people without supporting her decision to abort.

 

Quote:
I think that some pro-life people have a hard time understanding exactly how hurtful it is to a person in crisis to make the needs of a fetus more important than the needs of the breathing human being standing in front of them.

The OP seems pretty aware of it, given post 6; but I think that statement belies a lack of understanding of the pro-life position. To someone who believes the fetus is a person, he or she IS a "human being standing in front of them" (not a breathing one, technically, but a living one); and his/her "needs" are rather more basic and urgent: simply life. No, the fetus won't get hurt feelings if it's aborted, but it will get, you know, killed; so prioritising the person who's more powerless and has more to lose (everything, in fact) hardly makes someone a callous monster. I don't think I can get more explicit without getting into a full-on abortion debate, which I assume is still against the UA (and kinda OT to the original topic, anyway - sorry, OP); but I really hate the whole "pro-lifers are mean" angle. Apart from the odd sadistic individual, pro-lifers consider hurt feelings collateral damage for a higher purpose; just as pro-choicers consider the life of fetuses collateral damage for a higher purpose. I think anyone with any empathy and imagination - regardless of her own position on the issue - can recognise that their are caring people with good intentions on both sides of the debate.

post #30 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smokering View Post

See, I don't see how "solid relationship" equals "supporting a decision one thinks is wrong". Surely it's not much of a relationship if its success is built on one person hiding what she feels, and essentially lying to the other in order to not rock the boat? That sounds very dysfunctional to me. A good relationship should be able to weather "I love you, but I think what you're doing is wrong and it makes me sad". The OP can still be supportive of her son (or his girlfriend) as people without supporting her decision to abort.

 

The OP seems pretty aware of it, given post 6; but I think that statement belies a lack of understanding of the pro-life position. To someone who believes the fetus is a person, he or she IS a "human being standing in front of them" (not a breathing one, technically, but a living one); and his/her "needs" are rather more basic and urgent: simply life. No, the fetus won't get hurt feelings if it's aborted, but it will get, you know, killed; so prioritising the person who's more powerless and has more to lose (everything, in fact) hardly makes someone a callous monster. I don't think I can get more explicit without getting into a full-on abortion debate, which I assume is still against the UA (and kinda OT to the original topic, anyway - sorry, OP); but I really hate the whole "pro-lifers are mean" angle. Apart from the odd sadistic individual, pro-lifers consider hurt feelings collateral damage for a higher purpose; just as pro-choicers consider the life of fetuses collateral damage for a higher purpose. I think anyone with any empathy and imagination - regardless of her own position on the issue - can recognise that their are caring people with good intentions on both sides of the debate.


I lean towards agreeing with the bolded. I also think cementing a good relationship with the gf (possible future DiL, etc) is very important. Part of forming that bond would be not alienating her. I get the sense that the OP and the son's gf are presumably not at the level of being comfortable enough in their affection for each other to say, "I love you, but..." in a situation like this. You kwim? How one definres "support" comes into play as well. I guess this just raises more questions than answers them, but it's what I've been thinking about re: this thread. How is it possible to, in practical language, "support" someone who is doing something that you strongly feel is wrong?
post #31 of 62

 

 

Quote:
The OP can still be supportive of her son (or his girlfriend) as people without supporting her decision to abort.

 

this can be true but it doesn't come across that the OP is even close this place

post #32 of 62

My oldest son is only a few years younger than yours, and this sort of situation is my worst nightmare.  We talk almost daily about how to handle relationships as he is entering high school and facing all new challenges.  I am wondering how your relationship is with your son?  If it were me, and if I did not have a very solid relationship with the gf before this crisis, I might tend to discuss things more with my son than try to build a relationship with the gf in a crisis.  Also, instead of offering specific suggestions based on what you think they are worried about, I would ask what their concerns and fears are about raising a child, and make the point that I would do anything in my power to ease those difficulties and make keeping the baby as do-able an option as possible.  One thing that sends up huge red flags in this situation is that the gf already has emotional challenges.  The trauma of an abortion coupled with these challenges could end up being more than this young lady can cope with.  Does she have a counselor?  

 

My prayers are with you and everyone involved.  

post #33 of 62
" Heck, at 18 the mother's decision-making faculties aren't fully developed."



This could also be a great reason NOT to have a child at 18. If a person isnt developed enough to be making a decision about abortion, then how on earth can you assume they are developed enough to have a child?
post #34 of 62

 If the mother is so mentally fragile that she'll have some kind of meltdown at the realisation her boyfriend's mother is pro-life, she shouldn't be making a decision as momentous as whether or not to terminate. The OP obviously recognises that the mother has a legal right to terminate, but that does not mean she (the OP) is somehow obliged to believe that it is a moral choice, or to pretend that she does.

 

Then WHO should make this decision?

 

I'm sorry but if the Gf is so mentally fragile she shoudlnt be raising a child.

 

I dont understand why anyone gets to choose if this is a moral choice for another person. Or why this person even gets a say or an opinion about someone elses pregnancy.

 

I am more intrested on why her son has not been mentioned in more then passing. This is his child . He needs to step up and either be ready to financially support this child or emotionally support his Ex if she chooses to abort. Then he needs to get an HIV test done every 6months and take charge of his life.

 

 

 

post #35 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by beenmum View Post

 >I dont understand why anyone gets to choose if this is a moral choice for another person.

 

 

 



Exactly. Her body, her choice.
post #36 of 62

 

Quote:
This could also be a great reason NOT to have a child at 18. If a person isnt developed enough to be making a decision about abortion, then how on earth can you assume they are developed enough to have a child?

Which is why her getting both sides of the issue is a good idea. Nothing can be done about the fact that she's 18, obviously.

 

Quote:
I dont understand why anyone gets to choose if this is a moral choice for another person.

That... is one of the weirdest statements I've ever read. Nobody "chooses" if something is a moral choice; people simply believe something is a moral choice, or not. Are you telling me you've never looked at anyone else's actions and judged them to be wrong because of the harm they inflict on someone else? Really? Child molesters, serial killers, adulterers, Stalin? If your moral code holds that killing unborn babies is wrong, then OF COURSE you will view it as an immoral choice in nearly all circumstances. "Her body, her choice" has absolutely nothing to do with that, any more than it applies to any other moral question. If your daughter lies to you, do you say "Oh well, her tongue, her choice"? If your husband cheats on you, do you say "Ach, his penis, his choice"?

 

Again, this is nothing to do with the legality of abortion. Everybody here, including the OP, recognises that the mother has a LEGAL right to abort. My ONLY point is that just because something is legal does not mean one is obliged to believe it is moral, or pretend to. I was responding to the many posters who implied that the OP had some kind of moral imperative to "support" a decision which, to judge from her posts, she believes would result in the needless slaughter of her grandkid. I don't think she does. What her reaction should be depends very largely on the kind of relationship she has with her son and his girlfriend; but if they're close enough to be discussing it and asking her opinion, I do NOT believe she should have to hide her sorrow and horror under a pasted-on smile of "Of course, dear, whatever you like". I would have thought MDCers, of all people, would be able to grasp that.

post #37 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smokering View Post
if they're close enough to be discussing it and asking her opinion, I do NOT believe she should have to hide her sorrow and horror under a pasted-on smile of "Of course, dear, whatever you like". I would have thought MDCers, of all people, would be able to grasp that.


But they are past that point. The OPer has already emphatically told them what she thinks. The OPer made it clear to them that she is willing to take on the raising of this child, who she believes will be completely screwed up.

 

The question was about what to do AFTER that. After, as a parent, you've made it abundantly clear what you think of a particular choice, then what? 

 

Although few of us will find ourselves in this exact same scenario, most of us will eventually have our adult children make choices we disagree with. Once we've said our piece and had our wonderful advice ignored, then what?

post #38 of 62

 

Quote:

The question was about what to do AFTER that. After, as a parent, you've made it abundantly clear what you think of a particular choice, then what?

 

Although few of us will find ourselves in this exact same scenario, most of us will eventually have our adult children make choices we disagree with. Once we've said our piece and had our wonderful advice ignored, then what?

Depends on how strongly we feel about the choice and the nature of our relationship with our kids, I guess. I can think of circumstances in which I'd say "ehh, fait accompli, no big deal", and circumstances in which I'd have to say "I can't talk about this with you, and I need my space from you for a while". I don't think reconciliation is ever impossible - heck, I have a relative by marriage who killed two of his family members (he was mentally ill), and the remaining one (his dad) visited him in prison and came to his wedding and has been fairly supportive of him the whole way through. But there will be times when people will need to cut off contact for a while, or assert a strict "please do not bring this up to me" rule, for their own sanity. I imagine some people on this thread might feel that way if their child grew up and joined a pro-life group, for instance. :p

post #39 of 62

I think respectfully asking for space  when, as a parent, you find you are past the point where you can be constructively supportive, is a good thing to know how to do. Practicing non judging, unconditional love is a lifetime work in progress for most people, and I think everyone has limits at which point complete acceptance becomes too difficult.  It is so much better to ask for space than to say or do something hurtful because you are coming from a place of pain.  As an adult, I had one parent (my father) who respectfully asked for space (different moral issue in question, but the principle applies) and one who didn't recognize her limit and went too far in what she said.  It took a cross country move, nearly four years and me having a child before we were ready to be in the same room again.  I personally think it's appropriate that the OP stated her opinion of the abortion and that she let them know how she was willing to support them.  I think it's OK that she may have a limit point and might not be able to be completely openly supportive.  What is not OK is burying that feeling and not knowing when to step back and take a break and damage her relationship with her son, whom she clearly loves.  This situation is definitely tough, I hope and pray I will not have to deal with such a situation, and I don't think it is easy or cut and dry to be supportive or non judging.  My wishes and prayers are with the OP that she can find some place of peace regardless of the final decision made by her son and his GF.  I think we're past the two days for the appointment and I hope you and your son and his GF are coping.

post #40 of 62

uh, I think I'm going to agree with Farmer on this one.  She stated how she felt.  She can't change the way she initially reacted.  Those are ideals and emotions that are hard to change.  She offered them support.  Her intentions were good.  She just wants to help and she probably feels so out of control with what is going on.  It's honestly better to voice your opinion than the keep your mouth shut sometimes.  Especially if you're a parent.  It's pretty hard to shut that part of you off. 

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