How long to adjust to daycare? Daycare provider is concerned. Need advice please.

[northerngirl]

Dd2, almost 19 months, recently started going to a small home daycare (4 kids max, including the dcp 16 month old) for 21 hours a week. We started out slow working up to the 21 hours over 3 days. She has been at this schedule since August 29th. I thought things were going good and dcp said she was having good days. Then on the 14th of this month while at daycare, her finger was cut on the edge of the daycare lady's rabbit cage and I had to bring her to Urgent Care for 3 stitches. It was a little traumatic for her and she was crying hysterically. By the time I got there she had calmed down and seemed ok. The stitches went amazingly well and she didn't make a peep, the dr was very surprised.

She went to daycare the next day and was fine. Then the next day, Friday, things started. She has become very whiney and clingy and has been taking 4 hour naps. The dcp says she doesn't want to interact with the kids and just wants to be held. She even put her in a time out bc she hit one of the other kids with a rhythm stick (not intentional I'm sure). She says that she acts very tired and the other day put her down for a nap at 9:30am?? (Dd isn't the best sleeper, but she seems ok the days she not at daycare)

That same day she called me at work because dd wouldn't stop crying and she was super clingy.

Dd is not very verbal yet and has a few words and a few signs. The dcp seems frustrated that she cannot communicate with dd to figure out what she needs. Her child (who is at the daycare too), who is younger than dd has many many words and the other kids who are 2 can talk too. So dd is the only one who isn't talking.

Is this still the adjustment period or why have things changed? Was is the finger incident? How can I improve things?

When I asked dcp today if we should do shorter days or if I should come there again and be there with dd like we did in the beginning, and all she said was she didn't know. Should she know? This is our first daycare experience at this age. She said we should take it 1 day at a time. She also said that she is spreading herself real thin when dd is acting like that and the other kids (2 or 3) are needing her attention too. I just thought she would have ideas since she is the dcp?

Needing advice please :)

[Skippy918]

I would bring her back to the doctor to make sure her finger is not infected.  To me, it sounds like she's not feeling well especially if she was acting okay before the finger incident..  I know when my son is not feeling well, he's super clingy and whiney. 

[northerngirl]

Originally Posted by Skippy918 

I would bring her back to the doctor to make sure her finger is not infected.  To me, it sounds like she's not feeling well especially if she was acting okay before the finger incident..  I know when my son is not feeling well, he's super clingy and whiney. 

She just got her stitches out on Sunday morning and the nurse said it looked really good. She doesn't have any infection red flags (fever, redness, oozing). The skin is pulled together and is scabbing over now. We are still keeping a bandaid on it during the day.

I was actually thinking it was something to do with the emotional trauma of it all. Perhaps she doesn't feel safe? or associates the pain with being there? Is she too young for that to happen, I have no idea.

[Super~Single~Mama]

I think the daycare provider has too high of expectations.  My ds was talking alot at 19mo, but he hardly ever said a word at daycare (then by 21mo he wouldn't STOP talking at daycare), and most 19mo babies don't talk very much, or at least aren't super capable of expressing everything they need.

I would ask your daycare provider to be patient with her as she adjusts.  Give it more time for sure.

[northerngirl]

Originally Posted by Super~Single~Mama 

I think the daycare provider has too high of expectations.  My ds was talking alot at 19mo, but he hardly ever said a word at daycare (then by 21mo he wouldn't STOP talking at daycare), and most 19mo babies don't talk very much, or at least aren't super capable of expressing everything they need.

I would ask your daycare provider to be patient with her as she adjusts.  Give it more time for sure.

I agree. Her daughter is quite the talker at 17 months, then there are two 2 year olds that can talk as well. I didn't know being able to talk was a requirement for daycare. She does know a few signs (more, eat, milk). But dcp is having a problem communicating with her or a problem trying to figure out what is wrong when she is upset.

She also has a problem with dd not being on their schedule. She likes to graze on snacks and they have snack time. Dd also ends up taking a nap earlier than the others. Which is a problem when the others are ready for lunch or want to go outside.

A month of going to dc 3x/week is enough to adjust?
 

[LynnS6]

I think you have to start the 'adjustment clock' over again from the time she cut her finger. She was clearly affected by that incident, and it's unfair to expect her to be able to process that quickly. The other thing is that she's going part time (is the 21 hours 3x a week?) If that's the case, it will take her longer to adjust. I know because my kids went 3x a week. I'd try to avoid 2x a week, because that's really really hard on the child.

At the same time, I see a couple of red flags with your daycare provider:

1. She had a rabbit cage that could cut a child severely enough to need stitches. How safe is the rest of the house?

2. She doesn't seem to be very up on child development -- a 19 month old with a few words is pretty normal. I'd expect a vocabulary spurt in the next 2-3 months, but it's a pretty typical toddler.

3. She doesn't seem to have strategies for knowing how to deal with one needy child and care for 3 other children.

4. I don't like the age ranges she's got in her daycare. She's got 4 children under 3. While that's an OK ratio for a daycare, her job is going to be tough for a while. If even one of those children were over 3 or 4, she'd have an easier time managing.

5. She doesn't seem to have a routine naptime for everyone. Is she putting your dd to bed because she can't deal with the whining?

One of the reasons I'm a fan of a good center (and there are some really lousy ones out there, I'll admit) is that they have more staff so if one child is being needy, they can put someone with that child for a while. Dd started daycare at 15 months, and they had one little girl in her class who was really clingy for the first 3-4 weeks. The first few days, the staff held her up with her head near their shoulders because that's what they were used to. When that started to grate on their hearing, the held her more down by their hips. The next week, they'd sit for a bit with for long periods, and get up occasionally (leaving her there because she wasn't willing to walk/crawl) and then come back after a brief time. The third week they were able to leave her for longer periods and by the 4th week, they were able to get her more engaged. She did cry a lot more than some of the other kids, but she was fine. And my dd was always ready to tell them 'baby crying' when she started to cry. (My dd was one of the insanely verbal ones. My ds, on the other hand, barely spoke to anyone outside the family until he was 4.)

I guess my question is: Is this the RIGHT daycare provider for your daughter?

[Super~Single~Mama]

Originally Posted by northerngirl 

I agree. Her daughter is quite the talker at 17 months, then there are two 2 year olds that can talk as well. I didn't know being able to talk was a requirement for daycare. She does know a few signs (more, eat, milk). But dcp is having a problem communicating with her or a problem trying to figure out what is wrong when she is upset.

She also has a problem with dd not being on their schedule. She likes to graze on snacks and they have snack time. Dd also ends up taking a nap earlier than the others. Which is a problem when the others are ready for lunch or want to go outside.

A month of going to dc 3x/week is enough to adjust?
 

My ds has been in 2 different daycares, and he was in full time - M-F 8-6.  It took him a month to adjust.  With 3x per week, the children never really get into the schedule, or routine, of daycare.  It might help if you were to mimic the daycare routine at home on the days that she's at home with you.

[northerngirl]

Originally Posted by LynnS6 

I think you have to start the 'adjustment clock' over again from the time she cut her finger. She was clearly affected by that incident, and it's unfair to expect her to be able to process that quickly. The other thing is that she's going part time (is the 21 hours 3x a week?) If that's the case, it will take her longer to adjust. I know because my kids went 3x a week. I'd try to avoid 2x a week, because that's really really hard on the child.

At the same time, I see a couple of red flags with your daycare provider:

1. She had a rabbit cage that could cut a child severely enough to need stitches. How safe is the rest of the house?

2. She doesn't seem to be very up on child development -- a 19 month old with a few words is pretty normal. I'd expect a vocabulary spurt in the next 2-3 months, but it's a pretty typical toddler.

3. She doesn't seem to have strategies for knowing how to deal with one needy child and care for 3 other children.

4. I don't like the age ranges she's got in her daycare. She's got 4 children under 3. While that's an OK ratio for a daycare, her job is going to be tough for a while. If even one of those children were over 3 or 4, she'd have an easier time managing.

5. She doesn't seem to have a routine naptime for everyone. Is she putting your dd to bed because she can't deal with the whining?

One of the reasons I'm a fan of a good center (and there are some really lousy ones out there, I'll admit) is that they have more staff so if one child is being needy, they can put someone with that child for a while. Dd started daycare at 15 months, and they had one little girl in her class who was really clingy for the first 3-4 weeks. The first few days, the staff held her up with her head near their shoulders because that's what they were used to. When that started to grate on their hearing, the held her more down by their hips. The next week, they'd sit for a bit with for long periods, and get up occasionally (leaving her there because she wasn't willing to walk/crawl) and then come back after a brief time. The third week they were able to leave her for longer periods and by the 4th week, they were able to get her more engaged. She did cry a lot more than some of the other kids, but she was fine. And my dd was always ready to tell them 'baby crying' when she started to cry. (My dd was one of the insanely verbal ones. My ds, on the other hand, barely spoke to anyone outside the family until he was 4.)

I guess my question is: Is this the RIGHT daycare provider for your daughter?

1. Yes, she had about 5? rabbit cages that were out in her yard. She use to show rabbits when she lived in a different city. I guess I was never concerned with the cages, but the actual rabbits.

Now if one of the rabbits were to have bitten her, I don't think we would have went back there. That same day she put all of the cages into her large dog kennel area. She was visibly shaken by the incident and was in tears when I arrived. Little fingers go everywhere and I understand that and I am not holding that against her. Luckily we have insurance and that something worse didn't happen.

2. She has an early childhood development bachelors degree. And is a certified teacher. I don't remember exactly, but dd1 didn't really start talking until after 2.

3. Yes, I know, right? In the beginning she said that she was excited to have them so close in age. She was previously having a hard time with a 4? year old  since she seemed bored with the little kids. She has since went off to preschool.

When I asked her if I should come there like I did in the beginning and stay for a while or if we should do shorter days, she said "I don't know". Am I missing something her or is she trying to give us the boot?

4. I think that the 2 year olds (not sure if they're 2.5 or just 2 or what) kinda do their own thing and are potty trained and aren't as needy (is she really needy?) as dd. I think it makes it harder that her own daughter is there. I am sure that if she is holding dd for too long then the daughter fusses bc she wants to be held too.

5. I guess she did have a pretty routine nap time that started at 1:30 before we went there. Then I think she moved lunch and nap time up so it was around 12:30? I think. This was because of dd. Then dd is tired at 9:30 the one day? She was fine in the morning when she woke up and was at home. Yes, she does get up to nurse a lot during the night and is sometimes a restless sleeper.

But maybe you are right that she doesn't want to deal with the whining. Should I ask her straight up about that? When I asked her about if dd cried when she put her down for naps in the pack and play, she said she never cries. At home there is usually a little crying or whining involved.

I thought that this was a good match for us. Low numbers and similar family values/views. She is very nice and we do chat about other things like breastfeeding, birthing, food. She said she is Waldorf based, but I am not so sure about that. I am not versed in Waldorf teachings but I have something in mind which doesn't really match.

She doesn't advertise her daycare but finds new families through word of mouth. She is a part of the local mothers circle and that is how I found her.

Dh likes her and her husband and thinks it is a good fit and that we should give it some time. But then also says to look at other options, which would be a nanny. He's just saying that bc that's what I want to hear I am assuming.

[porcelina]

If nanny is an option for you financialy, I'd look into it, but only because developmentally, that is the best care option for that age.

My DS had a traumatic experience at day care when he was 24 months, and he would scream, shake and cry about going back. In his case, he contracted a virus that prevented him from walking. When i went to pick him up from his first day at day care, he couldnt walk. I did not realize it until after I got home though, since I was carrying him anyway. Turned out to be coincidence, but I think he associated it with the day care. He was home with me until he got better, which just made the transition back all that much harder. After only a week or two of hearing him genuinely scream, shake, and cry, I pulled him. We found a great situation where he stayed with a stay at home mom with one child who wanted a companion for her DD and to make some extra money.

It didnt sound like she expects your DD to be talking, but rather that she is genuinely frustrated about not being able to meet her needs. I can see how she wouldn't know what would be best to proceed since it is such an unusual circumstance.

Sounds like you still think DCP is a good match. Is it possible to make the care situation 3 consecutive days? Another option would be to add a 4th or even 5th day, just until she gets onto the routine. PP are right about the inconsistency of just 3 days, esp when MWF.

For your part, you can work on some play therapy. Act out what happened with your DD. A few times, let her be the doctor, or DCP. If she's not ready for that level of play, try doing it with dolls. Once she can work through the trauma, she will be more likely to adjust.

Good luck!

[Aubergine68]

I have been a dcp for a decade now and these are suggestions that came immediately to my mind as well.

Originally Posted by porcelina 
Sounds like you still think DCP is a good match. Is it possible to make the care situation 3 consecutive days? Another option would be to add a 4th or even 5th day, just until she gets onto the routine. PP are right about the inconsistency of just 3 days, esp when MWF.

For your part, you can work on some play therapy. Act out what happened with your DD. A few times, let her be the doctor, or DCP. If she's not ready for that level of play, try doing it with dolls. Once she can work through the trauma, she will be more likely to adjust.

Good luck!

[northerngirl]

I guess we could afford a nanny but things would be tight. We wouldn't be able to pay really well, but ok I guess. Then there's the whole finding of the right person to come into my home....

It makes sense that the mwf may not be good. I have not asked about adding additional days, but when we interviewed she said she had a pt opening.

I am not sure how the play therapy would work with her. She understands a lot, but I don't know if she has the attention span?

 

 

Dcp sent me an email today....

 

 

How is Lola doing today?  I have been thinking about her a lot. Today was a good day to be outside.  I noticed the kids seemed calmer and the "flow" much more manageable.  I think the stress Lola has been experiencing has affected the other kids.  Brita has been much calmer and less clingy.  I am thinking hard about some things since we spoke yesterday.  First of all, I care about Lola.  I have been very concerned about her.  I hope you know how much I like and respect you and Ryan too.  I will just list some ideas and observances about what I know is occurring here at our house.  I'm sure you are aware of many of these):

 

1) Lola is gradually learning how to be social and interact with other children.  She is very observant and watchful and reactive.  When she plays, it is usually alone or hanging back from the group.  She seems a bit intimidated by them... or perhaps overwhelmed.

 

2)  She is learning how to adjust to being without Mama, especially. She is very securely attached and loves you both so much.  She finds me "safe" and seems to like me and demand my attention.  I am feeling it is an insecure attachment lately, due to her anxiety and stress that I am unable to calm.  She has seemed very stressed and anxious, period.  If she becomes upset, only holding her, or time in her bed soothes her.  She become angry when put down and it creates a "ripple effect"  of picking up and putting down... getting worse each time.  These periods escalate her anger and anxiety and creates the stress for everybody.  Food/milk/books/toys soothe her only temporarily, or she refuses any diversion altogether- simply wanting me, and that physical, one-on-one attention.

 

3) Other issues like the teething, sleep schedule, and diet are factors in her behavior.  These create disturbances in her mood of course.  I really feel concerned about her diet.  She never eats much here, of the food you bring, other than blueberries. 3 oz bottles are a snack if she takes them.  She seems to get little protein to sustain her throughout the day.  (Food sensitivities are very tricky and she needs to stay healthy, and not get an upset tummy. You know best.)

 

4)  Her schedule and food needs are tricky to manage.  There is no set time for anything- it is a guessing game of when and what to give her and do.  It's challenging to flow the music/art/snack/potty/outdoor/free play times during the morning for the group.  Sometimes I'm dealing with potty accidents and no art projects and outbursts from the other kids.

 

5) Lola likes being outside, reading books, noisy toys, and music when she is in the mood to play.  She plays alone, and watches the others from a distance.

 

6)  Her verbal communication is not there yet.  I think she wants to speak but it's like the words are caught in her throat.  She tries, but it's a lot of MMMMMM and EHHHHHH and gesturing.  She signs a little, but I have difficulty communicating her needs with her.  At 19 mo. she is at a very different level than when she was a baby.  I'm sure it gets frustrating for her.

 

 

I am curious to see how the next two days will go this week.  I am honestly wondering if she is ready for a childcare experience.  As soon as you said your other option would be getting a nanny- that made me realize how she could benefit from that level of care.  As a former nanny, I can say it is the very best arrangement for babies and toddlers needing care (other than parents or grandparents).  I was definitely able to spend more time and energy on one or two children when I nannied.  Plus, now I have my own child 24/7- lots of time and energy there, so things are much different now!

 

I am not certain at this point what decision should be made.  It seems to be joint decision in some ways.  I would be happy to care for Lola if she adjusts to the childcare setting I can offer, and could be on a more predictable schedule or flow.  In many ways, it seems she needs to "change" to be happy here.  I do not want her to be miserable or not have her needs met- no child deserves that.  In many ways it makes sense for her to have a nanny until she could be "ready" to socialize and work out peer behaviors and pecking orders.  The kids work out their own relationships too- that is up to them.

 

It could be challenging to find the right person you could trust and build a close relationship with.  I think word of mouth or Circles of the city could be helpful.  Maybe a stay at home mom with one child could be an option-  a close second to a nanny?  I feel weird talking about this but wanted to throw it out there.  As a mother, I know we will do just about anything for our children.  We love them so fiercely and can't stand it when they are unhappy or not thriving. Nobody wants to be stressed and overwhelmed either. 

 

I hope tomorrow goes better.  I apologize for the length of this e-mail, and if I have overstepped any boundaries between parent and caregiver.

 

 

 

[porcelina]

Your care provider sounds really in tune with the children's needs and what is age appropriate. It sounds like she sees that your daughter is not having the ideal experience because she is a bit too young for that type of group experience. And, it's not that she is bothered by your DD's needs, but really wants to do a better job meeting them, but really just can't in such an environment. My son was doing exactly the same thing in the group environment at age 24 months. He always held back, he wanted to be held (but they wouldn't even hold him, so he just followed around a care provider the whole time), and probably didn't eat much (that part I can't really remember). Your DCP is right that your DD is out of sorts in this environment, and it sounds like it's not likely to change within a month even. She is very caring and delicate in giving you that information. 

Developmentally speaking, that age is really a bit too young for the group environment, UNLESS they have been in that type of care from a very young age (infant). If they have had one-on-one care up until that point, they really need that (or maybe just one other child) up until about age 3 (or 2.5 or almost 4, depending on the child). (This is from a child development expert that works with my mom). If they have been in care up until that point, their little friends are like their family, and they do great. But, if they have had one-on-one attention, they are too aware of the world and their providers for it to be an easy transition.

I know the whole child care thing is really hard and the thought of looking again is overwhelming, after you have already found someone you like. But, it really sounds that while your DCP would be the perfect person to do the job if she had just one other child, that is not the current situation. So, I would look on care.com, craigslist, and sitter.com for something else. The socialization is still important, so I emphasize again the thought of finding someone with one other child to care for. DD really needs to be able to form an attachment bond with her next care provider, and that is simply not possible with so many needs that must be met at the same time. Hopefully, your next DCP can care for DD for a good year, to get a real bond formed. Then, she will be ready for a nursery/day care type environment. My DS at age 3.75 is doing excellently in his nursery school, and I was really skeptical that he would be ready. He is very sensitive and still holds back there (e.g., just watching a game of duck-duck-goose), but it is a very loving environment, he gets lots of hugs, and he is happy. I think all your DD needs is a little time.

I wouldn't suggest necessarily a one-on-one nanny situation, unless you can't find someone with a little companion. They really can benefit from getting the socialization slowly, learning to share, etc., in a loving environment.

I found this article helpful when my son was going through the same thing:

http://socialbaby.blogspot.com/2007/04/richard-bowlby-stress-in-daycare.html

ETA: Oh, and I don't think it's necessarily the trauma of the injury that is causing her to have issues -- the behavior she describes is completely consistent with her just not being ready yet.

[northerngirl]

Originally Posted by porcelina 

Your care provider sounds really in tune with the children's needs and what is age appropriate. It sounds like she sees that your daughter is not having the ideal experience because she is a bit too young for that type of group experience. And, it's not that she is bothered by your DD's needs, but really wants to do a better job meeting them, but really just can't in such an environment. My son was doing exactly the same thing in the group environment at age 24 months. He always held back, he wanted to be held (but they wouldn't even hold him, so he just followed around a care provider the whole time), and probably didn't eat much (that part I can't really remember). Your DCP is right that your DD is out of sorts in this environment, and it sounds like it's not likely to change within a month even. She is very caring and delicate in giving you that information. 

Developmentally speaking, that age is really a bit too young for the group environment, UNLESS they have been in that type of care from a very young age (infant). If they have had one-on-one care up until that point, they really need that (or maybe just one other child) up until about age 3 (or 2.5 or almost 4, depending on the child). (This is from a child development expert that works with my mom). If they have been in care up until that point, their little friends are like their family, and they do great. But, if they have had one-on-one attention, they are too aware of the world and their providers for it to be an easy transition.

I know the whole child care thing is really hard and the thought of looking again is overwhelming, after you have already found someone you like. But, it really sounds that while your DCP would be the perfect person to do the job if she had just one other child, that is not the current situation. So, I would look on care.com, craigslist, and sitter.com for something else. The socialization is still important, so I emphasize again the thought of finding someone with one other child to care for. DD really needs to be able to form an attachment bond with her next care provider, and that is simply not possible with so many needs that must be met at the same time. Hopefully, your next DCP can care for DD for a good year, to get a real bond formed. Then, she will be ready for a nursery/day care type environment. My DS at age 3.75 is doing excellently in his nursery school, and I was really skeptical that he would be ready. He is very sensitive and still holds back there (e.g., just watching a game of duck-duck-goose), but it is a very loving environment, he gets lots of hugs, and he is happy. I think all your DD needs is a little time.

I wouldn't suggest necessarily a one-on-one nanny situation, unless you can't find someone with a little companion. They really can benefit from getting the socialization slowly, learning to share, etc., in a loving environment.

I found this article helpful when my son was going through the same thing:

http://socialbaby.blogspot.com/2007/04/richard-bowlby-stress-in-daycare.html

ETA: Oh, and I don't think it's necessarily the trauma of the injury that is causing her to have issues -- the behavior she describes is completely consistent with her just not being ready yet.

Thanks for your reply. I am currently scoping out some potential caregivers. One is a sahm with a 10 month old boy. One is a sahm with a 3 yo. Another is a nanny/share which would have a 9 month old girl some of the time.

Would it be better with an older child, the 3 yo or with the >1 yo's?

I met with the woman with the 10 month old boy and really liked her, although she has only the childcare experience of caring for her only son. I would have to bring dd to her home.

I hope to meet with the sahm with the 3 yo this week. She would come to my house with her 3 yo.

The nanny share would be at the other persons home when she's watching the 9 mo old and then my home when she's not. Would that be too back and forth you think?

Would it be better for dd to remain at home with the caregiver coming here or would it be ok given what is happening currently to send her out of our home?

Thanks so much for any responses!!!!

Any advice would be great.
 

[porcelina]

It's always such a relief when you feel like there are other options, isn't it?

I would say that all else equal, the situation with a 3 year old would be much better. With a 10 month old or a baby, there is time spent leaving your LO alone while getting baby down for a nap. Plus, your DD won't be able to do anything out of the house during the morning nap. With the 3 year old, presumably, they will nap together, and there is no lost time. If you are comfortable with it, DCP can take the kids on little trips, or at least walks to playground and so forth. We got an extra car seat for our DS, and he got to go to places like zoo, farm, museum, playground, etc. It was really awesome. I wouldn't worry too much about having someone with no experience outside her own LO -- what's more important is your instincts about her, her parenting, etc. The more she is like you in her philosophy/approach, the better your DD will do.

That said, if the lady with an older child is not a good match, one of the situations with the baby is probably fine. Most important is that the DCP be a good match for you and your DD! Between nanny share and taking to the other DCP's house with a baby, I'd decide based on the person. Either of those situations would be fine. The back and forth actually keeps things interesting for them at this age, I don't think it's disruptive.

Good luck!

[olliemi2005]

I do not think that MORE daycare is the answer to helping a child adjust to daycare.  She is okay at home and needs as much time as possible where she feels good, safe, loved.   My ds has been in his "school" for a month and has only spoken once. He just turned 3!  But I do have a problem with that.  I have lots of problems with his "preschool" some that I share with you. Lack of training in the "teachers" too many children a space that is not in ideal.

When children are happy and enjoy their teachers, the kids, the space...they enjoy going to daycare or school.

I think kids being unhappy for more than a few weeks is a bad sign. Can you look at some other schools.

I am looking at other options for my son, it is a pain in the butt. Nothing else fits our schedule or our stretched budget but 6-7 hours a day 3x a week is a LONG time for anyone under the age of 30!

Good Luck to you and to me and our less than happy kiddos

:)

[olliemi2005]

I forgot to mention, over the summer I had 2 babysitters. With the first one my then 2 year old cried every morning when I left him for 3 months that she watched him. When we switched to a different babysitter  (4-6 hours two-3 x a week)  he waited for her to arrive at the door.

They know who they like!