ramiel nagel- whole grains cause tooth decay???

[Vaquitita]

http://www.curetoothdecay.com/Tooth_Decay/whole_grains_cause_tooth_decay.htm 

anyone read this? i'm confused by it. he says whole grains, even sprouted or fermented, the phytates will block the absorption of minerals? He recommends sifting to remove most of the bran and germ, wouldn't that basically make it white flour/rice??? What am I missing?

he also talks about it here: http://www.healingourchildren.org/Pregnancy_Diet/whole_grains_pregnancy.htm 

if you scroll down to the part on indigenous people he says:

As in many cultures across the world, the Swiss natives started with a whole rye kernel. But after grinding it slowly on a stone wheel, they sifted the rye and removed approximately ¼ of the flour mixture by weight of all impurities. Bran and germ consist of approximately 15-20% of the entire kernel. To be clear, if they started with one cup of flour, after sifting they would have ¾ of a cup of flour remaining. This rye bread still probably contained trace amounts of bran and germ vitamins. Even without knowing the science of phytic acid and lectins, they removed the phytic acid through fermentation, and removed toxic lectins in the germ and bran of the rye grain by sifting out the germ and the bran completely. It is likely then that the safe consumption of our most common grains similar to rye, like wheat, kamut, spelt, and barley involve a substantial or complete removal of the bran and the germ.  

[EllaMae]

No you're not missing anything!

I'm re-reading his book currently, and this section stood out to me as well.  He actually does say that if you are to buy flour at the store, buy organic white flour, NOT whole wheat flour b/c of the phytic acid levels.  He amends this by saying he doesn't recommend anyone who is trying to seriously combat tooth decay to eat white flour products of any kind.  I just got all gung ho reading this, and have now outlawed rolled oats from our kitchen.  We also no longer eat brown rice, only organic white basmati rice.  What I take to be his main point is that, those of us in Western culture who have compromised immune systems, and thus, issues w/ ph balance and thus, tooth decay, need to not eat any grains at all, especially in light of the fact, that we truly have no way of knowing exactly how our ancestors prepared these grains.  So many of our issues w/ foods goes back to seed variety, the lessening of diversity and strength of the seed stock, farming practices, and then, the insane fear based food regulations of our govn't.  All of this then, ends up in a grain or legume that is maybe not quite as vibrantly healthy as those grains of generations past.  I am a total foodies, and wannabe nutritionist, and I so often get overwhelmed by all the conflicting advice out there! 

[TonyaW]

Interesting!

[treehugginhippie]

Yes, but there's also the section where he talks about making a brown rice "starter" (or something like that) where it removes up to 96% (I think that was the #) of the phytates. That's what I do now and it's the only grain we eat.

[Sayward]

I really, really don't understand why this man has so much clout in some circles. His website is shoddily scrapped together, plagued with grammar and spelling errors, push push pushes his book, and screams "no credibility!" (to me). Also, um, HE'S NOT A DOCTOR. Or in possession of any degree/schooling that would render him qualified to "cure tooth decay". 

I just . . . don't. get. it.

Why the superstar status? Someone please explain?

[BubblingBrooks]

No matter how unprofessional he is, what he lays out works.
Tooth decays will heal much faster following his guidelines.

[donttrustthesystem]

I don't find him shoddy or not credible at all.  He's right about the phytates.  They're in nuts and seeds as well.  Here is his complete analysis of how to prepare grains, nuts, etc. to minimize phytates.  My daughter has rapid decay, so I am now on top of this.  http://www.westonaprice.org/food-features/living-with-phytic-acid

[Koalamom]

Originally Posted by Sayward 

I really, really don't understand why this man has so much clout in some circles. His website is shoddily scrapped together, plagued with grammar and spelling errors, push push pushes his book, and screams "no credibility!" (to me). Also, um, HE'S NOT A DOCTOR. Or in possession of any degree/schooling that would render him qualified to "cure tooth decay". 

I just . . . don't. get. it.

Why the superstar status? Someone please explain?

I totally agree. He has no qualifications and I can't trust much of what he says. Especially since I emailed him once of what I was experimenting with for my teeth several years back and he posted it on his website quoted and telling all you followers of what is gospel. If you followed it, it could lead you astray. Who knows what else is made up? I don't think he knows entirely what he is talking about.

Read his stuff, and pick it apart, research way more and do what feels right.

[countryangels]

Originally Posted by treehugginhippie 

Yes, but there's also the section where he talks about making a brown rice "starter" (or something like that) where it removes up to 96% (I think that was the #) of the phytates. That's what I do now and it's the only grain we eat.

Hi!

Can you tell me how you do this to brown rice?

I love brown rice, but would love it to be healthier, if possible.

Many thanks!

[treehugginhippie]

Sure! What you do is soak the brown rice overnight in water (16-24 hrs) and then save 10% of the soaking water and dump out the rest of the soaking water, putting in fresh water to cook it. Put that 10% in the fridge in a container. Then the next time you soak brown rice, add that 10% soaking water from before and add a bit more fresh water. Then again, save 10% of that water just before cooking. I think by the 5th time, you get up to 96% phytate reduction.

 

Originally Posted by countryangels 

Hi!

Can you tell me how you do this to brown rice?

I love brown rice, but would love it to be healthier, if possible.

Many thanks!

[1love4ever]

No library in my state has his book, anyone know where I can get it for cheap?  Anyone have any other book recommendations for books that are similar to his?  Besides the continuum concept and weston price

[BubblingBrooks]

Did you try the used section of Amazon?

Originally Posted by 1love4ever 

No library in my state has his book, anyone know where I can get it for cheap?  Anyone have any other book recommendations for books that are similar to his?  Besides the continuum concept and weston price

[1love4ever]

yes  theyre the same price, but i clicked the "see a random page in this book" link and i can read the book!!  http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_0_5?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=ramiel+nagel&sprefix=ramie

[1love4ever]

you can read a lot of the  book here!  Between this and amazon i hope i can read it all http://books.google.com/books?id=XRvQU7xlrQgC&pg=PR3&lpg=PR3&dq=resting+in+god+healing+our+children&source=bl&ots=aByEEE8vFd&sig=TDwKfWHR_cv4KZDJgixv3CueCVU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ODEGT5eGGOWhiQK9pdAs&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

Edited by 1love4ever - 1/7/12 at 12:26am

[AcaciaAnne]

I am also reading Ramiel Nagel's book. You are wise to be confused because he seems confused. I also read Weston Price's "Nutrition and Physical Degeneration" which Ramiel uses as a source for his recommendations, but then he goes contrary to Price's own recommendations. Weston Price recommends eating whole grains, not white grains. Nagel talks against grains, especially whole, because of the phytic acid in them. On page 14 of Nagel's book, he takes a table out of Price's book showing the Swiss traditional diet with almost perfect immunity to tooth decay because of their natural whole foods diet rich in cow and goat dairy, whole rye bread, and barley and vegetables with a bit of meat once or twice a week. The rye bread comprised 800 of their 2000 caloric intake and the barley comprised 100 calories. So if whole grains were so dangerous, these people would not have had nearly perfect dental health while eating almost half of their dietary intake in grains.

I have so many other objections to his book.I am a lacto-ovo vegetarian and my kids have great dental health, while his daughter's teeth are blackened with decay according to Nagel's own statements. He recommends an enormous amount of meat in his ideal diet, including lots of animal fats. I think that his ideas are too concentrated on one thing. Also, traditional diets in Price's observations were eaten by people who were not sedentary. We can't imitate their diets without imitating their lifestyles. So I would be concerned about the high animal based recommendations. We can get the vitamins, calcium, and phosphorus that Price recommends while eating lacto-vegetarian foods and have nice teeth without decay.

Nagel is not a dentist. All of his evidence is based on anecdotal stories and his conclusions from other authors. Be wary of just following anyone's advice. Read several sources that seem to confirm your research before following just anyone's ideas.
 

[Thandiwe]

Originally Posted by Sayward 

I really, really don't understand why this man has so much clout in some circles. His website is shoddily scrapped together, plagued with grammar and spelling errors, push push pushes his book, and screams "no credibility!" (to me). Also, um, HE'S NOT A DOCTOR. Or in possession of any degree/schooling that would render him qualified to "cure tooth decay". 

I just . . . don't. get. it.

Why the superstar status? Someone please explain?

 

Dealing with some serious and very unexpected tooth decay (underlying problem we soon discovered being Celiac), I threw us head first into the program he called for.  I did so much right and I tried working so naturally - but no matter what I did, it progressed.  My little guy needed intervention and we were able to research up to the wazoo to find a really good holistic pedi dentist who met our requests and treated him in a way I was happy with, but it took time to get over the guilt that I had *failed* his program.  Until I did some research and realized that it's not pushed by the medical community because actual clinical trials have failed.  Repeatedly.

[Thandiwe]

Originally Posted by treehugginhippie 

Sure! What you do is soak the brown rice overnight in water (16-24 hrs) and then save 10% of the soaking water and dump out the rest of the soaking water, putting in fresh water to cook it. Put that 10% in the fridge in a container. Then the next time you soak brown rice, add that 10% soaking water from before and add a bit more fresh water. Then again, save 10% of that water just before cooking. I think by the 5th time, you get up to 96% phytate reduction.

I do 2 cups of dry rice with 3-4 cups of water, but I reserve 1/2 cup of the soaking fluid.  After 3 cycles, it drastically reduces the phytic acid.  I wish I could say that's "precisely" why we do it, but honestly it's because brown rice, 1) cooks much faster once soaked, 2) tastes INCREDIBLY better after soaking - so much more tender!!

[tonttu]

Originally Posted by Thandiwe 

I do 2 cups of dry rice with 3-4 cups of water, but I reserve 1/2 cup of the soaking fluid.  After 3 cycles, it drastically reduces the phytic acid.  I wish I could say that's "precisely" why we do it, but honestly it's because brown rice, 1) cooks much faster once soaked, 2) tastes INCREDIBLY better after soaking - so much more tender!!

Do you rinse the rice with hot water in a strainer before you soak ? I do that with all my grains right before I cook them  , but would love to try the rice soaking idea 

[Thandiwe]

Originally Posted by tonttu 

Do you rinse the rice with hot water in a strainer before you soak ? I do that with all my grains right before I cook them  , but would love to try the rice soaking idea 

Lol, no...I probably should.  Honestly, I just plop them in there, add the soaking fluid, the top off with other water.  I use an old glass jar from jam and then cover with cheese cloth and place on the counter for a day.  Then I take out 1/2 cup, pop it into a container, and strain/rinse the rest before adding water to cook.  The first time you do it, you really should measure the water before/after.  I think it was 2 cups grains, 4 cups water, then after soaking there was only 3 cups water.  *That's* the amount you add to cook, 3 cups water, since it already absorbed 1 cup water soaking.  Otherwise you get too much water.  Nowadays I don't tend to add as much soak water, just kind of eyeball it, but with 2 cups rice I always use 3 cups water to cook no matter what I used to soak.

[kmamma]

I don't think it matters whether Rami has any medical credentials or not. He's definitely on to something when he claims no traditional cultures consumed their grains unrefined. There are a handful examples of them, sure, but for the vast majority, the bran and germ was largely removed (up to 95%).  Sally Fallon has no references to her claim that traditional people consumed whole grain. However, there is a recipe in her book for Ogi that calls for sifting the bran out of millet.  

The Swiss Alp group studied by Price did not consume whole rye. Compare their bread's nutritional analysis with sifted commercial flour, and there's only a slight difference. The difference would be substantial if the rye was whole grain. My guess is that Price had a preconceived idea that whole grains were better, along with his belief in vegetarianism as superior (before starting out on his travels). And apparently he didn't check to see whether the rye was sifted or not after grinding. Rami cites another source for this, but I've checked it and it's outdated. However, I think the data from Price's book is evidence enough. 

On a purely intuitive level, bran containing food is a bit repulsive. It tastes bitter and is chewy. When I used to make cookies with sprouted flour, I spit out the mass of bran at the end.