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ramiel nagel- whole grains cause tooth decay??? - Page 2

post #21 of 34

We stopped eating all grains 20 months ago. Previously we ate sprouted grains (five years previously, also traditional European diet otherwise), and lots of animal and fat, and my caries healed even with the grain. Since then, my 2 yr old toddler has ended up with terrible decay on her two front teeth on top, and two to one side of those, also on top. It occurred to me that her teeth were uncovered by her sweet top lip while sleeping, so I began an investigation of my own, into her mouth. It turned out that the tongue tie she was born with had grown back in. So, I had it clipped again, and immediately, her top lip descended into a relaxed position, during sleep as well, and the four teeth began healing immediately, now having just a light yellow staining where they used to be dark brown. It has only been a few weeks, so I expect that they will continue to improve.

 

It seems it's not always directly diet that causes caries, though an argument could be made for diet being the cause of the tongue-tie, I suppose. I haven't figured this out, and she's the third of my five children with the tongue tie, and the second child to need a second clipping.

 

I would gladly receive info on diet-caused tongue-tie, if anyone has any. I'd love to avoid any future clippings if possible. And any more caries!

 

ETA: None of us have any caries presently other than our 2 yr old. We eat a paleo diet- no grains, legumes, or dairy, ever. Lots of meat, veggies, and fat, moderate fruit, some starchy tubers.

post #22 of 34

Is caries and tongue-ties the only health problems, major or minor, that you and/or your kids deal with? 

 

Have you yourself had issues with decreased thyroid function?

 

I tend to believe that there's a diet for everyone, and it's not so much about what foods or nutrients you get, but more about eating what you intuitively crave (healthily of course). For some that might actually be grains and a higher overall quantity of starches. It's easier looking at individual health problems from a big picture perspective. Strengthen overall health, and you'll likely see improvements on the individual symptoms. 

 

The reason starches and a large portion of carbs might be good for certain people (though I would argue quite a few) is that they feed the metabolism. A weak metabolism can cause a ton of different problems, in kids it's common to see caries, poor vision, hyperactivity among others. 

 

Diet is important, but reducing other stressors is equally so. Like getting enough sleep and healthy exercise, minimizing emotional stress, environmental pollutants and so forth. 

 

I googled tongue tie and hypothyroid and there seems to be some correlation. I found it mentioned in this book Primary Care Pediatrics, that congenital hypothyroidism can cause tongue related problems.

 

http://books.google.se/books?id=o43u_qWT4asC&pg=PA102&lpg=PA102&dq=tongue+ties+hypothyroid&source=bl&ots=K_10nshSzM&sig=Nh22RdZHK-y4gsdqdII2X52pZLM&hl=en&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=tongue%20ties%20hypothyroid&f=false

 

Not to say that paleo is inherently metabolism lowering, but where people subsisted on a low carb diet, they made sure to include glandular food in their diets, basically in order to procreate.  low metabolism makes this otherwise very difficult. You could say that where carbs were available, people used that to maintain a high metabolism, but in the north, people ate things like thyroid glands from caribou getting ready to mate. 

post #23 of 34

ImogenSkye, I found this:

 

http://www.mothering.com/community/t/706203/do-you-think-tongue-tie-is-related-to-diet

 

There doesn't seem to be much info at all on the cause of TT. 

 

My DD is 11 m and was diagnosed with TT, and lip tie, 2 m ago, after she had lost weight since 14 wks of age and bascially I had no supply.  We can't get anyone locally to fix it (utterly ridiculous) and can't afford to travel 3000 km to Ottawa or NY atm.  I'm worried about her though, that she will have speech and dental problems.  She chatters like crazy but only says Mama and we think she is trying to say Papa and a few other things.  She has 6 teeth , big gap in the top two, and I was examining them and it seems the top ones might be turning brownish.

 

Her diet is great, only 100% homemade whole foods.  Never had grains or sugars (DH and I do eat soaked/sour grains in moderation and honey).  Since I no longer have milk, she has a raw goat or cows milk, although I plan on nursing her again after #2 is born.  I'm frustrated about the whole issue especially worried that our 2nd and future children will have it, I do NOT want to have such trouble nursing again nor do I want to travel so far with a brand new baby to have them treated. 

 

I do think there is a genetic component, DH (15 m younger than his sister) has a posterior TT (like DD's) and his sister's (eldest) was so bad she had it clipped as a baby, as well as one or more of his cousins.  My dad has a lip tie.  I ate a SAD diet with DD, I have been much improved this time around and I was taking FCLO prior to and after conception, so I'm praying #2 won't have it.  Just have to wait and see.   

post #24 of 34

TT is suspected to be linked to a damaged gut

post #25 of 34

Thank you so much for your replies and info! I am preparing to move 7000kms away next week, so I haven't been checking in, even though I've been hoping that someone might have ideas.

 

To answer some questions, I do have a history of hypothyroid, and did while pregnant with all of my children. Two had TT as newborns and one only developed it after turning seven. That was odd. All of them have been clipped now, and the caries in our 2 yr old's mouth are healing rapidly. 

 

I discovered after posting, and putting a flashlight into my children's mouths, that two of my children each have a small carrie in their six-yr old molar on the bottom right. Then, I discovered that I have one in the very same place on the same tooth! So I looked up tooth mapping for organs and emotions and found the symptoms relate strongly to adrenal stress, and just from a purely physiological perspective, this past winter was brutally cold, and torturously long, then our summer lasted two weeks, and has been cold otherwise. Usually, we have some reprieve from the cold winter with a longer, warmer summer. It has been the coldest on record for the past 50 years, and by a lot. These two children were born in the south, and show symptoms of intolerance to the cold. I definitely do, and suffered a serious hypothermic episode two years ago that resulted in nerve damage to my legs (which has healed significantly recently, even with the cool summer, but still isn't back to normal).

 

This stress on our genetically moderate-climate bodies is a major reason why we are leaving the north. Our diet includes organ meats and as wide a variety of foods as we can obtain up here, which is not nearly as much as down south. We have been eating as much pastured meat as possible, and raised our own last year, consuming the organs as well. When we arrive at our moderate-climate southern home (just north of coastal Maine, with the warmest waters in all of Canada, though still with winter, but for 3-4 months instead of 9 like up here), we will have more variety and also we will be eating wild as much as possible. I am looking forward to that. When we eat wild up here, we feel so much better, but unfortunately, it ha been a bit of wilderness famine with the blossoms having died early in the spring from cold; even the bears are coming into towns and breaking into houses to get food from the lack of wild vegetation and prey that eats it.

 

We take D3, Mg oil topically, and supplement with ionic minerals. I don't know if we can do anything else, but from what I have read in my anthropological studies, we are really not going to adapt to our climate up here, and that alone could be a major contributing factor in our physical health. Our guts do very well in moderate temps, but during the winter, the more exposure we have, the harder it is to absorb nutrients, and I see symptoms of deficiency of nutrients that we consume in large bio-available quantities, and that during the summer, these symptoms disappear.

 

I think we just need to be warmer. I will update when I can. We'll be "dark" beginning Aug 31st and until we can set up our satellite internet. Until then, I will check in, and thank you again; I'm going to look into what you wrote more so that I can see if there's anything else I can do to improve the situation.

post #26 of 34

Interesting reading. I didn't realize that eating whole grains could cause tooth decay. Does brushing teeth daily not help at all with the decaying process? I am not sure if I am strong enough to do away with whole grains in my diet. Please help.
 

post #27 of 34

Lynn, I'm sure it is different for everyone, but in my family, and especially me personally, grain-consumption has impaired our ability to absorb nutrients, and as you can tell  from my above post, we really cannot afford any unnecessary hindrances to our digestion (at the very least, the climate we live in has caused a lot of physical distress, so we're moving). When we quit grain, by the next day, we had to quit dairy too, and very soon thereafter, a lot of other food sensitivities surfaced while our guts healed. We all lost a lot of water weight within the first week, which meant we peed like crazy, and we have never been a heavy-grain family; we ate a soaked-whole-grain-with lot-of-eggs baked food for breakfast and that was it with very few exceptions. We've been able to reintroduce some foods more recently without any of the issues they started to cause with our previously perforated guts, such as tomatoes. 

 

That nutrient-absorption hindrance from grains did cause me and my man to have caries earlier in our lives, and for me, they all healed, except the new one I have now (again in my earlier post). I think it is possible to not have dental caries while eating grain, but if you have them and you are eating grain, there is a possible correlation at least, and maybe even evidence of causation.

 

I figure if I'm not doing the most basic things for my health like good diet, good sleep, and general well-being activities, then I shouldn't expect to be healthy. So if I AM doing those things, and I still have health problems, then I start asking for help figuring it out. In my case, our climate is an issue, and sleep is too, which I think is also connected to the climate-caused issues. I've always had low thyroid, but never, ever ever like since we moved to the north. Also, I don't have to take my thyroid hormones now that I'm eating more carbs (another post on here ;).

 

I'm in a big rush right at the moment; I'll check in later. :)

post #28 of 34

Lynn, for someone with weak tooth enamel, brushing does help. But it's not what saves your teeth. Strong, healthy teeth don't need brushing at all. There are people over at Matt Stone's blog who report getting stronger teeth after having increased their metabolism, and when they do, eating foods high in sugar does not hurt their teeth. It might explain why I know so many caries stricken families in the alternative community, yet very few in the more conventional crowd. 

 

Rami notes in his book that he gets emails from people who recently switched to a wholesome/whole grain diet and now have tons of cavities. My son has been cavity free since we gave up brown rice in favor of white. I think his argument that for a healthy adult, phytic acid and lectins are not a concern, but for growing kids it commonly is.

 

You could try refined grains instead of whole? See how it works for you. The idea that whole grains are better than refined is based on the notion that a food is best if it's a complete food. But what food is a complete food (besides dairy)? Meat's not, has little carbs, but it's still nutritious. We just eat it with carbs. Same goes for refined grains. It's stripped of minerals, but it's also stripped of most of the phytic acid and all the lectins. Get the minerals from bone stock. Get all your B vitamins from liver. Glucose is a very important nutrient, which is why people all over the world eat grains and starchy root vegetables as a large part of their diet. 

post #29 of 34

ImogenSkye, I hope you will all start feeling better in a warmer climate!  I've been to the area of Canada you are moving too- it is beautiful!  Wish I could convince DH to move there :)

 

Kmamma, thanks for sharing that on whole vs. refined grains.  My DH hates brown rice, he says growing up in Portugal they ate basmati (white).  I on the other hand, don't care for white rice, I find it very bland and not satisfying at all. 

post #30 of 34

Your husband grew up in Portugal--where? I'm half Portuguese myself, but grew up in Sweden. On my trips there I've learned they commonly eat their rice with fried potatoes. Or at least in restaurants. I find the combination very satisfying. Can't eat rice on its own really. I suppose in many rice eating cultures, it's eaten with a vegetable of some kind. 

 

When I switched my son to white rice, he did say he missed the taste of brown rice. Which is why I want to try milled rice, which retains some of the bran. I personally don't mind the taste of brown rice so much as the texture--having that mass of bran left in my mouth after the starch is all broken down. Hmm, if that makes sense!? It does concern me that there is no history of any people ever eating brown rice. That carries a lot of weight for me. It just seems that if people put so much effort into removing the bran, it's for good reason. I know of many people who get a stomach ache from brown rice. 

post #31 of 34

fascinating thread!  my son is tongue-tied, but not enough to resolve.  when he was 6 months, i was watching all the other babies in play group stick out their tongues, lick everything, and otherwise look like little lizards, and my son was the only politely close-lipped one.  i asked at the next dr's visit and my pedi gave me a weird look, then confirmed he was in fact tongue-tied.  he was my first child, and my mother, father, and 2 sisters were all tongue-tied and clipped.  my son did not require clipping.  that said, none of my other children are tongue-tied.  

 

I learned about traditional foods diets after my son was born.  since then we have done sourdough brown rice for years now.  I fresh grind the short grain brown rice, (only the freshest, i buy in bulk from a good supplier), and then have a starter and sour it for 8-24 hours, then cook with the sourdough with no unsoured rice.  This has been a huge process, but i can now make grain products that are gluten-free (allergies) but don't contain old flour, xanthum/guar gum, or any other less than ideal ingredients.  the brown rice is key to making a chewy, but tender baked good, the white rice makes it crumbly.  i used to soak the brown rice, and that whole thing, but it wasn't as tasty as what we're making now.

 

i personally do not eat grains often as they aggravate my gut, and especially with many pregnancies in the last few years, I focus on nutrient dense foods at all times.  but my husband and kids are all extremely healthy, though they only eat 2-3 servings of grains a day, then rest is meat, raw dairy, veggies and fresh local fruit.  my husband has NO cavities, in spite of not seeing a dentist for the last 8 or so years (no insurance, and we just didn't prioritize it as he has great dental health).  my kids will see a dentist in the next few months.  so far no cavities, no pain, no problems whatsoever.  I think prioritizing the fats with the grains helps a lot, and the fact that our house is sugar free, and even with all the meat and animal products in our diet, my body is always alkaline, which is supposedly useful in keeping illness and cavities at bay.  and since we eat the same foods (our dog as well, and she's cavity free after 7+ years on our diet), i have faith at this point that we have a good balance for us all.  I plan to keep learning (added in fermented cod liver oil a couple years back, upgrading from our Carson's cod liver oil), and improving, (still can't feed anyone kidneys or liver as a dish....) but think there is something to the 'Cure Tooth Decay'- especially if you're starting earlier in the game.

 

had a friend who's daughter had extensive tooth decay (dentist said 'juice'- they never gave their kids juice) and had to get work done.  she had worms as well, and is still really healing.  so there is a level of healing that can happen, and sometimes for the sake of the child, interventions that have to happen as well.  i'm going for the healing/diet side for my family, but accept that since i had undiagnosed gluten-intolerance for so many years, that my family is not perfect and may have some issues come up.

post #32 of 34

My husband spent his first 6 years on a farm in Northern Portugal eating everything fresh off the farm, including raw milk (which is why he loves it now!) he has also lived in Lisbon and Algarve.  Yes, they do eat rice AND potatoes in the same meal, I always thought it was so weird lol but my hubby is really happy when I make both at once :)

 

HouseofPeace, that nice to hear that your first son was TT but the rest weren't!  I can hope :)  I'm still confused on the grain/white vs dark vs should we eat them at all issue.  I seem to feel fine on a moderate (3 servings a day) amount of soured/soaked grains.  I slather everything in good fats too.  I made sourdough the other day, soured 18 hours and half whole grain/half unbleached white.  Much tastier and easier to eat than 100% whole grain.  How do you use the brown rice for bread, do you grind it into flour?

post #33 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dove84 View Post

My husband spent his first 6 years on a farm in Northern Portugal eating everything fresh off the farm, including raw milk (which is why he loves it now!) he has also lived in Lisbon and Algarve.  Yes, they do eat rice AND potatoes in the same meal, I always thought it was so weird lol but my hubby is really happy when I make both at once :)

 

HouseofPeace, that nice to hear that your first son was TT but the rest weren't!  I can hope :)  I'm still confused on the grain/white vs dark vs should we eat them at all issue.  I seem to feel fine on a moderate (3 servings a day) amount of soured/soaked grains.  I slather everything in good fats too.  I made sourdough the other day, soured 18 hours and half whole grain/half unbleached white.  Much tastier and easier to eat than 100% whole grain.  How do you use the brown rice for bread, do you grind it into flour?

 

yes- i grind it into flour, 6 cups at a time, and sour it w/ starter and then take 1/2- 1 cup out, mix it with our farm fresh eggs, some baking soda, sometimes a spatter of milk or water (depending on the end goal) and usually make it into pancakes.  the gluten-free breads make a better quick-bread, but can also make a cornbread/cast iron skillet bread, or pizza crusts.  usually i make a big fat stack of pancakes every morning.  kids eat it w/ pastured butter and organic molasses for breakfast, then peanut butter, or salami and cheese for lunch.  it's a great sandwich bread.  somehow the souring process totally changes the brown rice and it's tangy, chewy, and doesn't taste gluten-free, or like rice at all.  i can serve it to adults who aren't gluten-free and they enjoy it, and kids who like sour things like it (like mine, but many of my friends kids don't eat anything sour and they don't have a grid for sourdough).  it's a great carrier for sauerkraut and meat sandwich, butter alone, but is only good for 1-2 days.  after 2 days it gets dry and blech.  but then (if there's any left) it becomes french toast. 

 

we also get to eat right off the farm!  it's such a huge blessing.  walked down today and picked up okra, edamame, hot peppers to ferment into hot sauce, and fresh eggs.  that's just our pick-your own (except the eggs) stuff.  

 

each of my children has been stronger and healthier than the last.  so far.  i feel very blessed.  even when it came to sensitivities to foods i ate when breastfeeding, they've become stronger.  it's never too late, and every little bit does make a difference.  

post #34 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by HouseofPeace View Post

 

yes- i grind it into flour, 6 cups at a time, and sour it w/ starter and then take 1/2- 1 cup out, mix it with our farm fresh eggs, some baking soda, sometimes a spatter of milk or water (depending on the end goal) and usually make it into pancakes.  the gluten-free breads make a better quick-bread, but can also make a cornbread/cast iron skillet bread, or pizza crusts.  usually i make a big fat stack of pancakes every morning.  kids eat it w/ pastured butter and organic molasses for breakfast, then peanut butter, or salami and cheese for lunch.  it's a great sandwich bread.  somehow the souring process totally changes the brown rice and it's tangy, chewy, and doesn't taste gluten-free, or like rice at all.  i can serve it to adults who aren't gluten-free and they enjoy it, and kids who like sour things like it (like mine, but many of my friends kids don't eat anything sour and they don't have a grid for sourdough).  it's a great carrier for sauerkraut and meat sandwich, butter alone, but is only good for 1-2 days.  after 2 days it gets dry and blech.  but then (if there's any left) it becomes french toast. 

 

we also get to eat right off the farm!  it's such a huge blessing.  walked down today and picked up okra, edamame, hot peppers to ferment into hot sauce, and fresh eggs.  that's just our pick-your own (except the eggs) stuff.  

 

each of my children has been stronger and healthier than the last.  so far.  i feel very blessed.  even when it came to sensitivities to foods i ate when breastfeeding, they've become stronger.  it's never too late, and every little bit does make a difference.  

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