How to find consequences for 2 1/2 yr old

[colsxjack]

I was just going to ask this in the "willfull definence in 2 1/2 yr old thread" but I that has turned into a debate on spanking thread.

We also have a 2 1/2 yr old who likes to push buttons. She is a delightful child and age appropriately pushing boundaries. Sometimes we redirect, sometimes we distract, sometimes we remove her from the activity or place and let her tantrum, sometimes we allow her to do the thing we wish she wouldn't and deal with the natural consequence (such as allowing her to pour out her bubbles and then not being able to make any bubbles anymore because they were gone). We have just started letting her deal with less direct cause and effect type consequences such as not getting ready to go out so not being able to go to the library because now there is not any time.

I came across a situation the other day that had me stumped (and furious). I was putting her down for a nap. We co-sleep, and when we put her to bed for a nap or bedtime we lay with her until she falls asleep. We let he roll around, whisper, play a bit and try to put herself to sleep. Sometimes, if she is having a hard time settling I gently tell her to lay down, or I make the shush shush shush sounds. She is usually receptive to this.

Well, the other day instead of laying down she said "NO". And when I shush shushed her she says "Dont say shhh daddy". I stopped because when she isn;t receptive it will just rile her up more. But she says "Shut up Daddy" I tell her gently but firmly "You do not tell Daddy to Shut up". Well, like usual when we are firm she thinks it is hilarious and she laughs and says "Shut up, shut up, shut up" I turn my back to her and say I am not going to engage with her when she is being rude like that. She continues with "Shut up, shut up, shut up" and proceeds to taps me and jump on me and says "Did you hear me Daddy? I said to Shut up Daddy".

Now I was at a loss and frustrated. I continued to ignore her, she started to cry and then went to sleep after 5 minutes. I didn;t know what to do. I wanted to shout at her to not say that. I wanted to tell her that we couldn't read a book later because she was being rude (her favourite activity) but I didn't think when later came she could equate the two situations. I wanted to leave the room and just let her get herself to sleep.

What would you have done in this situation?

What would the natural consequence be to her being rude and disrespectful?

At what age can a child be given a consequence later on and be able to equate it to behaviour they did earlier?

Thanks if you were able to read all of this!

[pianojazzgirl]

I think that at that age your dd really does not get what it means to say "shut up" (or rather, the impact that saying "shut up" can have).  She didn't want you to say "shhh shhh" any more, and so she asked you to stop.  Unfortunately she asked in a way that pushes most adults' buttons.  What I would have done is responded as if she had simply asked me to stop.  I might have said "you can say please stop" or something to that effect, but then again, at bedtime (naptime) I probably would have looked at the larger goal (getting her to sleep) and looked beyond the words to the intention, and just let the phrasing (rude though it is) go.

I find that as kids go through the process of discovering the impact of words sometimes the best thing to do is just take the power out of the words.  Ignore, or calmly re-phrase in an acceptable way.  A strong reaction will almost certainly pique their interests and have them repeating and repeating.

[Xerxella]

I think you handled it really well.  You told her that was not acceptable and it did not get your attention or a reaction from you so she quit and went to sleep. 

Good work dad! 

[leftcoast_trillium]

I think you did great. From your posts it seems like we have children with pretty similar temperaments. Very verbal, and delightful most of the time but royal a PITA the rest.

I'm right there with you about the instinct to say "You do NOT talk that way" but what I've found is what you found, it only gets them really interested in more cause and effect studies. As in, if I say "Shut up Daddy" then I evoke a reaction that is very intriguing and I want to do it again and again as I explore the power in this relationship.

It's hard to hear them cry, especially if they're crying while you're are feeling angry and frustrated, because then you're worried that you're doing something wrong or punitive. But sometimes they need the freedom to express their emotions without emotional interference/control from us. If I feel like I need to participate, I just go with empathy while my little one does that, and I don't lie or say anything fake that I'm not feeling. In our case, it's "you feel really sad that mama excused you from the table when you had trouble remembering that food was for eating. "

In your case, I think I might have just said "you can say, daddy please don't say shhhh" and then just been quiet. BTW, our little guy has axed the shushing too...now I just hang out but don't respond to anything except to say, "It's sleeping time now" when I am asked a direct question.

You might really enjoy this blog, I do

joyfultoddlers.blogspot.com

She has great practical advice.

I'm not sure that kids this age can really put two and two together if you want to take something away later as a punishment for behavior happening in the moment, and I guess I feel like disengaging from the interaction is impact enough for them.

[colsxjack]

Thanks all.

I know I did alright in the situation, and better than i could have done because I was FURIOUS at the time.

We try not to react when she does stuff such as this because as the PP said, once she knows she got a reaction she will continue it for a long time.

I am usually pretty patient with putting her to sleep, but lately it has just been pushing my buttons like crazy. If it wasn;t during this frustrating trying to get her to nap episode her telling me to shut up would not have even phased me in the least. But I was already on edge.

I know she has the personality type that we will be dealing with similar stuff from her. I just want to be able to be prepared before hand for how I will deal with such things so that I react in such a way as to "nip it in the bud" and not react from emotion. Sometimes it is so hard to remember they are still babies when they are so verbal and so capable in so many areas.

[leftcoast_trillium]

I don't know if this is helpful, but I've decided that I sometimes need to adjust my approach to take into consideration MY feelings and reactions to a behavior. For me the button pushing happens around eating, after 2 or 3 warnings, the spitting food onto the floor and smirking at me while I'm trying to get him wiped up and out of his chair will make me lose my cool. I have never felt worse then when I saw myself grab his mouth after that episode and say very firmly "THAT is NOT ok"...I'm the parent that used to warn him as an infant that I would be changing his diaper or picking him up off the floor and moving him. I don't want to be a parent that uses physical intimidation to acquire compliance! He's already 3 ft tall at 2, that method, even if I thought it was ok, isn't sustainable.

The most challenging part of parenting for me so far as been the realization that I cannot expect what worked 3 months ago for our family to work until he's in college. I exaggerate, but you know, I'm used to figuring a person out and the way I interact with them not needing much change. I mostly interact with adults!! I'm not used to needing to change my approach in an interpersonal relationship so much.

So anyway, I decided I need to excuse him from the table much earlier while I'm still in control of my cool. He might last another 10 minutes, but I won't. So I changed my approach for the sake of me and my sanity and excuse him much earlier then before...one warning, and he's done. He's actually doing much better even though he cried the first time, then squawked a little about it the second and third.

You might give yourself the freedom to think about adjusting your approach to sleeping for YOU, not her, knowing it will benefit her too. Just a thought.

[colsxjack]

That is helpful leftcoast trillium. I do know that it is my issue. If she had told me to shut up another time I would not have really been bothered much and could easily ignore and not react. It was the fact that my buttons were already pushed. I need to transition us all from me/us laying there with her until she falls asleep to finding a way to excuse myself and leave her alone to fall asleep without making her feel punished or abandoned. We have never left her alone to fall asleep herself yet. Maybe it is time to get her used to doing so at times when it is not stressful or we are not frustrated at her.

Maybe she is ready for us laying with her for a bit until things are calm and then leave her to fall sleep on her own. That may cut the frustration for her. She is pretty strong willed and verbal. If she is not ready for it to happen she will not allow it to happen without a huge fuss...and we are not into making her cry it out to sleep. (we do let her fuss over things like not getting her way, but we are not into letting her go to sleep stressed out and alone)

[leftcoast_trillium]

I wasn't really suggesting that you just let her cry herself to sleep alone or even cry to sleep with you there (I know my little guy is not ready for falling asleep on his own at all). I was thinking more along the lines of maybe there are adjustments you can make in between staying there and being very active about calming her down (with the shusshing) and just letting her fall asleep on her own. Some adjustment that works for both of you, so you don't get super frustrated and she still goes to sleep for the most part. Every family is different, but you might be able to change things up a little to improve the situation for you. Maybe it would be to not respond with anything except "it's sleeping time" and stay passive to the rest, or maybe it would be that on those super restless days (if they are few) you just give up on the nap after say, an hour of trying and plan on getting her to bed early, or maybe it's letting her chose a story or a song for you to sing as she lies there, or maybe it's creating some sort of prenap ritual. Something where you feel like you don't get so frustrated but still works?