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To Amnio or Not to Amnio...

post #1 of 17
Thread Starter 

That is my question...

 

We found out at 19-20 weeks that we're pregnant.  It's a long story.  (See other thread here.)

 

The dr. said they date the genetic risk based on how old you'll be at the time of birth - so at that point I'll be 36 and 10 months.

 

I was originally told I'm not eligible for an amnio as I'm too far along.  Today I was told I can have one. nut.gif

 

The question is - do I want one?  The dr. is encouraging us to do it.  The thing is, if I got a positive result, then what?  We're really not sure.  If the baby had something fatal and we decided not to go forward (really the ONLY reason we would), I'd still basically have to be induced which sounds awful.  Then again, finding out at full term that this was the case would be perhaps even more devastating. 

 

I promised that I wouldn't get crazy on google looking up information on all this because I know I'll just make myself more freaked out. 

 

I just don't know what to do...

 

So I thought I'd ask you wise mamas about your process in making this decision and what was helpful for you in sorting it out...

 

TIA! 

 

 

post #2 of 17

A couple of things to consider about amnio - 

 

- False positives are fairly common (sorry I don't have the statistical numbers handy). 

- Most of the genetic disorders cannot be treated or addressed in utero - if you plan to keep your baby if something shows up this can prevent or make it difficult to bond with your child if you're upset about the results. Or it can help you prepare for a special-needs arrival - it can go either way for you. 

- There is a risk of damage to the child and miscarriage (1 in 200 according to Dr. Sears).

 

If you don't have a family history of any of the genetic disorders it tests for, and you wouldn't abort the baby if something were wrong, you really don't need to get the test. 

post #3 of 17

I know you just found out, but have you done a quad screen?

If you're worried about the amnio, the quad can help you see if you are at an elevated risks first. Obviously it's not a definitive as the amnio, but can help put your mind at ease or help you decide if you want to get an amnio based on the result of the quad screen.

post #4 of 17

Can't tell you what to do but I wanted to correct some stuff from the above post.

 

1) False positives - not really, depends what you define as a 'false positive.'  An amnio is looking for visible chromosomal abnormalities.  The likelihood of finding a 'false positive' for Down's or other trisomy (i.e. a visible extra chromosome) is vanishingly small - it would almost have to mean that the lab mixed up your sample with someone else's. 

On the other hand they can find things like random chromosomal transpositions where they don't actually know what the change will mean clinically - could be anything from completely healthy child to unpredictably severe impairments.  I wouldn't call that a 'false positive' but it is a possible (though not super common) outcome.
 

2) Risk of miscarriage from the amnio - Initially the reason for putting the amnio at age 35 was because that was the point at which the risk of damage/miscarriage from the amnio equaled the likelihood of actually finding something (usually Down's).  My understanding is that the safety of the amnios has actually improved since that guideline was initiated, but they still start offering the option at age 35 because of tradition or whatever.  So at 35 or thereabouts, the risk from the amnio is now actually somewhat lower than your risk of finding an abnormality.  They're both pretty small.

 

The 1:200 number is very old and based on inaccurate data - the real added risk of miscarriage from amnio is probably less than 1:1000; see this site for a more in-depth discussion:

http://miscarriage.about.com/od/pregnancyafterloss/f/amniocentesis.htm

 

At 36 you're looking at something like a 1:300 chance of Down's

http://pregnancy.about.com/cs/downsyndrome/l/bldownssyn.htm

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kitchensqueen View Post

A couple of things to consider about amnio - 

 

- False positives are fairly common (sorry I don't have the statistical numbers handy). 

- Most of the genetic disorders cannot be treated or addressed in utero - if you plan to keep your baby if something shows up this can prevent or make it difficult to bond with your child if you're upset about the results. Or it can help you prepare for a special-needs arrival - it can go either way for you. 

- There is a risk of damage to the child and miscarriage (1 in 200 according to Dr. Sears).

 

If you don't have a family history of any of the genetic disorders it tests for, and you wouldn't abort the baby if something were wrong, you really don't need to get the test. 


 

I guess my feeling on this is, if they are going to find something, the most likely thing to find would be Down's.  If finding out that the child has Down's would cause you to terminate, that would be a reason to get the amnio.  If you would *not* terminate for Down's I would not bother with the amnio.   

 

Oh, and - Congratulations!!!


Edited by mambera - 10/7/11 at 2:10pm
post #5 of 17

I had no idea that the stats from the Dr. Sears website were outdated - that's usually pretty reliable info! Thanks for posting the updated references. 

post #6 of 17

I personally would not recommend it - the stats are so high for false readings.  AND I knew a couple who was told from the tests that their child had Downs...they spent the entire pregnancy in worry and doubt and fear...tears and grieving.  And in the end had a perfect little boy - the mother was a first timer and was 41 years old.

post #7 of 17

PLUS - that same couple had SOOOOO much pressure put on them to abort once they had that test result...they were really treated badly for refusing...and the test was wrong.

post #8 of 17

I wouldn't do it personally. I think it just causes more stress.

post #9 of 17

the only reason they're offering it to you is your age?  nonsense.  we're in the same ddc btw, and i'll be 38 when this babe comes.  i really wouldn't.

post #10 of 17
I'm 38 and my OB and I are on the same page regarding amnios...only *consider* one if the 20 week anatomy scan throws up any red flags. Otherwise it's not worth the stress. He also suggests women refuse the penta test if they're over 35 as the numbers are no longer reliable.

Personally, the thought of an amnio scares the crap out of me!
post #11 of 17

I had it my last 2 pregnancies (aged 37 and 44) and am glad I did as it gave me peace of mind that I would have otherwise worried about. Never had an issue with the amnio- I would however never see a regular any old doc for one but go to a specialist who only does amnios all day long and has a very low miscarriage rate (mine for example had not had onw in over 13 years and had been doing it since 1973 and teaching other MD's). Anyhow both times my midwives referred me.

 

I don't trust the quad screen for accuracy even though this last time I had one and all was fine(but I went on to get the amnio anyhow) but as the doc said some babies do slip through the cracks and when they are born have the surprise down syndrome or whatever. Not that I would abort either, I just like to be prepared beforehand but that's me especially at my age.

post #12 of 17
Thread Starter 

I really appreciate all the input.  Thank you for sharing your thoughts!

 

We have an appt. for an ultrasound and then a genetic counseling session on Monday morning.  After that, we'll decide if an amnio makes sense or not.

 

I'm not sure what we'll do - it will be interesting to see what they recommend based on the ultrasound and the risk factor analyis.

 

What a roller coaster these last couple weeks have been!!

 

 

post #13 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by kitchensqueen View Post

A couple of things to consider about amnio - 

 

- False positives are fairly common (sorry I don't have the statistical numbers handy). 

- Most of the genetic disorders cannot be treated or addressed in utero - if you plan to keep your baby if something shows up this can prevent or make it difficult to bond with your child if you're upset about the results. Or it can help you prepare for a special-needs arrival - it can go either way for you. 

- There is a risk of damage to the child and miscarriage (1 in 200 according to Dr. Sears).

 

If you don't have a family history of any of the genetic disorders it tests for, and you wouldn't abort the baby if something were wrong, you really don't need to get the test. 


False positives for WHAT are fairly common with amnio? For chromosome diagnosis, it is extremely accurate. If you have a full karyotype done, the chances of them coming up with a diagnosis like Down Syndrome and it not actually being Down Syndrome is vanishingly small. False negatives, where it misses small defects or genetic problems that it is not testing for, is more possible. But still, it is as accurate as anything likely to be done after a baby was born.  

 

The blood test+ultrasound screenings are just that, screenings, and most people who come up as requiring further study do not turn out to have problems. But amnio is considered diagnostic, and the risks of a false positive are extremely low. With our CVS, the sample failed to grow at all, but our amnio did just fine. You have more risk of "no result" than "result that is not accurate", with both tests. 

 

The risk of damage to baby and miscarraige at 20+ weeks is quite small, far less than 1 in 200, though this is ALWAYS a practitioner-dependent number. My perinatologist said his personal stats are less than 1 in 1000 loss for amnio and 1 in 500 for CVS, because he's very careful and conservative about how he does them. I can go into specifics, but the risks at 20 weeks are much, much lower than Dr. Sears would imply. CVS or amnio done too early can be quite risky. Done by a practitioner with little experience, they can be even more risky. Done by a competent doc, late enough in pregnancy, the risks are far lower. The overall background risk of loss is higher than the risk of loss from amnio or CVS. 

 

A family history of genetic disorders is irrelevant when it comes to the kinds of testing that they're usually looking for for someone over 36 years old. I have no history of chromosome disorders, but at age 33 had a child with a rare mutation that deleted a chunk of her 4th chromosome. Family history had jack all to do with it. 

 

All that said...

 

When it comes down to it, the decision to test or not boils down to a couple of factors:

 

1. If you got a diagnosis that would imply severe, lifelong special needs, would you continue the pregnancy or not? With my second child, the answer was, "There is no circumstance under which I would abort." With my third child, the one I'm pregnant with now, the answer was, "I cannot do another highly special needs child, and would rather abort than continue a pregnancy where I knew the child would have anything like my second child's level of special needs."

 

2. If your child did end up having a chromosome disorder, and was born and had a problem that could have been mitigated by immediate treatment, and you hadn't gotten the testing, would you be upset at yourself for not doing the testing?  In my case, with my second child, the answer was NO. Not only that, but because we did not know in advance, I birthed at home. Because I birthed at home, I was not c-sectioned (I would have been in the hospital and can elaborate if anyone needs me to) and she did not go into the NICU for feeding issues. We managed her issues at home, I breastfeed her for 2 1/2 years, and she's currently doing far better than anyone ever thought she might, and the chances are high that things would have been WORSE with immediate medical intervention. There is a perception that most "special" babies need instant treatment and will be worse off if they do not get it within minutes of birth. In reality, delays in treatment are often not that significant, and even with the rare disorders, there are few conditions where advanced knowledge truly changes the end result. Spina bifida is one counterexample, but spina bifida of the sort that will do better with special delivery can usually be diagnosed via ultrasound at 20+ weeks. 

 

3. How much anxiety would it cause you to not get the test? For me, continuing a pregnancy past 13 weeks not knowing (because our CVS sample failed to grow) was a nightmare every day until we got our answer at 17-ish weeks. Had I not tested, I would have had anxiety every single minute of every single day through delivery and been jumpy until well into the first couple months of my child's life. Another friend who got pregnant in her forties described exactly this scenario...declining the testing despite "advanced maternal age" (Older than I am now, at 39) and having crying jags about the fear of a serious problem until the baby was born healthy. But once I knew things were okay, I stopped having panic attacks and anxiety and flashbacks to my daughter's postpartum, and was able to accept the pregnancy with a more open heart. With my second, the very idea of testing was anxiety inducing, and I was very happy to go through the pregnancy not knowing, and to this day I'm glad I didn't know ahead of time. 

 

I love my daughter. I don't regret having her. But that doesn't mean that at this stage of my life and in the health I'm in, I could deal with another babyhood like hers was. It was insanely, mind bogglingly hard. I had weeks, months where I barely slept due to her feeding issues, pumping, anxiety... I cannot tell you how many doctors we've seen or how many professionals have shrugged their shoulders and blown us off. I've often felt like her doctor, her researcher, her therapist, to the point where sometimes I don't feel like her mother. The stress of her first few years of life quite literally nearly killed me. When I say I cannot do that I again, I quite literally mean I'd rather die that go through that process another time if I had another choice. I don't wish I had it to go back and do over again. I don't wish she'd never been born. But it was actually a condition of even trying to get pregnant for both my husband and me, that we do prenatal testing and strongly consider abortion if there was another major genetic/chromosome defect. There's a reason there's such a big gap between my kids...

 

There are no guarantees. There are plenty of ways the process can go wrong that amnio can't test for. But knowing that my boy's chromosomes are normal, that whatever else happens, he's not starting out with that stacked against him... it makes it a little easier to trust the process.

 

I've been pregnant four times with my husband. Two of those pregnancies were early losses. One was my daughter and her chromosome issue. I had no room to be cavalier about "Oh, it's probably going to be fine."

 

 

post #14 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramzubo View Post

I know you just found out, but have you done a quad screen?

If you're worried about the amnio, the quad can help you see if you are at an elevated risks first. Obviously it's not a definitive as the amnio, but can help put your mind at ease or help you decide if you want to get an amnio based on the result of the quad screen.



Quad screens cannot be done starting at 20 weeks, IIRC. They pretty much have to be done earlier for the numbers to be meaningful. I've never had one, because with the first two we wouldn't have done anything anyway and didn't want to know, and with the third we knew we were going to CVS right off the bat. 

post #15 of 17
Thread Starter 

Just a quick update -- I ended up meeting with a Genetic Counselor to get the full scoop on the stats and what was possible, etc.  We'd been given all kinds of differing information and felt really confused so decided to go to someone who specializes in this and it's all they do every day. 

 

She said we did qualify for a Quad Screen even though we were 20w5d.  However, there was some question re: the accuracy of the results at this stage.

 

The stats we were given for risk of chromosome disorder at my age (36) were 1:148.  The risk of a complication with the amnio was 1:400-500. 

 

We decided that the screening was potentially going to cause more worry than help with the possibility of false positives, etc. and the risk of amnio problem was much lower than the risk of a chromosome problem so we opted to do the amnio.  It was a very hard decision but we felt it was right for our family.

 

The good news is that everything went fine.  We got the preliminary (FISH) result back in 24 hours: no trisomy 13, 18, or 21.  The full results will be back in a couple weeks but they said with our ultrasound results and the FISH result, things look really good!  joy.gif

 

For us, the shock of finding out at 19 weeks that we were pregnant and the major brain switch to having a 3rd child when we thought we were stopping at 2 was enough surprise.  We decided that being confident that he's happy and healthy in there was worth a really small risk.  Everyone has to make this choice in their own way and clearly it is deeply personal.  This was just what was right for us this time around.  Previously we'd always opted against the tests but things change with each pregnancy and this time it was the right thing to do.

 

Thank you all for your thoughts.  It was really helpful to have different perspectives.

 

 


Edited by JuniperMama - 10/13/11 at 9:48pm
post #16 of 17

That's a great update!  Now you get to enjoy the rest of your pregnancy with one less stressor. :)

post #17 of 17

I'm glad that you got a good result, and that you decided to talk to a specialist about your particular risk factors. It always makes it easier to make an informed decision when you have solid information that's tailored to your situation. Good luck and enjoy the rest of your pregnancy! 

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