Apparently, I'm one of those "I had a period" people

[crystal_buffaloe]

Holy crap, ya'll -- I'm pregnant!

I have no idea what happened or how it happened! According to my chart, this is practically impossible: http://www.fertilityfriend.com/home/babybuffaloe

I started OPK's up again this cycle, and I got a positive kind of late (6pm) yesterday with pretty diluted urine, and then another positive today. My husband talked me into taking a pregnancy test, and even though it was definitely not FMU (after 1pm) it came up BFP!! So I went to the store and bought a FRER and it was positive, too

I seriously had a period -- it was light, but it was not spotting, and there was one day of red blood. And my temps went down -- and they're still low, low, low, but the BFP is there! (I bought a new thermometer and started it this “cycle” plus it’s been cool in our room in the morning, but I didn’t think enough to make that huge of a difference.)
Do you think I conceived when FF said I ovulated 18 days ago? (And if I did, why’s the positive line still faint?) What’s going on with the “period”? Any thoughts? (And please cross your fingers for a sticky baby! I am so excited I could burst!)

[sraplayas]

crystal--wow! just want to say congrats and yes, that is an interesting chart. I don't know what to say on that but I have seen some BFP charts with wacky temps. :) Happy for you.

[Jaimee]

Wow...  I'm not sure what to make of it!  Just for kicks, can you merge your two charts so we can see the overall pattern?  As they are now it looks to me like your only possible O time is CD 31/32.  How long are your LP's usually?   Would 8 days have been very short for you or is that your norm? 

I also don't want to be a huge downer, but I might consider going in for beta hCG testing to make sure that your levels are going up and not down.  Most OB's and midwives would accommodate this request readily b/c of the bleeding.  While the manufacturers of the tests are quite clear that you cannot use the darkness of the line as an indication of viability, I wonder about your low temps and the bleeding.  Your temps have still not gone back up into your previous LP range and I might also be concerned about low progesterone- especially if short LP's are your norm.  If your hCG is indeed rising, then progesterone supplementation might be in order to help sustain the pregnancy.

But I do want to say a huge congratulations and FX for sticky baby!    Please keep us updated!

[crystal_buffaloe]

How do you merge the two charts? (I was thinking that would be easiest, too, especially for taking in to the doctor.)

And no worries about being a downer -- a lot of things have crossed my mind about the wackness of it all and it is so strange something has got to be going on, right?

I don't have a lot of experience charting, so I don't exactly know what my regular LP would be. It was 10 days the cycle before I got pregnant with my daughter and FF claims it was 16 days the cycle I concieved the first time, but I have no idea how they came up with that number -- I got the BFP at 12dpo.

Would NPC do anything?

I still can't quite believe it. I'll take another FRER very first thing tomorrow.

(Still hopeful! )

[Jaimee]

To merge the two charts, go to the Data drop down menu at the top and you'll see the option to merge charts under "Cycle/Chart Management."

A 16 day LP is quite long and uncommon and a 10 day LP is about the shortest you can have a sustain a pregnancy.  It would be odd to go from one to the other.  I would be interested to see those charts if you feel like posting! 

Are you taking NPC or are you wondering if you should take NPC?  If the latter, I would really recommend some blood work first, but you have to go with your gut to determine what is the best course of action for you right now.  FX that all is well!

[dejagerw]

Your new thermometer could account for your seemingly low temps this "cycle". Can you take your temps with your old thermometer too for the next couple days, to see how they compare?

[crystal_buffaloe]

I am not using NPC – but it’s hard not to do something, you know?

So I took a new FRER and dipped another internet strip this morning. Both still positive
but both still faint. The FRER looks the same and the internet strip is actually lighter. I expected/
hoped that they’d both be darker, since it’s one day later and I’m using FMU this time.

I made my old charts available & here’s my merged chart, showing it as just one long cycle:


(FF said to do this with “extreme caution”
and took away the coverline & ovulation day they’d given me before I did the merge – they were
98.2 and cycle day 31)

I also performed a small experiment with my thermometer. Methodology: I took my temp 5 times
with the new thermometer and 5 times with the old thermometer (not BBT). I threw out the first
temp from both runs, just since they looked off from the others and it beeped too dadblamed quickly
for me to really trust it. I averaged both columns and subtracted the difference. I roped DH into doing
it too, and we did the same thing for him, just without throwing out the first temp, since it didn’t
seem off and the thermometers were already warmed up.

So the new thermometer looks to run about 1.1 degrees cooler than the old one,
Which would pretty clearly explain the huge drop in temps – and it was why I waited to make the
switch in a new cycle! I’m wondering if I should take temps with both thermometers? (If so, which
should I record? Where? How?) – or should I switch back to the old one and adjust the intervening
temps up? (which I am tempted to do, just so as not to make my doc’s head explode)
The big dip today and the fainter line have got me trying not to obsess.
Thanks for slogging through this, and any insight at all is appreciated!
Edited by crystal_buffaloe - 10/9/11 at 9:12pm

[crystal_buffaloe]

I started spotting tonight (light brown). I would really like to know what is going on -- I'm trying hard to be hopeful, but it's definitely not feeling "real" yet.

[Jaimee]

Don't worry, you can always split them back up if you need to and you'll get your O day and CL back.  It just doesn't know what to do with the bleeding.  You can manually add back in the O day and CL by clicking the "tuning/override" button underneath your chart.

Well, it's pretty clear that there is a massive difference between your temps from cycle to cycle.  Even if you adjust your temps for the 1.1 degree difference there will still be quite 4 temps below your CL and a few right on it.  It's definitely perplexing!  Your pre-O temps do not indicate low progesterone at all- in fact they are quite high.  So it seems that one of your thermometers is off.  Which one is unknown at this point.  You'd need a third thermometer and it would become quite the experiment!    I love that you had a methodology, but I have to say that from my personal experience, taking my temp a few times in a row always results in steadily increasing temps.  So averaging the temps wouldn't make sense.  At best you could take your temp with one, then the other, and alternate a few times, then average the difference between each pair of temps.  It still won't be super accurate because of the time it takes to take each temp- to be accurate you'd have to take them at the same time, which is not possible, I don't think.  But it would be better than a straight average of each thermometer.

Anyway, I would continue to temp with your old thermometer until you resolve what is happening, see what your temps look like and then you will likely be able to make a better decision about what to do with the lower temps with the new thermometer.  In the meantime, I personally would be going in for beta hCG testing to verify good doubling times.  Please keep us posted!

ETA: you posted at the same time I did... so I can see that your temps did not steadily increase, nor did your dh's.  But I still might repeat the experiment as described above to see what you get.  If you did alternate the thermometers in your first experiment then you could use the same data and just average the differences.  I'm sorry about the spotting, but keep your hopes up, brown blood indicates old blood.  FX!!!

[crystal_buffaloe]

I debated alternating thermometers versus taking them all in a row -- I took them all in a row, but I could repeat with alternating, or even try to take them both at the same time -- it would be an experiment, right? And DH is off work tomorrow ...

I think the reason they weren't increasing was that they weren't first morning temps -- DH and I were just sitting at the kitchen table while DD was napping.

My plan is to go back with the old thermometer starting tomorrow. I have one more FRER, too, since it came in a three-pack. I'm *really* hoping that my doctor is open first thing tomorrow (surely they wouldn't be closed for Columbus Day).

Can you tell me a little bit more about beta testing? What would be the purpose? To detect a miscarriage? Could they even do anything about it? -- I guess the progesterone if it turns out I'm deficient?

[crystal_buffaloe]

Since this is a lot more fun than grading papers, and also because everyone in the house is asleep but me, and finally because this is certainly a much more pleasant distraction than the other things on the internet I could be researching, I repeated the experiment -- this time, just me, lying in bed, alternating thermometers.


I feel reasonably confident that I can revise those intervening 9 temps up 1.1 degrees and carry on with my old thermometer. This is why you don't want to switch thermometers in the middle of a cycle, folks

[Jaimee]

What fun!     Well, now you can see when those temps dropped, you bled.  This would indicate a drop in progesterone around the time of expected AF.  This is not uncommon.  Usually it results in a temporary dip that causing spotting, but in your case, it dipped low enough to bleed.  Other than CD 50 the rest of your temps are above the CL, which makes sense if you're getting BFP's!  So I think the experiment was a success and your chart makes way more sense now.  I'm not sure why your dots are not connecting, though...  maybe it won't connect them if there is bleeding.  Hmm...

[monkeyscience]

Okay, just popping in to say I love the experimenting! It tickles my little science teacher heart. THIS is why you learn science, kids - so when something unexpected happens, you have the tools to try to figure out what the heck is going on in your life!

Oh, and about beta testing - it's testing your blood for beta hCG, the same stuff your pregnancy test is detecting. But with the blood test, the can determine the exact amount of hCG in your blood, which can be something of an indicator of if a pregnancy is viable. Much more useful, though, is taking 2 blood tests 48 hours apart and comparing the difference. In a viable pregnancy, the hCG levels should double about every 48 hours for the first several weeks. Dropping levels or slow doubling time can mean trouble, but unfortunately, there's not much they can do about it if your levels drop. You could also ask for a progesterone test, which would be separate, and they could give you supplemental progesterone if yours is low. Hoping your little bean stays sticky!

[Jaimee]

Originally Posted by crystal_buffaloe 

Can you tell me a little bit more about beta testing? What would be the purpose? To detect a miscarriage? Could they even do anything about it? -- I guess the progesterone if it turns out I'm deficient?

Sorry I didn't answer this, somehow I missed the post above your second data set.  But MonkeyScience answered pretty much exactly what I would have said.    If you have bleeding and BFP's, it should be simple to request the beta testing.  Like monkeyscience said, it's a quantitative test that gives you the exact amount of hCG in your blood, which should double every 24-72 hours, usually 24-48 hours, if the pregnancy is viable.   So they take blood every 2-3 days to see if your levels are doubling.  Then you can check out sites like http://www.betabase.info/showBasicChart.php?type=Single and drive yourself a bit crazy looking at the hCG levels at different DPO.     Around 6ish weeks the levels stop doubling and level off around 9-11 weeks.  Anyway, if your levels are not doubling well that is a sign that the pregnancy may not be viable.  If they are decreasing, that is a pretty definitive sign of m/c.   There isn't really anything you or your doctor could do if this was the case, but it can help you mentally prepare.  A progesterone test would be separate and I would think that a doctor would be fine ordering it since you did have the temp drop/bleeding.  If you levels are still on the low side then supplementing could help sustain the pregnancy.  If they are fine then the bleeding was likely just "bleeding with pregnancy" which happens to some women who go on to have perfectly healthy pregnancies.

Some people like more information and some people like to wait things out.  So go with your gut as to what step you take next!  And keep posting! 

[crystal_buffaloe]

I'm pretty sure that I'm miscarrying: my chart

I was trying really hard not to get my hopes up -- but then I got a nice, strong positive on Monday

and I had a really nice first pre-natal appointment on Wednesday ... ah, well.

The second line on my internet strips was just barely visible this morning, and the spotting I've been having turned into light bleeding with cramps tonight.

I'd decided not to get a beta HCG done, and instead just wait on the dating utlrasound in 2 weeks, but that was before the cramping. I may still just wait it out.

[Jaimee]

Oh no!  But it is hard to say what's happening b/c cramping can be normal and bleeding/spotting can be normal, but bleeding and cramping together is not a great sign, especially if the bleeding increases in flow and darkness...  I'm sorry that you're going through this!  If you are indeed miscarrying, it is possible that the bleeding your experienced originally was the start of the m/c and lingering hCG kept giving you BFP's.  But your temps are still above the CL, which adds some hope. 

I personally would go for the blood work, but again that's a personal choice whether you'd like to wait it out or not.  A 6 week u/s should show a gestational sac, fetal pole, and likely a slow heart beat (the heart beats slower when it first gets going).  Please keep us updated!

[crystal_buffaloe]

Not a sticky bean


Definite negative on my internet strip test this morning, a few more light cramps, and only the tiniest of barely visible faint lines on the Answer brand test.

So I'm going to go ahead and put the miscarriage in the definite category. It seems ridiculously early for a negative test. Do you think it happened when I had my "period" and is just now complete?

http://www.fertilityfriend.com/home/babybuffaloe

[Jaimee]

I do think that it is quite possible that the first patch of bleeding was the start of the m/c and your hCG levels remained just high enough to keep testing positive.  I can still see a BFP on the +/- test, though those are notoriously difficult to interpret.  I can't tell about the strip- I feel like I see something there, too.  But you obviously can tell better than I can! 

If you feel that it is negative, then I'm so sorry for your loss!  If you feel like you need additional support during this time please do not hesitate to post in the Pregnancy Loss forum.  There are a lot of wise and supportive mamas there that have been through this.  No loss is easy no matter how early.  I know when I had my second early loss that I was quite emotional for weeks, randomly crying, feeling down.  But as soon as my body was gearing up to ovulate again, I felt much better.  And many women experience increased fertility in the cycles just following an early loss.  I conceived dd right after my first early loss and conceived my son two cycles after my second loss.

Big ((HUGS)) mama!

[crystal_buffaloe]

Sorry I didn't post back to this -- I would say the test from Friday was positive, too, but the fact that it was so light at 24dpo combined with the bleeding that I knew it wasn't good. I went in for a blood draw on Friday and the HCG came back 23. I'm supposed to go back on Thursday to get them checked again.

I'm a little disappointed, but not sad really -- more pissed off, actually.

Thank you very much for all of the information and support, ladies. I really do appreciate it a great deal.

[BeachLove]

Sorry that you are going through this.