Can anyone explain to me why the LDS/Mormons continue to baptize the dead??? - Page 2

[pugmadmama]

Originally posted by applejuice
...You would not want the LDS to ask you or your religion to discontinue a particular part of your religion would you?

I most certainly would if it turned out that my religion was not respecting the rights of people to make their own decisions. I don't think anyone, of any faith, should have the right to try and change the decisions individuals have made here on Earth.

I love my BIL and SIL, and they are both born-again Christians who have been trying for ten years to "save" me. If I should become very ill, my husband is under strict orders to keep them far away from me. I don't want to be coerced or presured to change at my most vulnerable moment. If there is a G-d, then let G-d judge me for who I am and the choices I have made. I am especially repulsed by the idea of them trying to convert me after I'm dead. How disrespectful!

[seren]

Originally posted by Sheacoby
If they are only doing it to/for other Mormons fine but they should not disrespect other peoples' religion by doing it to them. In respecting their rights to their religion you can not take away someone elses' rights to theirs or their right to not be religious as well.

They will be able to accept or deny the baptism that was done in their name. We do it because we believe that you need to be baptised to get to the highest degree of heaven. But, if they do not wish to be baptised then they deny it and it's like they were never baptised.

[ldsapmom]

We believe the person who the baptism takes place for has the opportunity to accept or reject the baptism. I.E. Great Grandpa never learned about the LDS Church. The baptism is performed for him, and he now chooses if he accepts or rejects the baptism.

Also good to know, if an LDS member wants to submit a deceased person's name to have his or her temple work done, they must have the permission of the immediate family, if there is any.

I have also had the opportunity to participate in baptisms for the dead, and it was a wonderfully spiritual experience. I think people tend to get creeped out by the name -- some assume we are actually exhuming bodies to baptise. Not at all. It is done by proxy.

I love many aspects of attachment parenting. I have come to it slowly and it has made such a difference in my life. I want to share with everyone I know how much it has enriched my life and my family experience -- especially those who look like they are struggling or searching for something. When I encounter a mom or family who might benefit from even one aspect of AP, how selfish would it be for me not to share that with them? And I do not share wanting them to embrace the whole AP Philosophy, I just hope I can offer them something that might work in their lives.

I feel much the same way about my religion. So it makes sense to me that I give my ancestors the same opportunity to accept or reject these beliefs. Now whether they decide to accept it is their decision, but why should they not have the opportunity simply because they were not introduced to the LDS Religion in their lifetime on earth?

That's how I feel.

[kama'aina mama]

Is there any place I can register to never be baptised? Fill out an affadavit of some kind that I have heard enough about the church and have made my decision.. don't let some grandkid of mine pull a stunt like this?

[DreamerMama]

Kama~I hope there is, and when I find out my name will be the first on it and so will my children.

This is so disrespectful I can't evn put it into words. When I die, my devout mormon family better leave my name freakin ALONE!!!!

It makes me heartsick to know that when my dh and I die my family might do this to us. Ugh.

[ldsapmom]

Well I am heartsick as well.

Why waste time here? Why not record your feelings down for your posterity's sake? Better yet, speak to your family members who may go against your wishes after you die -- leave it in your will. I don't see why it would matter, if you don't believe in it, it would not pertain to you, would it? Wouldn't it just be null and void?

[kama'aina mama]

Stacie, I will try to explain this as gently as I can. I understand that to you this is a lovely gesture of outreach and inclusion. To many of the rest of us though it feels very different.

It feels like something being done to you against your will. It is a trespass on a very intimate, spiritual level. While I may not believe in your faith I do believe that ceremonies of many kinds, very intentional religious rituals, have power. I do not want anyone of any faith enacting rituals on my without my consent. Not while I am alive and not after my death. I am the author of my own spiritual destiny. I will make my own choices and I will live with them. Despite the caveat that an unwanted baptism can simply be rejected it feels like a very powerful intrusion on my spiritual being. It also feels like other people, in some cases clearly people I don't even know... trying to take control of my destiny from me.

I understand that this is not how the gesture is intended but that is how it feels to outsiders. Imagine how you would feel if I told you I had given information about you to a traditional Hawai'ian kahuna and asked him to do a ritual on you from afar. I suspect it would make you a little uncomfortable at the very least.

All that said... yeah, I could make it clear to my children that I want no part of this.... if I live long enough that they are old enough to have conversations like that. But will my grandchildren know? My great grandchildren? The children and grandchildren of my nine brothers and sisters? The decendents of my husbands 6 siblings? The odds are decent that eventually I will pop up on someones family tree who doesn't really know me at all and they will do this thing. And the thought of it makes me profoundly uncomfortable. So it occured to me to wonder if the Mormon church, which is quite large and very well organized, might have a list of this kind. If the answer is no or if you simply have no idea that is fine. But you have to be able to see that the way you all have this set up it is all but impossible for me to insure that anyone who might ever be moved to do this get the word that I would prefer they didn't... and having gotten it that they would respect it. This whole conversation started because some members of your church insist on continuing to baptise people after having been told specifically not to, both by their relatives and by your own church hierarchy.

[PurpleBasil]

No one can prove or disprove that no harm is being done to these deceased persons via the LDS baptism. Who knows for sure, right? Can anyone confidently tell me what is going on beyond the grave? No.

If the LDS administration felt it was appropriate to stop doing this in 1995, then they can stop again. For the same reasons it was fine with them to stop in 1995.

If the LDS need so many to be in heaven, then best they continue to work here on earth with consenting adults toward conversion via missionary efforts.

Or maybe all religions can start trading lists back and forth to baptise as they see fit. It can be a contest to see who can get the last baptism in before the end of the world! (this is meant as tongue in cheek).

I will definitely put in my living trust that I do not want to be baptised by any religion after my death. Again, not too sure what is going on there on the other side and I do not wish to have anyone accountable for my spiritual life but me.

The LDS folk can trust me to answer for myself when I meet my Maker, thanks very much indeed.

[applejuice]

alittle T

As for this usually being done only for the deceased, I personally know that a friend I grew up with and her entire family was baptised by proxy without permission.

Now that is wrong.

[tricia80]

Originally posted by applejuice

As for this usually being done only for the deceased, I personally know that a friend I grew up with and her entire family was baptised by proxy without permission.

Now that is wrong.

See that is very wrong... and intrusive... i wouldnt want anyone baptizing me in any religion after im dead... heck i didnt baptize dd in any religion when she was born.. its not my decision to make for her... when shes old enuff she can make her own decisions regarding her faith...


Keep me off the list too....

[Ann-Marita]

I, too, would like to be placed on a "Do Not Baptize" list. (Kind of like the "Do Not Call" list.)

I have been aware of this practice (babtizing the dead) since the early 80's when my mother joined the LDS religion for a short time. I have it in my will that no one posthumously baptize me into ANY religion. But I doubt that my will would be read and followed any longer than one or two generations. Hence the "Do Not Baptize" list.

Ann-Marita

[ldsapmom]

As for this usually being done only for the deceased, I personally know that a friend I grew up with and her entire family was baptised by proxy without permission.

I can assure you this is not done by the LDS Church, not ever, and especially not now. A person who is alive would NEVER have a proxy perform a baptism on his or her behalf. The thought is, if done for a deceased person, the person (as has been mentioned ad nauseum yet not acknowledged) is basically standing there in heaven or where ever, aware of what has taken place, deciding if he or she would like to accept. If a proxy stood in for a live person, how would the person ever know or be involved in the process? It clearly does not make sense within our belief system. That is not the way we operate.

So there may still be scoffing, and Kama, I appreciate the sincerefulness of your last post. Before that I felt like these beliefs many of us hold very dear were being mocked and kicked around. As I said before, we take our geneology sincerely. We fully believe in keeping records and journals so that our ancestors may learn from our life expereinces. If you truly want to get the word to your future relations, start a journal, spread the word to all your family members and make sure they are clear.

I guess if one beleived there was nothing after this life, it would be very threatening to have someone come in later, whern you were totally dead and gone, and make some sweeping movement that could disrupt the whole way you lived your earthly life. But we believe the spirit never dies, and that earthly death is just a temporary separation of the spirit and the body until the resurrection (whenever that will be). We also believe every person who ever lived will be resurrected, not just those who are LDS -- that it will be a gift to all people regardless of what religion they are, what they did in this life, or anything else.

As an aside, perhaps we are being mixed up with another religious organization, but we do not believe there will be or needs to be a certain number of people in heaven. The reason we believe so strongly in temple work is because we believe families can be togeter forever. My husband and I were married in the temple, and thus we were "sealed." All children who are born to us are then born under that sealing and we believe nothing, not even earthly death, will separate us after this life. So when searching out past generations, we are making a link of family connectedness, if that makes sense.

I am on the verge of wiping my posts away -- I feel like I am not being taken respectfully. Regardless of what I say here, people are going to believe what they want to belive.

[kama'aina mama]

I did acknowledge that. I commented that despite your assurances that it will only "count" if I choose to accept it... it still feels like a spiritual intrusion and I still just don't like it. You have to understand, everyone feels differently about things like this. There have been discussions here in which people said they did not feel comfortable having people pray for them in a religious tradition outside their own. That doesn't mean they think prayer is bad or wrong but it does mean that if you know that about them the respectful thing to do is to honor that. There is a strong indication that some members of your church are choosing to ignore that despite being told that they should. That is disconcerting. That makes me wonder if all the journaling and words spreading in the world would be enough to stop someone from doing this in my name at some later date and that is, as I mentioned, disturbing to me.

Also, you seem to have leapt to the conclusion that those of us who object to this do not believe in life after death. (If I misread your comment on that subject forgive me.) I won't speak for anyone else but for me you could not be further from the mark.

I hope that anyone who continues this discussion can try to do so mindful of the fact that they are talking about an important article of faith for some people. It is possible to disagree without being disagreeable.

[ldsapmom]

I am still feeling a little hypersensitive to this topic -- I keep thinking if the original topic had been "Can anyone explain to me why Muslims/Jews/JWs continue to (fill in the blank)???" more respect would have been assigned to the original tone. The three ???'s to me already signal the OP is not looking for explanations but wants to find others who also think this is an abhorant practice (and that is my hasty generalization).

I respectfully step out now with the hope one more eloquent than I can help with answers, if that is what is being sought. I just realized this is not how I want to spend my Easter Sunday.

Blessings (if you choose to accept them coming from one who is LDS). How about, Mama Blessings?

Stacie

[A&A]

Originally posted by seren
......... then they deny it and it's like they were never baptised.

Except, they were, perhaps against their (living) wishes. The PRINCIPLE of the thing is what so many here find disrespectful.

I would not want anyone of any religion (even immediate family members) performing a religious rite on my behalf after my death.

[tricia80]

Originally posted by ldsapmom
I am still feeling a little hypersensitive to this topic -- I keep thinking if the original topic had been "Can anyone explain to me why Muslims/Jews/JWs continue to (fill in the blank)???" more respect would have been assigned to the original tone. The three ???'s to me already signal the OP is not looking for explanations but wants to find others who also think this is an abhorant practice (and that is my hasty generalization).

I respectfully step out now with the hope one more eloquent than I can help with answers, if that is what is being sought. I just realized this is not how I want to spend my Easter Sunday.

Blessings (if you choose to accept them coming from one who is LDS). How about, Mama Blessings?

Stacie

I can only speak for myself but correct me if i am wrong u tend to believe that becuz ur LDS that is why we feel the way we do...i know mormons in my city and friends with them and i live like maybe 1/2 a block from a mormon church.. it does not bug me that whomever is doing what there religion is.. i would be equally upset if jewish, muslims, christians were doing the exact same thing.... to me its jus disrespectful... and the higher ups in the temple should be requesting info on the deceased and making sure they werent jewish... in order to abide by the 1995 ruling....

I dont feel there was any hate,prejedice, or dislike against LDS ppl who did this jus becuz they were LDS... it stems from the fact they were asked not to do such a thing and yet continue to do so.. and some of us Non LDS believe they shouldnt be doing it in the first place to anyone Non LDS...

i think that made sense...if anyone opposes me in my above statement do say so... as for my self i dont have prejudice against u becuz of ur religion where i am at in canada there are tons of different ethnicities and religions... including muslims, jewish, LDS, JW, Catholics, Christians, Pagans, Wiccans, Buddhists, Protestants and pretty much anything else u can come up with...

[pugmadmama]

Originally posted by ldsapmom
I am still feeling a little hypersensitive to this topic -- I keep thinking if the original topic had been "Can anyone explain to me why Muslims/Jews/JWs continue to (fill in the blank)???" more respect would have been assigned to the original tone. ..

I don't think the tone in this thread has been disrespectful but it has been heated because this is a very, very controversial topic. Trying to convert people after they are dead is simply not going to be seen as a loving gesture by everyone.

I want to thank kama'aina mama for articulating so well the problem I have with this practice...

"It feels like something being done to you against your will. It is a trespass on a very intimate, spiritual level..."

[lilyka]

As someone who is not morman, and never will be (no offense ) I just don't care if they babptise me by proxy. I guess I can see how they are coming from a place os love for me. It is nice tht someone i don't even know cares enough to cover me just in case. I don't see how this is any different than praying for someone. If someone did it while I was still aliver I would probably roll my eyes at them but still, wouldn't waste my time getting in a tizzy over it. They have a right to believe as they belive and they want to get baptized for me that is there business. If they want to pray for me, cast spells for me, dsance a jig for me whatever that is there business, it doesn't change who I am the choices I made or the legacy i left behind. I kn\inda see it as a loving way that thier faith honors someone. Kinda like saying we think uncle harry was really great even if he never joined us and we just want him to know that even though he is dead it is not to late for him to join us in the afterlife.

[LavenderMae]

Originally posted by kama'aina mama
I did acknowledge that. I commented that despite your assurances that it will only "count" if I choose to accept it... it still feels like a spiritual intrusion and I still just don't like it. You have to understand, everyone feels differently about things like this. There have been discussions here in which people said they did not feel comfortable having people pray for them in a religious tradition outside their own. That doesn't mean they think prayer is bad or wrong but it does mean that if you know that about them the respectful thing to do is to honor that. There is a strong indication that some members of your church are choosing to ignore that despite being told that they should. That is disconcerting. That makes me wonder if all the journaling and words spreading in the world would be enough to stop someone from doing this in my name at some later date and that is, as I mentioned, disturbing to me.

This is how I feel also. I am one of those who find it disrespectful when someone says they will pray for my soul. Which is done after I have told them my beliefs. Or because they assume I'm not saved just by who I am. Of course they are right since I am far from a christian, which is my right. I believe a lot of the time this is not done out of love but more out of judgement.
Anyway, I do think all religions need to recognize that they aren't the only one (or the only way to believe) and should be very careful about trying to convert the living and especially the dead!

[2much2luv]

I agree with lilyka, except i am Mormon. I wouldn't care what any other religion did for me wether dead or alive. But I hear what you all are saying and I think it is a shame that there isn't a "no baptize" list. You are absolutely right in saying that you should have that choice.