preschool teachers too harsh? - Page 2

[Evelynmia'smom]

I agree that the screaming is troublesome and I think it has decreased dramatically. The issue that I had yesterday was not that my dd was dealt with for her behaviour but how she was dealt with. As far as I was told she was not screaming and frightening people and thus had to be restrained. It was explained to me that she was having fun playing and screamed no at the teacher when she was asked to come sit down. I understand that rules have to be followed and my dd has to listen to the adults in charge, however if the only tool this educational professional had was to grab my dd by her shoulders and force her to sit while she was screaming crying and then proceed to leave her there crying then that is not a place for us. 

[One_Girl]

If she was scaring the other children, not listening to the teachers when they told her to stop, then not leaving the group to calm down I am not sure what you expected they would do besides leading her over to the wall and helping her sit down.  Leading her by the shoulders seems much kinder than taking all of her control away from her by carrying her there.  I am sure there are times when you have also made your child do something she didn't want to do and I don't see this situation any differently than I would if you posted about you making her sit (or go to her room) by leading her by the shoulders. 

Teachers will often give children space to calm down before discussing the situation with them, sometimes because they know that the child tends to escalate if they stick around to talk right away, sometimes because they know the child tends to want to be left alone, and sometimes because they child is pushing all of their buttons and they need to walk away for a moment to regroup.  Three year olds tend to have tantrums from time to time and I don't think they are bad teachers just because they walked her to a step and made her sit down then didn't give in to her just because she had a tantrum. 

I know that putting your child in care can be very hard because you give up a lot of control and you will never find someone who can do things exactly like you.  When your child seems to be struggling it is even harder to not feel stress and to not see negative motives in everything the teacher does.  Hopefully you can find some lessons to apply to the next time you choose care for your dd though, even if those lessons are to specifically ask about how situations like scaring friends and refusal to listen to teachers when told to do something are dealt with. 

[serenbat]

and screamed no at the teacher when she was asked to come sit down. I understand that rules have to be followed and my dd has to listen to the adults in charge, however if the only tool this educational professional had was to grab my dd by her shoulders and force her to sit while she was screaming crying and then proceed to leave her there crying

to the OP - had you been the teacher- what would you have done here?

how could she be removed as to not cause additional problems for the other children? where they to pick her up?

I think the screaming thing is a really big issue and you will need to deal with this sooner or later- while you say she did not scream at the other children, why do you fail to see that her screaming at the teacher is as problematic?

I hope you don't just view this one sided and that the teachers and school are all to blame here- it does not come across as just one sided 

if this is a problem only within this type of setting maybe she is not ready to be in "school", if it is a problem outside as well maybe more is going on here

[LynnS6]

Originally Posted by Evelynmia'smom 
How detrimental would it be to keep her home with me for the rest of the year and then put her in a 4's program? Will she have a tough time next fall after almost a year of no school?

Given that this school is not a good fit with your discipline philosophy, I think your daughter would be better off waiting a year.  Honestly, it sounds like they either don't have enough experience or enough staff. My kids' preschool and daycare (they were in both -- different places) only ever restrained a child when they were hitting someone. They would lead them, they would sometimes give them the choice of being 'helped' or walking on their own (usually this was the under 3s) to a quieter space. But they had the teacher to be with that child to work through the problem.

It sounds like your daughter doesn't transition well. It's a pretty common trait at 3. My kids do lots better when they have warning, time to finish what they're doing and get ready to change. Dd is 7, and her first response is still often "No!" "Dd, in 10 minutes, it's time to get your swimsuit on and go to swimming lessons." "no!" (which I ignore, as I've learned that arguing doesn't help.) In a few more minutes I'll say "Ok, finish up, in 2 minutes it's time to put your suit on." (no response). "Ok, let's get that suit on." And 95% of the time she does it. Her initial reaction is often "no". That "no" doesn't mean that she won't do it, it means "I need more time". I'm working with her on more appropriate language (actually saying "I need more time") as she's old enough where "no" is not OK. At 3, I wouldn't expect that kind of sophistication of expression.

I'd spend a year trying to figure out how to help her through transitions and try a different program next year.

[Evelynmia'smom]

Originally Posted by serenbat 

to the OP - had you been the teacher- what would you have done here?

how could she be removed as to not cause additional problems for the other children? where they to pick her up?

I think the screaming thing is a really big issue and you will need to deal with this sooner or later- while you say she did not scream at the other children, why do you fail to see that her screaming at the teacher is as problematic?

I hope you don't just view this one sided and that the teachers and school are all to blame here- it does not come across as just one sided 

if this is a problem only within this type of setting maybe she is not ready to be in "school", if it is a problem outside as well maybe more is going on here

It was my understanding that she wanted to continue playing, not that she was hurting or scaring anyone. When the teacher told her to come sit on the wall she refused and that is when the teacher physically moved her to the wall while she was screaming crying and left her there alone to cry. It is this that I have a problem with. I do not think this is one sided at all. My dd is a challenge and some of her behaviors are problematic, and I realize that the teachers have to help her manage these behaviors. However, if the only tool they have is to physically force her to do the things she doesn't want to do then that is not the place for her. She is a strong willed child and the methods that may work for more compliant children don't work for her. Isn't it the job of a professional to figure out the best way to work with her and if they can't to speak with the parents about how to best help that child? She was in a 2's program last year and while the same issues were there (not wanting to do certain activities and occasional screaming) the teachers really only had nice things to say about her and genuinely seemed to like her. My dd would run to one of the teachers and hug her and talked about her all the time. This is not the case with the teachers she has now. Anyway, I will try to find another school for her and will ask more detailed questions this time, knowing some of the issues that exist now. If, the same behaviors continue I will have to speak to her dr.

[serenbat]

 Isn't it the job of a professional to figure out the best way to work with her and if they can't to speak with the parents about how to best help that child? 

you stated in your first post that they had asked you and also they had to be concerned with all the children's safety at the same time- they are outside and this is not a one on one program- I really think it is unfair to expect that what they did was really so wrong, they took her from the group and made her sit

Not saying the teachers were right or wrong (because neither you or anyone here saw what happened) but I don't know what you expected to have happened- while you say she didn't scare others- didn't the -

 hysterically screaming crying 

cause up-set to the other children? 

if simply telling her no causes this outburst what are they to do with her- how are they to remove her from the others when she acts like this?

I think you will need to come up with a way to deal with this but keep in mind many programs are not set up for one and one and do not have that many teachers to just deal with one since they had other children outside at the same time and as you go with older age groups they have less of a teacher /student ratio in general programs

I hope you find what is needed and please look into doing programs with both of you, perhaps she will better start to understand what is required when she needs to transition. At some point if you do plan to do "school" maybe you could do a few days a week and work up to a full week program. If she is having no problems with you (transiting) maybe a few days a week might be the answer for her. Was this class at the same place she attended the other? If so, maybe you could talk to last years teacher and get their take on why the other teachers had such an issue.

[VocalMinority]

I'm making an assumption that, by "preschool", you mean a full-time program, while you work.  If this is a part-time, completely optional, enrichment sort of thing, surely you would just remove her, if people are yelling at her and she doesn't enjoy the class?

On and off for nearly 2 decades, I've taught preschool.  Mostly, it was at a co-op, which is delightful.  Kids are only there for a brief period, appropriate for their age and attention span.  When they start to get tired and act up, it's time to go home!  Co-op has a clearly-defined "learn-through-play" philosophy and kids spend most of the day choosing what interests them, from a variety of activities.  (Think Reggio light.)  Even in co-op, we occasionally needed to put a kid in time-out, but we weren't afraid to admit that to parents.  Parents volunteered in class and saw what went on; and teachers, parents and kids were all involved with each other in the community, outside the classroom.  There was a lot of comfort and trust.  Even my worst-behaved kid knew without a doubt that I loved her.  So did her parents.  We all still get excited, when we run into each other.  Parents and kids both recognized that, when a child violated other kids' rights somehow - and when that child could not be reasonably redirected - having him/her sit out until he/she calmed down enough to be considerate of others was perfectly reasonable and fair.  Not one parent ever got bent out of shape about me putting their child in time-out, but I didn't need to do it very often.

However, I've also had some experience in day-care centers that call themselves preschools, because the term "day care" drives away modern parents.  So does the phrase "time out"!  So full-day "preschool"s tend not to use that phrase, either.  That doesn't mean they don't use the practice, any more than avoiding the term "day care" means they aren't one.

There can be good day cares, and good day care employees!  But bad or good, a day care's most important relationship with parents is not community-building.  It's financial.  A day care must maintain the highest functional student-teacher ratios to stay afloat.  Even then it can't afford to pay employees a fraction of what they deserve.  A day care owner/manager has to be concerned with whether you'll pull your child out of their center, if you hear that they use time-outs; or if someone is honest with you that your child's behavior problems are more extreme than the norm.  So that owner/manager will intensely counsel employees to use careful verbiage, to sound like they never use stronger discipline than a calm, sugary suggestion that a child "make a different choice"; and to never tell parents a child's behavior amounted to anything worse than a "tough day".

But, honestly:  when you're caring for the highest allowable number of young children, in some cases for most of their waking hours, every weekday, all year long, you cannot possibly run things the same way as a 2-1/2-hour/day, 3-day/week, fall-through-spring program...and you absolutely cannot run things the way a parent at home with one or two of their own children would.  It is not possible to effectively - or safely - manage a day-care environment where every child can do whatever they want, all day; nor where disruptive behaviors like screaming or defiance are tolerated as an expression of the child's unique personality, as in some homes.  Although day-care employees shouldn't raise their voices or act frustrated with a child...if you spent all day, every day, not only with your own daughter, but with nine or more other kids her age who weren't yours, would you never yell or feel fed up?  Landing a job at a day-care doesn't make a person insensitive to stress.  They're not just playing with the kids and teaching them numbers and letters.  They're feeding, changing and comforting them and dealing with all the biting, hitting, swiping, crying, melt-downs, etc. inherent when kids spend all day away from their parents, in a highly social environment when they're too young to have many social skills.

If the current preschool is not a good fit for your daughter (and it sounds like it's not), you should look for a different one.  If her teachers are overwhelmed and don't speak to her professionally, look for a place with either an older, very experienced, very patient teacher; or a very young, energetic, idealistic one.  Regardless of your daughter's behavior, you are paying people to find a way to meet her needs while you're not there to do it, not yell at her.

But if you know some of her behavior is challenging, be realistic.   If you consistently hear (esp. from different people at different schools) that she is disruptive, upsetting to other children, defiant to her teachers, etc. you need to ask yourself:  Are the relaxed, permissive ways you may respond to her at home preparing her for the very social, structured, institutional environment you are choosing to put her in?  A child who is not taught the social skills to thrive in the environment she's put in - who alienates the other kids and constantly feels at odds with her caregivers - will not be happy in that environment.  Please don't read too deeply into this analogy, but raising a dog as a pampered lap-pet and raising a dog as a disciplined working animal (say, a seeing-eye dog) are both fine!  But raising a dog as a pampered lap-pet, then giving him to a family as a seeing-eye dog would be unfair to the dog and the family.  Likewise, certain combinations of child-temperament and child-rearing techniques are just fine for kids who will spend their childhoods in a free-spirited home-school environment.  But those same combinations may render a child unhappy and unable to adjust, in a life with day-care and public schools.  Whereas, day-care and public schools can be just fine for a child who has the tools to thrive there!  Decide what your family's and your daughter's needs are and try to be consistent.

Edited by VocalMinority - 11/7/11 at 7:46am

[zinemama]

I'm not sure why it might be detrimental to have your daughter at home the rest of the year. In fact, it might be a good thing - IF you use that time to work on her behaviors. While I think the comment about when she's 15 and in bars at night was totally inappropriate, none of the other things you describe sounded out of line for a kid with the behaviors you describe.

The screaming thing has got to be really disturbing for the other kids and teachers. That would be my first priority to work on while you're at home with her. I agree with the pp that if she is not being taught or being expected to use the social skills she's going to need in a preschool setting, it really isn't fair to put her into one.

[Evelynmia'smom]

Well I am trying to teach her these skills. I am not really very permissive, although I don't force her to do what she doesn't want to do. I usually have success with warnings and counting to 3 with her as well as giving her the choice to do something on her own or have me help her walk, sit etc. She was reay last year for school and did well under the teachers that she was with. As I said before I am not the only parent with problems at this school. The mix of these teachers and my dd's temperment don't mix and it is supposed to be a pleasant experience for her and for me as she is only there 3 days per week for 3 hours. 

[moominmamma]

With respect to the screaming, at least, though, I think it might be worth changing your approach. Rather than permitting her to scream (albeit directing her to do so upstairs) I think it would be helpful to make it clear that screaming is not an acceptable way to express emotions or communicate vocally any more than hitting is an acceptable way to touch people physically.

Miranda

[minkin03]

I think Jeanine's post has some great advice and insight. 

[joensally]

I highly recommend the book Kids, Parents and Power Struggles.  It's a very nice book with all kinds of ideas of how to support kids to grow into self-regulated people.  I would also recommend that the next time you look for a daycare or preschool program that you deliberately seek a school that has a number of special needs kids.  They will have a wider range of strategies to deal with a wider range of behaviours.  I am NOT saying your DD has special needs, but her behaviours are apparently outside of the experience this child care setting has had success supporting.

[Thisbirdwillfly]

Quote:

and you absolutely cannot run things the way a parent at home with one or two of their own children would.  It is not possible to effectively - or safely - manage a day-care environment where every child can do whatever they want, all day; nor where disruptive behaviors like screaming or defiance are tolerated as an expression of the child's unique personality, as in some homes. 

Very well said.

I am currently a preschool teacher.  I adore my kids and always treat them with respect but I cannot let them behave as I let my son behave when he was with me 24/7.  I wish I could!  But safety comes first and I can see myself helping a child to sit who just yelled at me and who wants to play during pick-up time as that is a very hectic time.  I would hate to walk away from a child who is crying but a child who is crying because she is not getting her way is very different than walking away from a child who is crying due to pain, anxiety or some other need, not a want but a need.  

Even my most challenging kids hug me in the morning and are happy to see me, just as I am happy to see them.  But the safety of all involved comes first, every time.

[Mizelenius]

Sorry if any of this is redundant-- have not read replies.

Originally Posted by Evelynmia'smom 

My dd had also a few times said she was put in time-out and that one of her teachers yelled at her and was mad at her. I was very upset about this and spoke with the director as well as the teachers and let them know my concerns.

Did your DD say they yelled at her?  Some children (and adults!) see any correction as yelling.

They explained that they don't use time outs but that is the language they use for when a child needs to be removed from a situation.

This is confusing-- they don't use time-outs but it's the language they use?  What do they do?

For example when I was describing the difference between my husband's discipline style and mine one of the teachers said "well, yeah, that's his daughter but just wait until she is 15 out at the bars"

I can't imagine any professional using this kind of language.

 During the meeting there was alot of emphasis put on how my dd does not want to do what the rest of the group is doing sometimes, ie. participating in circle time when she was enjoying playing with a toy or whatever.

Preschool is about choices.  Children should be OFFERED to participate in whole-group activities, but not forced.  Your DD is esp. young, too-- she is 3.  Only when they are 5 should there be more emphasis on doing things as a group, and even then . . .with some children who simply cannot come to the group, they should have their own routine.  It doesn't mean the child gets to do "anything" but they should have two good choices to pick from (in other words, not "do this or you will be punished"-- those are false choices).

Another focus for them has been her screaming. My dd has a high pitched scream that she will use to let someone know she is mad or to get attention. We have tried to work with her and I will send her up to her room if she wants to scream, but she continues to do it. 

The screaming is an issue for all children-- others should not be subjected to that.  As a teacher, I would have my assistant work one-on-one with her-- even removing her, but someone would be WITH her, helping her through it. 

Last week another mother told me that she overheard one of the teachers use a "harsh tone" when correcting my dd for screaming. She explained that she would not want someone speaking to her child that way. She also heard the same teacher say "evie do we need a time out already?"

Well, then they've been lying to you, since they DO use time outs.

This was news to me, no one explained this to me. She also said that my dd screaming was "frightening to the other children". I am going to be looking at other schools for next year, but I am not sure whether this is me being overly sensitive or if this is not the right school for my daughter.

A child who screams regularly as an instant reaction is a problem for other children.  What I would strongly suggest is that you wait until your daughter is at least 4 to try again. There is is a HUGE (and I mean huge!) difference between 3 and 4.  It does not sound like your daughter is having a good time in preschool.  There is absolutely no need to rush it.

[Evelynmia'smom]

Thanks for all of the advice everyone. I just wanted to update. I was able to get her back in the school she was in last year and it is like night and day. She actually wants to go. The teachers give me brief reports at the end of the day and it seems that she is adjusting really well. Anyway, I feel relieved and confident that I made the right decision. 

[mamazee]

Yeah it sounds like either she needed a move or she isn't ready for preschool yet. She shouldn't stay somewhere if she is unhappy there regardless of whether that particular preschool is a problem or whether she just isn't ready to do what is needed in preschool in general. She doesn't *have* to go to preschool at all, but waiting a year is fine too.

I agree with others that one hard part of putting a child in school is giving up control. I do the whole Alfie Kohn UP thing, and I promise you none of that happens in my daughter's school. It is very much about behavioral techniques. But my feeling is that the relationship she has with me and her father and her experience at home is her primary experience and what is more important. I had to have a change of perspective before I felt OK with schools putting my dd in time out or that kind of thing, but now I understand that, with so many kids, they do what they feel comfrotable with and what works for them in that environment, and school has still overall been a very positive experience for her.

[Emmeline II]

Originally Posted by Evelynmia'smom 

Thanks for all of the advice everyone. I just wanted to update. I was able to get her back in the school she was in last year and it is like night and day. She actually wants to go. The teachers give me brief reports at the end of the day and it seems that she is adjusting really well. Anyway, I feel relieved and confident that I made the right decision. 

[serenbat]

I was able to get her back in the school she was in last year and it is like night and day. 

what made you pull her in the first place from last years school?

IF for some reason things don't run smoothly I would not find another school at this point- too much disruptions can cause issues as well.

[Evelynmia'smom]

She had a great year at the school from last year, but it's not as academic as some of the others around here. I'm not sure how it is in other communities but around here you have to make a decision and pay the school year in november, so I made this decision last november. Anyway, I'm now less concerned about the "academics" as I am with her having a positive educational experience. I would not switch her again....that would be overkill 

[Thisbirdwillfly]

Glad to hear it worked out!