Anyone not vaccinate or selectively vaccinate their dogs?

[RabbitMomma]

We're getting our first dog soon, and vaccinations isn't something that I've looked into a whole lot yet. Our breeder says she does not recommend vaccinating as soon as vets recommend because she thinks it's too much to put in such a young dog's body, which I agree with and is why we are currently not vaccinating DD. But I'm a bit stumped as to whether or not vaccinate the dog eventually, and if so for what. I tend to think that dog vaccinations are a bit more useful than human vaccination just because of what is vaccinated against- i.e. kennel cough which is a bugger to get rid of once a dog catches it.

Anyway I'm interested to know what other mamas do with their dogs, would love to hear some thoughts on this!

[starrlamia]

please please please vaccinate your puppy for it's puppy shots! I dont know where you live but parvo is an incredibly heartbreaking disease that runs rampant in well populated areas. The reason why puppies are given so many shots so young is that they need to build the immunity, IMO puppy shots are essential, then boosters at 1 year and then you can vaccinate every few years or run titres and only vaccinate when neccessary. Distemper is also very nasty though much less likely to get. If you decide not to vaccinate, do not take your puppy out of your house, parvo is spread very easily and even if you have a fenced in backyard, squirrels and other wildlife can track it into your yard on their paws. Ive seen too many puppies die of parvo to not recommend getting the vaccines.

[RabbitMomma]

Thanks for the input, I know parvo is nasty which is why we probably will vax against it, I'm just not sure when to do so because I share my breeder's concerns that pups are given too much too soon. This is our first dog and I have yet to do any research on this (getting there, we have 3 more months until the dog comes so I've got time still). I was just curious what other's view on dog vaccinations was on here, especially from people who do not vaccinate their children. Again I've yet to do any research so this is just sort of a preliminary and very ignorant "just curious" sort of question!

[starrlamia]

you cant really compare children to dogs, because there is no such thing as herd immunity, and if the diseases such as measels and polio were as rampant as parvo and distemper then you would probably be rethinking your decisions. With a mortality rate as high as 48% its not worth the risk IMO, esp when the majority of cases are in pups under 3 months old. Parvo can live for months in one spot, and is easily transported to different areas by animals and humans, distemper is also easily spreadable and can also infect raccoons which can infect your dog. It also depends on where you are located too, there are some areas where it is more rampant then others.

I know quite a few vets, and the chances of any sort of reactions is extremely small, its about 13 for every 10, 000. If you google Dr. Jean Dodd's vaccine protocol, it is a very good guideline to go by, she has spent years studying vaccinations, their reactions and effects on dogs.

[Mirzam]

Originally Posted by starrlamia 

you cant really compare children to dogs, because there is no such thing as herd immunity, and if the diseases such as measels and polio were as rampant as parvo and distemper then you would probably be rethinking your decisions. With a mortality rate as high as 48% its not worth the risk IMO, esp when the majority of cases are in pups under 3 months old. Parvo can live for months in one spot, and is easily transported to different areas by animals and humans, distemper is also easily spreadable and can also infect raccoons which can infect your dog. It also depends on where you are located too, there are some areas where it is more rampant then others.

I know quite a few vets, and the chances of any sort of reactions is extremely small, its about 13 for every 10, 000. If you google Dr. Jean Dodd's vaccine protocol, it is a very good guideline to go by, she has spent years studying vaccinations, their reactions and effects on dogs.

What on earth does the first sentence mean? Dogs and human children are both living, sentient beings, and both can be effected by vaccines. Are you also saying that herd immunity is only a human thing and doesn't exist for canines? You are half right, there is no such thing as herd immunity in any species.

starrlamia, you believe what you believe which is fine by me. RabbitMomma, if you are into fear-based medicine the above post is reasonable. If you wish to look outside that paradigm and the bio-medical model then look elsewhere. 

Again, I have a completely unvaxed 15 month old puppy and like my completely unvaxed children (now 14 and 11), he is radiates with health and vitality. 

[starrlamia]

I was saying that you cannot compare the current state of diseases that are vaccinated for in children to diseases in dogs. The odds of your dog contracting parvo or distemper are exponentially higher then your child catching measels (for instance), the chances of your child dying from measels is also substantially lower then a dog dying of parvo. It isnt fear based medicine, it's looking at statistics and dealing with dogs on a regular basis that come from all walks of life and watching puppies die of parvo, wasting away and costing their owners thousands of dollars. There is no way to wipe out these diseases much like measels, polio and many others were almost wiped out by vaccinations, these are diseases that spread very easily, last for months in places and in the case of distemper cross species. There is no way to isolate an outbreak seeing as the parvo virus sheds before and after symptoms are shown and you need bleach or special chemicals to kill it.
 

The fact that your dog is healthy is good, but it is not because he isnt vaccinated, it is because he has not been exposed to the diseases they vaccinate against. Unlike human illness, in which you can simply sanitize and stay away from people who are exposed or infected, parvo is something you cannot possibly keep your dog away from 100%, while the dog may not come into contact with another dog, they can still be exposed to grass, dirt, concrete, feces, etc that have been contaminated by the virus, if you live in a high populated area and an area that has a high rate of parvovirus you are gambling with your dogs health. It isnt just puppies that get it, any unvaccinated dog can contract it without you even knowing it is there.
 

Originally Posted by Mirzam 

What on earth does the first sentence mean? Dogs and human children are both living, sentient beings, and both can be effected by vaccines. Are you also saying that herd immunity is only a human thing and doesn't exist for canines? You are half right, there is no such thing as herd immunity in any species.

starrlamia, you believe what you believe which is fine by me. RabbitMomma, if you are into fear-based medicine the above post is reasonable. If you wish to look outside that paradigm and the bio-medical model then look elsewhere. 

Again, I have a completely unvaxed 15 month old puppy and like my completely unvaxed children (now 14 and 11), he is radiates with health and vitality. 

[aeterna]

I do puppy vaccines (DHPP & a one-year rabies, plus bordatella if they're going to be in contact with a lot of strange dogs, like if you're going to attend a puppy training class), do a one-year booster (DHPP & three-year rabies, I usually don't need a bordatella at this point), and then update those vaccinations every three years (because titers are still aggregiously expensive here).

Vets typically recommend booster shots annually because it's the only way they can get people to bring their pets in for an exam annually - and like with people, regular medical checkups can catch things early in case something is wrong. Once my vet realized I'd bring my boys in every year for a checkup (heartworm, blood panel, fecal smear, biopsies, whatever they needed) regardless of their vaccinations, she had absolutely no problem with my preferred vax schedule, and my boys are as healthy and happy as you could expect them to be. =)

[babygirlie]

Mercola just put out an article that stated they reduced the amount of vaccines necessary for dogs. I'm not a dog breeder so I can't say too much about it.  I don't follow how dogs are more contagious than children statement. Dogs rarely get together.. they don't go to schools or over to friends houses so unless you go to a dog park and their feet pick up something that doesn't rub off on the way home... well I just don't follow.

My dog got her shots later maybe a year old and none since. so it's been about 12 years since she's had any shots. She has never been sick once in her life san a bee sting. Healthy as a horse. She has now and then visited other dogs for an afternoon but it's pretty rare. She was regularily walked.

I know kennel cough is a very mild disease. No meds needed for it. It's a 2 week cough.. sometimes a cold might also take place.. but it's extremely mild and doesn't affect the pet at all though you might be annoyed by the cough. It's also the least affective vaccine out there which is hwy it has to be given yearly as opposed to every 5 years for the other vaccines.

I do breed cats. I vaccine them on schedule since they are in a multi pet household and it's the rules in the association I'm with and yet they are always catching something on the wind. Currently they do have kennel cough. Dog has never caught anything from them ever despite the highly contagious bs. My cat coughs about three times a day. It's incredibly mild. Most people recommend bleach and wait it out. Perhaps all the vaccines I use aren't strengthening their immune systems at all. Many vaccines can cause cancer so I do choose ones without adjuvant (why can't humans have those?). But also as a breeder my cats are put in position to cross paths with hundreds of cats a year so it's very different than having an only pet. they say 90% of all catteries have had/carry herpies.. 90% carry/had corona virus etc etc etc down the line which gives you like a 500% chance of having something. It's a lot of work being a breeder. Bleaching everything down on a schedule (but bleach puts them into heat so yin and yang sort of thing).. all cats need to be washed in antifungal/antibacterial shampoo every time they might be breathing another cats air or some people not educated enough and pet your cat after petting a cat with runny eyes. very very hard.

If I had the opportunity I would do delay vax. Some small ones just aren't ready. I've had a cat suddenly become allergic to EVERYTHING after her rabies shot. If you feel she's at risk (like getting spayed) then I would but if you CAN delay and there's very little risk that's what I would do. And actually according to the label on MY vaccines if you wait until the cat is 16 weeks old they don't even need a second shot 3 weeks later (of course the vet won't say that).  Also I would ask the vet WHAT brand of vaccination they use so you can make a decision based on that also. like I said I won't use vaccinations that are killed and contain adjuvants that can cause injection site cancer (sarcoma). I personally use modified live.

[babygirlie]

http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2011/10/27/new-canine-vaccination-guidelines.aspx

[Imakcerka]

I've always found it odd that our farm dogs, (not vaccinated) as opposed to house dogs lived longer (vaccinated).  We had a lab/sheppard who lived to be 19.  Our inside vaccinated dogs didn't make it passed 12.  They were always getting some sort of ailment too. 

I only vaccinate them as puppies.  Then leave them be.  I take them in to get check ups but I refuse to allow the other vaccinations.  I have a huge issue with veterinary medicine

http://www.dogs-4life.com/pharmaceutical-cos-drug-dogs-for-profit.html

http://www.naturalnews.com/021935.html

http://www.mainstreetcentral.org/veterinary-health/pet-wellness-veterinary-medicine-loses-to-big-pharma.html

http://www.thedogplace.org/VACCINES/Vaccine-Debate-9908-1_Andrews.asp

Not the only ones I've read but they're the first ones that pop up in the Google search engine. 

[aeterna]

I wanted to add that I do my boosters every three years not because I feel that's the best spacing (five would be more ideal) but because I am obligated to maintain a rabies vaccine, regardless, and pairing the two is the best way for me to remember when they last got their shots! 

[starrlamia]

babygirlie, my point was that the diseases in dogs are much more contagious and much easier to catch then the diseases in children that are vaccinated for. If your dog steps in something that is infected with parvo, you cannot rely on it wiping off of the dogs foot as they walk, esp considering you can bring it in on your shoes and even your hands. If your dog was to lick it's paw before it is wiped off then it can contract it, if it eats grass that has come into contact with it they can contract it (dunno about your dogs but mine eat grass like they were cows!). It is also a very hardy illness, it can live for months in the environment and needs bleach or specific chemicals to kill it, so while you may not take your dog to a dog park or have contact with other dogs, if you take your dog somewhere another dog has gone, or where an animal who has come into contact with a sick dog has gone, your dog can contract it.

The mercola recommendations are not new, its the same ones Dr. Dodd's has recommend for quite a few years.

[Imakcerka]

I'm going to agree that Parvo is not something to mess with.  I vaccinate my puppies because I love them and would die inside if I had to watch them die that way.  Our friends dog died that way and it was HORRIBLE!
 

Originally Posted by starrlamia 

babygirlie, my point was that the diseases in dogs are much more contagious and much easier to catch then the diseases in children that are vaccinated for. If your dog steps in something that is infected with parvo, you cannot rely on it wiping off of the dogs foot as they walk, esp considering you can bring it in on your shoes and even your hands. If your dog was to lick it's paw before it is wiped off then it can contract it, if it eats grass that has come into contact with it they can contract it (dunno about your dogs but mine eat grass like they were cows!). It is also a very hardy illness, it can live for months in the environment and needs bleach or specific chemicals to kill it, so while you may not take your dog to a dog park or have contact with other dogs, if you take your dog somewhere another dog has gone, or where an animal who has come into contact with a sick dog has gone, your dog can contract it.

The mercola recommendations are not new, its the same ones Dr. Dodd's has recommend for quite a few years.

[Mirzam]

Originally Posted by starrlamia 

I was saying that you cannot compare the current state of diseases that are vaccinated for in children to diseases in dogs. The odds of your dog contracting parvo or distemper are exponentially higher then your child catching measels (for instance), the chances of your child dying from measels is also substantially lower then a dog dying of parvo. It isnt fear based medicine, it's looking at statistics and dealing with dogs on a regular basis that come from all walks of life and watching puppies die of parvo, wasting away and costing their owners thousands of dollars. There is no way to wipe out these diseases much like measels, polio and many others were almost wiped out by vaccinations, these are diseases that spread very easily, last for months in places and in the case of distemper cross species. There is no way to isolate an outbreak seeing as the parvo virus sheds before and after symptoms are shown and you need bleach or special chemicals to kill it.
 

The fact that your dog is healthy is good, but it is not because he isnt vaccinated, it is because he has not been exposed to the diseases they vaccinate against. Unlike human illness, in which you can simply sanitize and stay away from people who are exposed or infected, parvo is something you cannot possibly keep your dog away from 100%, while the dog may not come into contact with another dog, they can still be exposed to grass, dirt, concrete, feces, etc that have been contaminated by the virus, if you live in a high populated area and an area that has a high rate of parvovirus you are gambling with your dogs health. It isnt just puppies that get it, any unvaccinated dog can contract it without you even knowing it is there.
 

My dog is healthy is healthy because he is not vaccinated or has ever been subjected to pharmaceutical flee/tick meds or wormers, he is fed a species appropriate, raw prey model diet, he is loved and cherished and knows his place in the family. If the germ theory of bacteria and viruses causing disease is true, then he most certainly has been exposed to these "pathogens", he is not restricted to our back yard, he goes places including to the dog park where he is in contact with plenty of dogs, and I am sure some of them at any given time have been recently vaxed, so chances are very good he has come in contact with parvo and all the other stuff. 

Originally Posted by starrlamia 

babygirlie, my point was that the diseases in dogs are much more contagious and much easier to catch then the diseases in children that are vaccinated for. If your dog steps in something that is infected with parvo, you cannot rely on it wiping off of the dogs foot as they walk, esp considering you can bring it in on your shoes and even your hands. If your dog was to lick it's paw before it is wiped off then it can contract it, if it eats grass that has come into contact with it they can contract it (dunno about your dogs but mine eat grass like they were cows!). It is also a very hardy illness, it can live for months in the environment and needs bleach or specific chemicals to kill it, so while you may not take your dog to a dog park or have contact with other dogs, if you take your dog somewhere another dog has gone, or where an animal who has come into contact with a sick dog has gone, your dog can contract it.

You have no basis of proof that canine disease are more contagious than human childhood diseases. I realize that my views on how disease spreads is very foreign to you and most on this forum, but why if these diseases are so easy to get, hasn't my dog gotten them? He walks where other dogs have been, he eats the odd blade of grass, he sniffs other dogs butts, poop, urine etc, etc...

BTW, there is also no proof vaccines wiped out measles, polio and other so-called infectious disease.

[babygirlie]

my point was that the diseases in dogs are much more contagious and much easier to catch then the diseases in children that are vaccinated for

 is there some sort of study about that? There is only a handful of contagious diseases in pets while there are hundreds that children can get every year.. My child has been sick mor ein two years and only goes to school twice a month than my dog in 13 years of going for walks nearly every day for most of those years... Viruses in children don't magically disapear they stay in the environment for quite some time and humans get around a lot.. touch doorknobs.. sneeze in restaurants... I think humans are much more contagious. Children die all the time from them also.

And these aren't mercola recommendations it was the vets of america or whatever changed recommendations.. like the cdc to dr. sears. I'm sure there are many vets who agree with delayed vax ect. I don't even like Mercola that much but thought it was relevant.

[starrlamia]

i was talking specifically about illnesses that are vaccinated for like measles etc, not common colds, i know how sick kids get!

Mirzam, Im not going to argue with you further, while I am not blind and do question things, I also dont subscribe completely to all of the conspiracy theories surrounding vaccs and diseases, both sides of the debate present biased information.

[lonegirl]

Oh My Fricken Goodnes....I only read one of the sites so far.  Talk about conspiracies.  I have worked in the Veterinary field as a tech for nearly 16 years now....all I can do is roll my eyes and shake my head.

Our hospital just started following the AAHA (American Animal Hospital Association) guidelines for vaccines.  DHPP and rabies every 3 years and bordetella, Lyme and Lepto every year with an annual exam every year. https://www.aahanet.org/PublicDocuments/CanineVaccineGuidelines.pdf

Oh and by law in most places rabies is mandatory by law.  We had a cat at the hospital who bit 2 people the other day while being gently restrained for me to take blood.  Well 2 days later the owners decided to euthanize.  They chose to use a mobile vet.  Well when the vet found out it bit people (totally provoke) it had to be reported to the authorities and when they found out it was not up to date on vaccines they had to do mandatory rabies check.  The cat is to be quarrantined for 10 days and then upon euthanasia the head must be sent for testing.  We knew this cat did not have rabies but the other vet did not know this animal and is required to report it.

Originally Posted by Imakcerka 

I've always found it odd that our farm dogs, (not vaccinated) as opposed to house dogs lived longer (vaccinated).  We had a lab/sheppard who lived to be 19.  Our inside vaccinated dogs didn't make it passed 12.  They were always getting some sort of ailment too. 

I only vaccinate them as puppies.  Then leave them be.  I take them in to get check ups but I refuse to allow the other vaccinations.  I have a huge issue with veterinary medicine

http://www.dogs-4life.com/pharmaceutical-cos-drug-dogs-for-profit.html

http://www.naturalnews.com/021935.html

http://www.mainstreetcentral.org/veterinary-health/pet-wellness-veterinary-medicine-loses-to-big-pharma.html

http://www.thedogplace.org/VACCINES/Vaccine-Debate-9908-1_Andrews.asp

Not the only ones I've read but they're the first ones that pop up in the Google search engine. 

[Imakcerka]

Hold on, I'm adding more tinfoil to my hat!  If you disagree it's a conspiracy?  Nice. 

[rhiandmoi]

Dogs are vaccinated against actively circulating, highly contagious, often fatal diseases. I would be personally concerned about  taking home a puppy that the breeder herself considers too medically fragile for vaccination. Dogs should not go to their new homes until they have been vaccinated and altered and a responsible pet breeder would insist on this. 

[coffeegirl]

Originally Posted by Mirzam 

My dog is healthy is healthy because he is not vaccinated or has ever been subjected to pharmaceutical flee/tick meds or wormers, he is fed a species appropriate, raw prey model diet, he is loved and cherished and knows his place in the family. If the germ theory of bacteria and viruses causing disease is true, then he most certainly has been exposed to these "pathogens", he is not restricted to our back yard, he goes places including to the dog park where he is in contact with plenty of dogs, and I am sure some of them at any given time have been recently vaxed, so chances are very good he has come in contact with parvo and all the other stuff. 

And you're ok with this? I sure hope your puppies don't get sick and I hope none of the other dogs that unwittingly come in contact with them get sick either because they don't know that you've refused to get yours their shots.