Anyone not vaccinate or selectively vaccinate their dogs? - Page 2

[Mirzam]

Originally Posted by coffeegirl 

And you're ok with this? I sure hope your puppies don't get sick and I hope none of the other dogs that unwittingly come in contact with them get sick either because they don't know that you've refused to get yours their shots.
 

Wow. I am mostly certainly okay with this. My dog is not a repository of disease and is of no threat to vaccinated or unvaccinated animals. Your response is the kind of comment that non-vaxing parents are subjected to on a regular basis and laugh off.

[aeterna]

Originally Posted by rhiandmoi 

Dogs should not go to their new homes until they have been vaccinated and altered and a responsible pet breeder would insist on this. 

Actually, most responsible breeders home pets on a spay/neuter contract, because while it's certainly possible to alter a dog in those early weeks of life, there are developmental consequences to doing so. Breeders who breed for the love of their breed want their pups to look like their breed, and early alteration can have an effect on that. 

For instance, male Goldens grow into lanky teens and then, later, fill out in breadth. Early neuter makes it far less likely that they'll get that broad, manly chest and deeper bark which are hallmarks of the males of the species. 

Of course, the longer you wait the less health benefit you have, so it is a bit of a balancing game. But I want my dog to look the way my dog is supposed to look, so I tend to wait until they're done growing before I neuter them, and the amazing breeders I've had the pleasure of working with feel exactly the same way. ;)

[coffeegirl]

Originally Posted by Mirzam 

Wow. I am mostly certainly okay with this. My dog is not a repository of disease and is of no threat to vaccinated or unvaccinated animals. Your response is the kind of comment that non-vaxing parents are subjected to on a regular basis and laugh off.

And? Just because they laugh it off doesn't mean they're right.

[starrlamia]

I too waited to neuter my dog, he was a year and half. I think if a person can responsibly keep their male from breeding then waiting is the best option (you dont get the same benefits of waiting to spay a female), however unfortunately I dont think the majority of dog owners are responsible enough to keep an intact dog :(

 

Originally Posted by aeterna 

Actually, most responsible breeders home pets on a spay/neuter contract, because while it's certainly possible to alter a dog in those early weeks of life, there are developmental consequences to doing so. Breeders who breed for the love of their breed want their pups to look like their breed, and early alteration can have an effect on that. 

For instance, male Goldens grow into lanky teens and then, later, fill out in breadth. Early neuter makes it far less likely that they'll get that broad, manly chest and deeper bark which are hallmarks of the males of the species. 

Of course, the longer you wait the less health benefit you have, so it is a bit of a balancing game. But I want my dog to look the way my dog is supposed to look, so I tend to wait until they're done growing before I neuter them, and the amazing breeders I've had the pleasure of working with feel exactly the same way. ;)

[RabbitMomma]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhiandmoi 

Dogs are vaccinated against actively circulating, highly contagious, often fatal diseases. I would be personally concerned about  taking home a puppy that the breeder herself considers too medically fragile for vaccination. Dogs should not go to their new homes until they have been vaccinated and altered and a responsible pet breeder would insist on this. 

It's not a matter of health, it's the breeder's personal feelings on vaccines which have absolutely nothing to do with the pup's health. They'll be getting a vet check like usual just no vaxes.

Originally Posted by rhiandmoi 

Dogs should not go to their new homes until they have been vaccinated and altered and a responsible pet breeder would insist on this. 

Most breeders let their puppies go at 8 weeks, which is WAY too young to be altered. My breeder recommends that we don't neuter for at least a year and a half- we're getting a Great Pyrenees and with giant breeds you can get major health problems with bones and growth if you alter too soon.
 

Originally Posted by babygirlie 

Mercola just put out an article that stated they reduced the amount of vaccines necessary for dogs. I'm not a dog breeder so I can't say too much about it.  I don't follow how dogs are more contagious than children statement. Dogs rarely get together.. they don't go to schools or over to friends houses so unless you go to a dog park and their feet pick up something that doesn't rub off on the way home... well I just don't follow.

My dog got her shots later maybe a year old and none since. so it's been about 12 years since she's had any shots. She has never been sick once in her life san a bee sting. Healthy as a horse. She has now and then visited other dogs for an afternoon but it's pretty rare. She was regularily walked.

I know kennel cough is a very mild disease. No meds needed for it. It's a 2 week cough.. sometimes a cold might also take place.. but it's extremely mild and doesn't affect the pet at all though you might be annoyed by the cough. It's also the least affective vaccine out there which is hwy it has to be given yearly as opposed to every 5 years for the other vaccines.

I do breed cats. I vaccine them on schedule since they are in a multi pet household and it's the rules in the association I'm with and yet they are always catching something on the wind. Currently they do have kennel cough. Dog has never caught anything from them ever despite the highly contagious bs. My cat coughs about three times a day. It's incredibly mild. Most people recommend bleach and wait it out. Perhaps all the vaccines I use aren't strengthening their immune systems at all. Many vaccines can cause cancer so I do choose ones without adjuvant (why can't humans have those?). But also as a breeder my cats are put in position to cross paths with hundreds of cats a year so it's very different than having an only pet. they say 90% of all catteries have had/carry herpies.. 90% carry/had corona virus etc etc etc down the line which gives you like a 500% chance of having something. It's a lot of work being a breeder. Bleaching everything down on a schedule (but bleach puts them into heat so yin and yang sort of thing).. all cats need to be washed in antifungal/antibacterial shampoo every time they might be breathing another cats air or some people not educated enough and pet your cat after petting a cat with runny eyes. very very hard.

If I had the opportunity I would do delay vax. Some small ones just aren't ready. I've had a cat suddenly become allergic to EVERYTHING after her rabies shot. If you feel she's at risk (like getting spayed) then I would but if you CAN delay and there's very little risk that's what I would do. And actually according to the label on MY vaccines if you wait until the cat is 16 weeks old they don't even need a second shot 3 weeks later (of course the vet won't say that).  Also I would ask the vet WHAT brand of vaccination they use so you can make a decision based on that also. like I said I won't use vaccinations that are killed and contain adjuvants that can cause injection site cancer (sarcoma). I personally use modified live.

This seems sensible, I'm planning to meet with my vet soon to ask about vaccination options and see which ones he provides. 
 

[Mirzam]

Originally Posted by coffeegirl 

And? Just because they laugh it off doesn't mean they're right.

Comments like that show a complete lack of understanding of vaccinations. Try making a comment like that in the no vax or even the vax forum.

Edited by Mirzam - 11/6/11 at 7:44am

[Mirzam]

Originally Posted by Imakcerka 

Hold on, I'm adding more tinfoil to my hat!  If you disagree it's a conspiracy?  Nice. 

Proudly wearing my hat too! The conspiracy is the obscene number of vaccinations a dog is subjected to in its lifetime. Ever heard of PFLS (Patients for Life Syndrome)? I do think vets are for the most part well meaning but totally misguided unfortunately. 

[Mirzam]

Originally Posted by rhiandmoi 

Dogs are vaccinated against actively circulating, highly contagious, often fatal diseases. I would be personally concerned about  taking home a puppy that the breeder herself considers too medically fragile for vaccination. Dogs should not go to their new homes until they have been vaccinated and altered and a responsible pet breeder would insist on this. 

I can't let this one go. You seriously think it is beneficial to a puppy's life long health to be desexed before they are eight weeks old? No responsible breeder is going to "alter" their puppies as babies. Puppies that are not going to be show dogs will be on spay/neuter contracts. Responsible breeders of giant breed dogs like mine, would not want a dog neutered/spayed until 18 months to two years old. I have seen photos of pediatric desexed mastiffs and they a long and lanky with deformed paws and legs, very sad. It isn't that hard to keep an intact dog if you are a responsible, caring owner.

[starrlamia]

for once I agree with you Mirzam :P I think if at all possible dogs should not be altered young, however I do think in reference to rescues that it is a good thing.

 

Originally Posted by Mirzam 

I can't let this one go. You seriously think it is beneficial to a puppy's life long health to be desexed before they are eight weeks old? No responsible breeder is going to "alter" their puppies as babies. Puppies that are not going to be show dogs will be on spay/neuter contracts. Responsible breeders of giant breed dogs like mine, would not want a dog neutered/spayed until 18 months to two years old. I have seen photos of pediatric desexed mastiffs and they a long and lanky with deformed paws and legs, very sad. It isn't that hard to keep an intact dog if you are a responsible, caring owner.

[lonegirl]

I think there is a fine line on when to spay/castrate.  If left too late the risks of prostate and mammary tumours greatly increase.  3 weeks ago we had 2 cats that had mammary tumours.  They were spayed as mature cats.  We removed the masses on both cats.  One has since been euthanized because it had severely metastasised and she went down hill quickly.  The other is ok but on borrowed time.  I have also seen some nasty testicular tumors on dogs because they chose to not neuter their boy.  Also pyometra is not pleasant with those unspayed females and can be life threatening.  It is not healthier for a dog to go through a heat cycle first.  Each heat cycle increases the risk of cancer.

We generally recommend spaying around 5-7 months (6 months on average)

[starrlamia]

females have a much higher rate of mammary cancers then males have of testicular cancer, the rates of testicular cancer dont raise exponentially like mammary cancer and pyometria do, so while it is beneficial to avoid females going into heat, leaving a male intact for longer doesnt have the same effects.

[Mirzam]

Spay and neutering for "health" reasons is a very gray area, you can trade one possible health risk (cancer is not inevitable) for another, and you also open yourself up to a dog with behaviorial issues, especially with pediatric desexing. With neutering, I do not believe the health "benefits", in any shape or form outweighs the negatives of not altering a male dog from a health prospective, you can't cut out the entire endocrine system and expect nothing to happen. Lonegirl if the vet practice you work for was in the UK there would be no routine desexing, it is largely only done for health reasons unless a client really wants it, and most people leave their dogs intact. And guess what, there aren't millions out of out of control dogs roaming the streets of Britain. And the interesting thing is dogs in the UK live an average of two years longer than in America. They are for the most part fed the same kibble diet, they are vaccinated, although less and no rabies shot which is probably the worst of the lot, the only difference between the canine population of both countries is the US routinely desexes animals and the UK does not.

[starrlamia]

Mirzam, doesnt that make the overpopulation problem worse?

[Mirzam]

Originally Posted by starrlamia 

Mirzam, doesnt that make the overpopulation problem worse?

I don't believe there is a worse overpopulation problem in the UK than in the US, so the answer is no. Now, there is a great deal of evidence that there isn't actually an over population problem in the US either. But for the sake of this thread, I won't go there.

[RabbitMomma]

Originally Posted by Mirzam 

Lonegirl if the vet practice you work for was in the UK there would be no routine desexing, it is largely only done for health reasons unless a client really wants it, and most people leave their dogs intact. And guess what, there aren't millions out of out of control dogs roaming the streets of Britain. And the interesting thing is dogs in the UK live an average of two years longer than in America. They are for the most part fed the same kibble diet, they are vaccinated, although less and no rabies shot which is probably the worst of the lot, the only difference between the canine population of both countries is the US routinely desexes animals and the UK does not.

Do you have any stats that there is less of an overpopulation issue in the UK? Just curious because I moved to the UK about a year ago, and maybe it's just the area we're in but people seem to be ten times worse with respect to breeding when they shouldn't be and overall responsibility with an unaltered dog. I know loads of people who breed their dogs "because they felt like it" and always see dogs wandering the streets at night. Add to that the fact that everyone lets their dogs off leash on walks...but again maybe it's just the area we're in, we're sort of in the sticks!

[starrlamia]

how is there not an overpopulation problem? Have you worked in the rescue industry? Im not sure how millions of animals being put to sleep every year doesnt correlate to an overpopulation problem... Where did this evidence come from? ... Ive read stuff from Nathan Winograd, and while he has a few valid points he fails to point out why shelters euthanize millions of animals every year, they simply do not have the room to keep them all, not just because (except in the cased of HSUS.. thats another can of worms), the fact is that there are more abandoned animals coming into shelters everyday then they have room for or can adopt out, and unfortunately they dont have nearly enough funding to keep them all. Esp since the recession in which adoption rates have plummeted. His "no kill" idealogy sounds good on paper, but until shelters can get adequate resources to be able to keep these animals while providing the exercise and stimulation they need, keeping them locked in kennels for years on end with little interaction or exercise is cruel IMO.

Originally Posted by Mirzam 

I don't believe there is a worse overpopulation problem in the UK than in the US, so the answer is no. Now, there is a great deal of evidence that there isn't actually an over population problem in the US either. But for the sake of this thread, I won't go there.

[Imakcerka]

I don't think the problem is overpopulation.  Honestly it's the people who buy and sell dogs like it's a fad.  They're lives real lives and I wish that it wouldn't be so easy for people to just discard them like they would their trash.  I almost think pet adoptions should be as strenuous as adopting a child.   No I"m not saying children and dogs are equal so don't bash me on that one I'm saying a life is a life and while I type this cow dog my best friend is sitting on the couch next to me checking out her painted toenails.  I have a hard time thinking anyone could have discarded her they way they did.  Too bad for them because she rocks!  If the mindset was changed on how important their lives were I'm quite sure "overpopulation" wouldn't be a problem. 
 

Originally Posted by starrlamia 

how is there not an overpopulation problem? Have you worked in the rescue industry? Im not sure how millions of animals being put to sleep every year doesnt correlate to an overpopulation problem... Where did this evidence come from? ... Ive read stuff from Nathan Winograd, and while he has a few valid points he fails to point out why shelters euthanize millions of animals every year, they simply do not have the room to keep them all, not just because (except in the cased of HSUS.. thats another can of worms), the fact is that there are more abandoned animals coming into shelters everyday then they have room for or can adopt out, and unfortunately they dont have nearly enough funding to keep them all. Esp since the recession in which adoption rates have plummeted. His "no kill" idealogy sounds good on paper, but until shelters can get adequate resources to be able to keep these animals while providing the exercise and stimulation they need, keeping them locked in kennels for years on end with little interaction or exercise is cruel IMO.

[Mirzam]

RabbitMomma, I haven't had the same experience as you, I grew up in a small seaside town, my sister lives in the country in southern England and my brother lives in a market town in the midlands and when visiting them I also don't see packs of dogs roaming at night. I also asked the UK people on a couple of dog lists I am on and the same experience. 

As for the shelter issue, I don't believe it is any worse than the US, I know shelters in Britain take dogs from out of the country, Ireland and Cyprus being two places, so they must have space. The dogs from Cyprus are spoken for before they even hit UK soil. Now, I understand there are irresponsible people everywhere.

starrlammia, I am not going there with you. I understand why shelters feel they must desex their animals. I just wish they wouldn't do it to babies, that's all. And I agree with you Imakcerka, dogs (and all animals for that matter), are sentient beings and are entitled be treated as such.

[grab]

I live in an area very rampant with parvo (as in..working in a vet clinic, we can see a few cases each week). I do the puppy vaccine series, booster at one year and then vaccinate OR titer every three years. I do not do kennel cough vaccinations unless we are boarding our pets.   My elderly dogs are not vaccinated. (they have a pet sitter come to our home when we're away) 

I DO follow the Jean Dodds vaccine protocol  for puppies of waiting until 9 weeks for the first vaccine. And when I have Rabies given, I don't combine it with any other vaccines on that day.

[RabbitMomma]

Well our pup is here, and still unvaccinated. We have decided to wait until he is 10 weeks to start his vaccinations. Apparently Great Pyrs have been known to develop immune problems if vaccinated too soon. Thanks everyone for your advice and views, they were all really helpful. here's a picture of our boy :)