c-birth/c-section/surgical birth forum request - Page 9

[Drummer's Wife]

Originally Posted by alittlesandy 

Another thing people need to take into consideration with VBAC vs. RCS is that it's not always just a question of weighing the risks. For many of us, it's about availability. The one hospital in my town doesn't do VBACs, and the nearest hospital that does is almost three hours away, through a mountain pass. How I could even make that work in my situation is mind-boggling to me. The midwives I saw with my first pregnancy won't see me, so I'm pretty much left with UC or RCS.

Right. My 4th c-section says ERC in my chart, but it's not really a good description, IMO, though I get why they call it elective. No midwives or hospitals would touch me wanting a vba3c - even though the same hospital 2 yrs earlier let me attempt a vba2c.

Short of a UCa3C's, I didn't have any other options besides a repeat cesarean. I'm in a different state now, but I would assume if I got pregnant again I'd be forced into a 5th c-section (I've already emailed midwives to get a feel), but it's really not elective, yk?

So, as far as a forum here, there surely can't be some crazy rule saying no talking about elective c-sections (or elective repeat c-sections), because medically, it doesn't mean near the same as some might assume. It could be common sense that no one suggest c-sections for fun or "too posh to push" mentality.

[EuroMama]

I was also thinking, what I really want is to hear woman's stories who had cesarean and were successful at breastfeeding, or have ideas, tips, etc on how woman who have to have an cesarean can make breastfeeding work. I personally failed at it. I am still upset at the nurse who gave my DS1 a bottle right after my cesarean, he wanted nothing to do with my breast after that. I want to make it work this time around, and already made sure to tell my OB and hospital that I want to breastfeed as soon as my DS2 is here.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by AlexisT 

Medically, all surgery that is scheduled for the convenience of the participants is "elective." It has nothing to do with medical necessity. That's usually okay, because 99% of the time, no one has surgery without a medical indication. It's assumed that it exists and therefore the coding is strictly to do with planned or unplanned. Unfortunately, popular usage takes "elective" to mean "patient request." CS is an exception to this. You can ask for one without it being strictly necessary. The proper term for that is "Cesarean delivery by maternal request." I don't have a problem with the elective/emergent classification (it's not unique to obstetrics) but I do wish people would be aware of what it means medically and not ASSume things about "elective cesarean." You could have a transverse baby and a complete placenta previa, and your paperwork is going to say "elective cesarean."

I realize it's in common usage by the medical profession, but I do still object to it. The term "elective", outside of the medial world, has a very, very strong connotation of having been chosen. When someone is being required/pushed/coerced/whatever into surgery, calling said surgery "elective" is very misleading. If the medical profession used a word that actually meant what it describes, the confusion in common usage wouldn't have happened in the first place.
 

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by CI Mama 

I envision a forum where there could be a thread entitled "Celebrating our Cesearean Births" and another entitled "My c-section was birth rape" and neither of those would be shut down or presumed to describe the experiences of all birthing women.

Yes. This.

[McGucks]

Not trying to be a suck-up, but I am starting to feel really, really sorry for the mods.  They are going to have to make a decision about this and there is zero chance that their decision will be palatable to everyone.  Maybe they can find some middle ground...which will also made some folks upset...

[McGucks]

Originally Posted by alittlesandy 

Another thing people need to take into consideration with VBAC vs. RCS is that it's not always just a question of weighing the risks. For many of us, it's about availability. The one hospital in my town doesn't do VBACs, and the nearest hospital that does is almost three hours away, through a mountain pass. How I could even make that work in my situation is mind-boggling to me. The midwives I saw with my first pregnancy won't see me, so I'm pretty much left with UC or RCS.

Hey, interesting.  I truly had NO idea that hospitals COULD refuse to do VBACs.  Thank you for that perspective.
 

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by caedenmomma 

Hey, interesting.  I truly had NO idea that hospitals COULD refuse to do VBACs.  Thank you for that perspective.
 

I don't remember the numbers, and they're constantly shifting. But, the percentage of US hospitals who have banned VBAC at one time or another is very high. There was a very widespread ban a few years ago, after ACOG brought out a bulletin regarding the immediate availability of anesthesia.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by Jennifer Z 

I am upset.  I am upset that anybody would decide that I didn't have a "real" birth because it was a surgical birth.  I am offended that my experience of birthing my children is not valid enough to justify having a forum for "Cesearean BIRTH"  It is a BIRTH, not a surgical procedure.  I went through the work of pregnancy, labor, and a difficult recovery.  I have done the difficult, personal work to heal from the trauma of my first birth, and learned how to make my second birth as good of experience as possible (and it was a better experience than I thought was possible).  There is already a forum for birth trauma, and if you (general you) are still in the place where seeing the word "Cesarean BIRTH" makes you feel bad, then that is where you should be.  You should not take away the experience of all of the mothers here who have gotten through trauma, or never had trauma, to find their community, share the joys, share the stress, share the strategies for making the best out of the situations that occur, rather than dwelling on falling short of some ideal.

"Not a surgical procedure"? I don't even know how to talk to you about this, as you're plainly denying reality. I can see no reason why someone can't see it as a birth, in addition to being a surgical procedure, but as soon as you say that a process wherein a surgeon cuts you open in an operating room isn't a surgical procedure, you've lost me.

I'm not telling you how to label your experience. I'm saying that calling the forum "cesarean birth" is labelling everyone's experience. You're actually upset that your experience isn't valid enough to have a forum with the name you want? How on earth should one person's experience determine the name of an entire forum?? I'm certainly not asking for that  ("cesareans" is a compromise suggestion, as I've never thought of it as anything other than "c-section", or just "surgery" and "cesareans" contains all the possible perspectives). Somehow, I'm the one who is being upsetting? You have no right, nor does MDC, to put a label on my experience that doesn't fit my experience. But, you think you do, because it fits yours.

How does posting about your cesarean birth, in a forum called "Cesareans" take away your experience? Why do you feel the need to drive people with a different cesarean experience into a completely different forum? Several people say that MDC currently only "allows" people to talk about their c-sections if they're traumatized by, or ashamed of, them. Do you think it's better to only allow discussion of cesareans by people who aren't?  Telling someone who has had five c-sections that she shouldn't post in a forum about cesareans, because you don't like the way she sees her experience is...I don't even have the words.

[Wildwomyn]

The status quo at this forum is that you can only talk about your c-section in the context of trauma and/or being tricked by Evil Obs. Therefore, suggesting that there be a place for people who didn't have that experience would be broadening it, not limiting it (no one, at any point, suggested shutting out people who had bad experiences). I don't see it happening though.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by Wildwomyn 

The status quo at this forum is that you can only talk about your c-section in the context of trauma and/or being tricked by Evil Obs. Therefore, suggesting that there be a place for people who didn't have that experience would be broadening it, not limiting it (no one, at any point, suggested shutting out people who had bad experiences). I don't see it happening though.

Really?

Originally Posted by Jennifer Z 

There is already a forum for birth trauma, and if you (general you) are still in the place where seeing the word "Cesarean BIRTH" makes you feel bad, then that is where you should be. 

[Wildwomyn]

Suggesting that people who are clearly traumatized to the point of being able to allow a single discussion not revolving around their trauma and how bewildering and upsetting it is that everyone didn't have the same experience maybe consider voluntarily talking about it in a place focused on trauma is not the same as not letting people post their experience, although I grant the former is unlikely to happen. But it's ok, because they're not going to allow the forum anyway.

[EarthMamaToBe]

Originally Posted by Storm Bride 

Having read more posts, I'm just wondering - are those of us who were traumatized and who did hate our c-sections, going to be able to post in this hypothetical new forum? Or, are we going to be shut up, so we don't mess up everyone's vibe? I'm getting the feeling that a lot of people want MDC to be another shiny, happy "c-sections aren't so bad" place, just like pretty much everywhere else on the effing net. If that's what it is, that's what it is. But, the fact that MDC wasn't like that is the only reason I found this forum in the first place.

Except for threads about recovery tips and such, i'm very unlikely to post in the forum, anyway. I'm finding MDC surprisingly hostile on this subject, of late. I just want to know if the sub-context of "if you were traumatized, shut up, because we don't want to hear it", is intentional or not.

Look Storm Bride, I daresay there is not a person on the internet that does not know how you feel about C-Sections.  You were traumatized we get it and I am pretty sure there is already a forum called "Healing Birth Trauma" for you to post in.  If you are asking if you can go in and post your whole "C-sections are ebil" speech every time someone posts about a positive C-Section experience then I hope the answer is no.  I can't believe you actually think that "if you were traumatized, shut up, because we don't want to hear it" is the vibe around here b/c it is and always has been "If you had a perfectly fine c-section we don't want to hear it, you were birth-raped and traumatized and that's all there is to it"

Originally Posted by Honey693 

If there is a c-section forum I hope everyone is allowed to post in it.  Is everyone allowed to post in the UC forum , even if they had an awful scaring UC?  The guidelines for all the birth forums should be the same imo.

Well yes and no, you can post it but it WILL be promptly deleted.  This is why you never find stories of UCs with tragic consequences here.  If you read here you'd think all UCs work out just fine.

Originally Posted by TCMoulton 


Me too. If people truly believe that a c/s forum is inappropriate because it isn't what Mothering stands for does that mean that those people also believe that those of us who have given birth by c/s also do not belong?

That is the vibe here.  If you had a section it's YOUR fault for not birthing 'right'

Originally Posted by Honey693 

Mods, anything yet?  This is either the longest meeting ever or someone is hoping this thread will die and people will shut up.

Yep what it is now a 5 day meeting?

Originally Posted by Drummer's Wife 

FWIW, we have asked for a c-section board for years, and were told no, that it doesn't line up with Mothering's ideals. We can have a tribe, dedicated threads, and now social groups to discuss cesareans.
This is why I'm not holding my breath that anything has changed; however, so much about Mothering has changed ( yk, no magazine is a huge one), so maybe they are actually strongly considering allowing one.

Originally Posted by Emilie2 

This is so true... so much has changed.... and not all for the good.

Pretty much none of it for good IMO

Originally Posted by DoubleDouble 

I hope truth gets perpetuated there.

Inductions for ten women out of ten = Bad.

Telling a pre-e woman to eat a special diet and think happy thoughts = Just as Bad.

AMEN!  It's ok to tell someone to just stay home whose water broke a week ago and has mec stained water and no movement in days b/c dr.s are ebil but not to be happy with your c-section birth.  WTF?

Originally Posted by Wildwomyn 

The status quo at this forum is that you can only talk about your c-section in the context of trauma and/or being tricked by Evil Obs. Therefore, suggesting that there be a place for people who didn't have that experience would be broadening it, not limiting it (no one, at any point, suggested shutting out people who had bad experiences). I don't see it happening though.

Amen!  CS = ebil here an that's all there is to it.

[Michelle Renee]

I have to say I am following this and I am so frustrated.   Why does it have to be black and white?   Where is the middle ground?

I desperately want a third child.  My oldest was  an induction birth where they basically pried me open and pulled her out and the second was a c-section when I was 9cm dilated and my cervix had started to swell shut.  I had a homebirth midwife with me as a doula in the hospital and she looked at me after 20 hours and said it was time and off I went to the OR.   If I had a third birth, I am high risk due to an incredibly rare auto-immune disease and it would be easier for everyone if I would just schedule a c-section.  It would be safer for me because the doctors could have my specialists on staff and around and have things prepared...instead of waiting for me to go into labor and having a haphazzard crew of people who don't know me making decisions about my life and treatment.  I also have PTSD and that mentally I could prepare for a csection and have better support in place then spending 9 months preparing for a VBAC that puts my life on the line and 90% chance I will end up being sectioned anyway and feeling like a failure.

I am justifying this and I shouldn't be.  Where do I go to talk about this?  Where do I go to learn?  At least my Bradley teacher - she at least tried to find me information about a family centered c-section but it was too late because I was so determined to deliver my second baby vaginally and all of my energy went into that.  In the end, after my c-section;I woke up alone, no baby, no husband, no doula, during shift change and didn't know what the heck happened to me or if my Baby was alive or dead.  They had to knock me out during the section because I overdid it in labor and my uterus tore into my cervix.

After my first birth - don't you think, knowing physically how bad it was with my health- I could have at least had a peaceful c-section?  What if I would have spent those months prepping for that instead of IM NOT GOING TO BE INDUCED EVER AGAIN! HOW AWFUL!!!  when the reality for me is birth and me - just might not work.

Where do I go to talk and to educate myself?

[savithny]

Originally Posted by caedenmomma 

Hey, interesting.  I truly had NO idea that hospitals COULD refuse to do VBACs.  Thank you for that perspective.
 

In many areas of the country, it is almost impossible to find anyone to preside at a VBAC -- midwife or OB. 

What this means is that the MDC party line of "If you fail at birth and have a section, you MUST have a VBAC" is, for all intents and purposes, a party line that requires UC.  Because for a great many people, the only realistic way to VBAC is to UCAC.   

It's great to recommend VBAC and help women find a way to make it happen.  But all too often, the "help" is increasingly ridiculous:  "Hugs mama!  Have you considered quitting your job and moving to another state for your last month of pregnancy?"  "I know someone who drove 4 hours in labor to an unlicensed midwife!"   "Just don't tell your midwife about the section, and  hide the scar!"    

And people who say "Um, those are incredibly unrealistic things to do, given my life as it actually exists," are then told they can't talk about their c-sections at MDC, because saying "Those ways of attempting VBAC are incredibly unrealistic for me,"  is apparently exactly the same as saying "Csections are great! Everyone should have one to save their vagina from getting all stretchy!!"  

And women posting about making the best of the birth situation as it exists are accused of "promoting" sections.

[mamapigeon]

I keep hoping there will be word from the mods about their meeting...

[kitchensqueen]

Originally Posted by mamapigeon 

I keep hoping there will be word from the mods about their meeting...

Seriously - this is obviously an important issue to a good number of community members; it would be nice to hear the "official" position on it. I really hope that we haven't heard back because they are taking the time to really think on and discuss this, and not because they're hoping it will just go away. 

[Honey693]

Originally Posted by mamapigeon 

I keep hoping there will be word from the mods about their meeting...

Has anyone pm-ed CM to ask?

[JollyGG]

I only read the 1st page and the last up until this point. I agree that a c-section forum would be great. Lets be honest parenting, especially AP parenting, is hard while recovering from surgery. How do you maximize your chances for breast feeding, how do you co sleep with an older child who may kick your healing scar, how do you get deal with the longer hospital stay, where do you get help with when you don't have a partner and you aren't allowed to lift....

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by EarthMamaToBe 

Look Storm Bride, I daresay there is not a person on the internet that does not know how you feel about C-Sections.  You were traumatized we get it and I am pretty sure there is already a forum called "Healing Birth Trauma" for you to post in.  If you are asking if you can go in and post your whole "C-sections are ebil" speech every time someone posts about a positive C-Section experience then I hope the answer is no.  I can't believe you actually think that "if you were traumatized, shut up, because we don't want to hear it" is the vibe around here b/c it is and always has been "If you had a perfectly fine c-section we don't want to hear it, you were birth-raped and traumatized and that's all there is to it"

I'm not asking any such thing, and never suggested that I was. I have absolutely no interest in going into people's threads to tell them how to feel about their c-sections, and if a thread is specifically about the positive aspects, then I have no reason to be there. None. I thought we were talking about a forum, not specific threads within that forum. I really don't get how asking that the forum (if it happens) be titled something neutral equates to do doing my "c-sections are ebil" (condescending crap on your part, btw - I've never said they're evil, and I never will).

Well yes and no, you can post it but it WILL be promptly deleted.  This is why you never find stories of UCs with tragic consequences here.  If you read here you'd think all UCs work out just fine.

I've read posts here about UCs that went bad, and I'm almost never even in the UC forum.

AMEN!  It's ok to tell someone to just stay home whose water broke a week ago and has mec stained water and no movement in days b/c dr.s are ebil but not to be happy with your c-section birth.  WTF?

Amen!  CS = ebil here an that's all there is to it.

Seriously? What's with the "ebil" stuff? Just mocking the Kool-aid, or what?

Personally, I don't trust doctors, as a group, as far as I can throw them. With my history, trusting them would be stupid. That doesn't mean I think they're all "ebil". I definitely don't think cs="ebil". While I do think my mom may have avoided her first one (and hence her other two) if her labour had been "managed" differently, I'm also well aware that, at the time it was done, that c-section saved my older brother's life, and quite probably my mother's life, as well. I'd have a really hard time calling that "evil"...or even "ebil".

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by savithny 

It's great to recommend VBAC and help women find a way to make it happen.  But all too often, the "help" is increasingly ridiculous:  "Hugs mama!  Have you considered quitting your job and moving to another state for your last month of pregnancy?"  "I know someone who drove 4 hours in labor to an unlicensed midwife!"   "Just don't tell your midwife about the section, and  hide the scar!"    

I have to agree that some of the advice is really over the top, and completely impractical for the vast majority of women. (I suppose a few people could pull if off, if they really wanted to, but the number is ridiculously small.)

And people who say "Um, those are incredibly unrealistic things to do, given my life as it actually exists," are then told they can't talk about their c-sections at MDC, because saying "Those ways of attempting VBAC are incredibly unrealistic for me,"  is apparently exactly the same as saying "Csections are great! Everyone should have one to save their vagina from getting all stretchy!!"  

hmm...I don't see those as the same at all. But, then, I've also missed a lot posts about c-sections, because I've missed people being told they can't talk about their c-sections here. (And, yes - I realize these complaints don't apply to me, because I was traumatized, and did hate pretty much everything about my c-sections. So, it's possible that I did miss some stuff.) I know there's a certain segment of posters here who don't seem to ever believe there's a valid reason for a c-section, but it's not everybody, by a long shot.

And women posting about making the best of the birth situation as it exists are accused of "promoting" sections.

hmm...I suspect some of my posts fall into this category, in many people's eyes. I'm going to have to go back and dig, because the particular kind of posts that tend to set me off aren't just about making the best of one's sections. They tend to be the one's that project a "my experience was good, and if you do everything right, yours will be, too" vibe. Those, imo, are no different than the ones who basically say, "if you do everything right, you can have a perfect VBAC". Doing everything "right" doesn't guarantee you any particular outcome, be it a VBAC, a good c-section, a healthy baby, etc. Posts - on any side of the issues - that come across to me as making promises about outcomes, tend to set me off. And, I know that many people have completely misunderstood what I was reacting to.