Have you had trouble finding a pediatrician who wasn't milk obsessed?

[MrsSlocombe]

I'm editing most of my posts that contain personal information;  thanks for the responses to this one!

Edited by MrsSlocombe - 3/25/12 at 9:33am

[AAK]

I haven't ever looked for a "vegan-friendly" ped because this choice is new for me, and it still hasn't made its way to a whole family way of eating.  However, I must say, I never had much of a "milk" discussion with my ped.  It went like this:  They ask about foods, etc.  I would state that she received breastmilk.  Or, later, I would say Breastmilk and whatever the family is eating.  No one ever said "what is the family eating". . . My ped did let me know at the 12 month visit that I "could" give her milk now if I wanted.  FWIW, though we weren't vegan (not even me at the time), my oldest dd NEVER would accept milk.  She has always hated it.  However, it wasn't ever an issue at the dr.  

I learned early on to separate my parenting and life choices from the information that was medically relevant to share with the dr.  I don't care if he thinks it is fine for my child to CIO.  As long as I didn't complain about night time issues, I didn't have to hear about it.  I only brought things up if I was trying to rule out a medical explanation.  So, if we had a sudden change in sleep habits, I might question it.  Same would go for diet. . .if I thought that she was anemic or lacking or too heavy or allergic, I would bring it up.  Otherwise, I would state that she eats well and loves to nurse.  I always made sure they new she was nursing.  I wanted it to become more normal in the eyes of the medical profession to have a "non-baby" child nursing.  My ped was always very supportive of nursing though.  Same with our ped dentist.  

Amy

[MrsSlocombe]

Thanks!  It's good to know that they aren't all as obsessed as I've heard.  You make a good point about keeping doctors in their place, though I know so many families who have discussed nutrition with their pediatricians that I assumed it was the standard.  I would certainly never look to a doctor for advice on sleeping or discipline!

[AAK]

Yeah, the more I hear about what other people deal with when taking their kids to the dr.  I think I have a pretty awesome dr.  He doesn't always agree with me, but he has always been respectful of my choices.  

Amy

[Sayward]

This is totally unrelated to your question, and I hope you don't take offense. I certainly don't mean to be presumptuous. But, I read your comments in another thread, and you seem sort of . . . sad, or at least at odds, with your recent decision to include eggs. If it is truly just out of some abstract evolutionary sense, I thought I'd pass along this spectacular website that addresses those sorts of ideas: http://paleovegan.blogspot.com/

And also, just so I'm not hijacking this thread, how about a recipe for homemade fortified almond milk! http://bonzaiaphrodite.com/2011/10/homemade-fortified-plant-milk/

[Sayward]

Ooh also, here's the entry specifically on B12. Great stuff! - http://paleovegan.blogspot.com/search/label/B12

[Sayward]

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[MrsSlocombe]

I'm editing most of my posts that contain personal information;  thanks for the responses to this one!

Edited by MrsSlocombe - 3/25/12 at 9:37am

[catnip]

Low Vit D levels are SUPER common. Everyone in my family - mom, brother, cousins, aunts, uncles - all have low D levels. Mine were below normal before I started supplements, but way higher than any of my omni relatives, including my brother who is a whole foods locavore omnivore. You say your D level is on the low end of normal! That's what your body needs it to be, why would that worry you?

[Sayward]

This is a tough conversation to navigate. On the one hand, I don't want to patronize you or make you feel guilty for your decisions. On the other hand, if you do wish to remain vegan, I want to offer the information and support that might help make that possible. But I'm definitely coming from a biased perspective - I just wrote a book on vegan pregnancy, and I blog and write about vegan families, vegan children, and other such issues. It's definitely my passion, which is why I was so moved to join this conversation. But I'm not here to lecture anyone (and I'm certainly in no position to).

All that's to say, I hope you'll take what I say as it was intended - with love and without judgement.

I feel like what I'm hearing from you is that you ate a relatively healthy diet (unsupplemented, yes?) and then developed some deficiencies, and now you blame the vegan aspect of your diet. That's really common, but it doesn't necessarily make logical sense, since the vast majority of B12 and D deficiency occurs in omnivores. When omnivores get sick, they look at areas of their diet, make the necessary adjustments, and move on . . . but when vegans get sick, they look straight at veganism and then radically overhaul their entire lifestyle! It's understandable (we're a minority, in a culture where the convention tells us we're wrong), but again, it doesn't necessarily make logical sense.

Can I ask why you're opposed to simply supplementing? Also, are you trying to correct a B12 deficiency solely by adding in a few eggs a week? 

As far as vegan children, there are some vitamins and minerals that vegans are at greater risk of being deficient in - like B12, D, calcium, and zinc. However, omni children also risk deficiency - most notably in folic acid, iron, and vitamins C and A. As well, they often do not get nearly enough phytochemicals, antioxidants, and fiber, which can have serious and long-lasting health effects (including cancer). I'm not trying to be dramatic, but my point is that, there is no such thing as a perfect diet. Anybody who tells you different is selling you something. If you eat one thing, that means you are NOT eating this other thing. One choice displaces another. It's all a balancing act, but there's no perfect balance. Especially in this day and age where our food is mineral-depleted and GMOed and all sorts of other crap that makes it nearly impossible to get all the vitamins and minerals that we need every day, from our food (which is why I'm a big advocate of supplementing, but that's a whole other topic)

Also, I just wanted to say, I think that you see those "failure to thrive" threads, and others like them, because this is a place that people come seeking help and advice. It would never really occur to me, for example, to just start a thread saying "My vegan toddler is thriving! Just fyi!" Haha, ya know?! =)

But to that end, I live in Portland Oregon and I know a LOT of vegan children, and they are all beautiful and healthy and thriving!

Anyway, these are just my thoughts. If you want to chat privately, I'm totally there for you. I know how hard it can be to question your entire belief system (I really, really do). 

Whatever you decide, good luck to you!

~Sayward

[MrsSlocombe]

Originally Posted by catnip 

Low Vit D levels are SUPER common. Everyone in my family - mom, brother, cousins, aunts, uncles - all have low D levels. Mine were below normal before I started supplements, but way higher than any of my omni relatives, including my brother who is a whole foods locavore omnivore. You say your D level is on the low end of normal! That's what your body needs it to be, why would that worry you?

Thanks, Catnip.  I did wonder how most people are able to get Vitamin D. All my reading indicates that it is available only in certain fishes, and I know plenty of omnivores who make a disgusted face when fish is mentioned - that is, they don't eat it.  I suppose they are supplementing with fortified milk, cereals, vitamins, etc.  Did our ancestors rely totally on sunshine, and/or these specific fishes?

When I said "lower end of normal," I should have said very lowest, right at the border.  Normal is 30 to 100 and I am 30.  If I could be sure I'd be at 30 for life, I wouldn't worry, but in my mind, I was thinking that I must once have been higher and am on a steady decline, soon to dip below even 30.  (I've had my D levels tested only once, very recently.)

[MrsSlocombe]

I'm editing most of my posts that contain personal information;  thanks for the responses to this one!

Edited by MrsSlocombe - 3/25/12 at 9:39am

[catnip]

Mine was 25. My brother's was 12. My mom's was SIX. And we're all fair-skinned blondes living in California, and my mom had been on daily fish oil supplements for over a decade leading up to the test. I get more sun than either of them do, and had been vegan for 4 years when they ran the blood tests. My brother, as I believe I mentioned, is a TF-ish whole foods locavore. My mom eats a very SAD.

I actually only know of 2 people who have had their D levels checked and had them come back even low-normal, and one of those is my husband, who takes prescription D4 supplements for iatrogenic hypoparathyroid-induced hypocalciemia, so totally does not count.

You said that your levels had slipped, I take it you had a pre-vegan baseline to compare with?

[MrsSlocombe]

I'm editing most of my posts that contain personal information;  thanks for the responses to this one!

Edited by MrsSlocombe - 3/25/12 at 9:39am

[tooraloora]

This hasn't come up with my 15 month old son's doctor yet, but I doubt it will be a problem. I picked him because he was no-vax and intact friendly. He seems to be pretty cool about all my other choices so far, too. So far, any time he's had any concerns about anything I'm doing (which doesn't really happen much), he asks me why, I explain briefly, and as long it's obvious that I've done my research, he's content to move on. He just wants to see educated decisions, and he has (gently) given me some food for thought on a couple occasions. I love him. With my 6 year old DD's old pediatrician, he brought it up, I informed him we were vegan, he flipped and spouted off a bunch of crap (mostly about the necessity of dairy) which I shot down, he continued, and then I offered to see a nutritionist, which appeased him. The nutritionist was on my side. Doc was clearly not pleased with our diet, but DD was thriving and I had a nutritionist saying our diet was perfectly healthy, so he dropped it. I ended up dropping him, but not because of conflict over our diet. 

[MommyBecky]

I have been through several pediatricians. I always assumed that there would be a certain amount of "crap" I would have to put up with and would not really be able to put trust in the Dr. However, we moved to a new area about a yr and a half ago and found a doctor I actually trust. When I told him why we weren't really giving milk to drink (we do cheese) he was totally fine with foregoing dairy in general and gave us a list of other sources for calcium. He's always very respectful of our choices, tries to understand where we are coming from and  gently raises "considerations" if he disagrees. So, there are drs like that out there! You might interview a pediatrician and see where they stand in regard to veganism/vegetarianism.

[Sayward]

Originally Posted by MrsSlocombe 

Thanks for taking such a caring interest in me, Sayward.  I know how it is to be disappointed at losing vegans!  I have three formerly vegan friends who went back to eating meat, and they do so way more often than I eat eggs.  I was hoping for some sort of middle way, though I also know there is an argument that eggs (and dairy) cause more suffering than meat.  I had also hoped to participate in rearing the next generation of vegans, actually arguing against the negative population growthers that it was good for vegans to have children so that the diet will become more popular.

I can see how what I wrote before made it seem like I wasn't taking any supplements, but that's not entirely true.  I have occasionally taken a vegan multi over the years (then run out, not gotten any more for months, etc.), as well as, occasionally, calcium chews which contain vitamin D.  Last year, I got my B-12 and folic acid levels checked, and when I saw the low B-12 number, I started taking sublingual tabs.  (I had only been getting B-12 from nutritional yeast and the aforementioned, occasional multis before.)  My folic acid level was fine.  This year, I asked to be tested for calcium, B-12, and vitamin D.  My calcium level is fine, the D is low, and apparently, there was some mix up about B-12 because when my doctor left me a message with the results, she said "your folic acid is fine," possibly meaning she tested that instead of the B-12, which is disappointing.  As you note, vegans have no problem with folic acid, and I wasn't worried about it.  I'll have to call her today.

For the past few months (including a couple of months before I had the most recent test), I've been taking daily prenatals, along with the B-12 tabs a couple of times a week (each one contains a huge amount of B-12), and some calcium/D chews.  I'm also taking extra folic acid even though I have plenty because apparently it is considered some sort of miracle anti-miscarriage agent, and my fertility doctor told me to take an astounding amount.

That is excellent news about the healthy vegan children in Portland!  That is the kind of thing I need to hear, since, at the end of the day, my diet is probably going to end up being mostly vegan no matter what I try to sell myself.  My willpower just isn't that strong.  (In the Philadelphia area, the prevailing vegan sentiment seems to be that having children is bad, which sucks for me because I would like my child to be able to come home saying, "Lunch was fun.  Sophie was the only one eating meat at the whole table, but we tried not to make her feel bad.  Did you know that Ella, Henry, and Django are vegan?"  Or, at least, I would like to be able to FIND them a vegan group outside of school.)

Thanks for the offer to chat privately.  I think I need some time to think about what my and my child's long-term diet is going to be;  after that, I may well take you up on your offer of guidance.  Thank you for caring.

Totally understand. I'm sure you'll make whatever decision is right for you and your family.  =)

If it would help, here are a few sites/blogs that feature veg*n parents raising vegan children -

On VeganHealth - http://www.veganhealth.org/articles/realveganchildren

Twins! - http://www.ourveganpregnancy.blogspot.com/

High-raw mama - http://kristensraw.com/blog/ and http://greenmommyblog.com/

"Veggie Kid" series on Vegansaurus - http://vegansaurus.com/tagged/happy_veggie_kids

and mine - http://bonzaiaphrodite.com/

[mrscookie]

Doctors know so little about nutrition, I really don't care what they say about it. It would be nice to have a vegan ped, if only to support a fellow vegan, but it hardly ever comes up anyway. I remember at my 2 year checkup there was a questionnaire as to whether L ate this many servings of meat, fish, dairy, etc. and I just checked no on everything and nobody said anything. Maybe because I'm in California and people are more open minded. We supplement with B12 and D, and in my opinion, people should focus more on eating whole foods and not so much fake and processed / highly refined foods and quit worrying about protein etc., which are not real health concerns for almost all people. 

[MrsSlocombe]

I'm editing most of my posts that contain personal information;  thanks for the responses to this one!

Edited by MrsSlocombe - 3/25/12 at 9:40am

[MrsSlocombe]

Thanks for the answers about pediatricians, too!  I am reading all of them and taking in the information.  I really want to avoid being given a hard time, since I want doctors' visits to be as pleasant as possible, and not to have my child hear an "expert" say she should be drinking milk.