NO RECESS FOR YOU!

[Imakcerka]

Ok heres the deal, DD1 has not had recess this week and won't have it tomorrow.  She lost recess 3 times last week as well.   The days she doesn't have recess she goes to "Reflection" and has to write a letter that states why she is in "Reflection".   I'm here because...  and I will try harder next time to not do XYZ.  Then she signs it and I have to sign it.  The reasons she gets sent there vary, either she was interrupting her teacher, not reading during reading time or the latest poking kids in the back.  I feel that losing recess is enough and I don't need to do anything but discuss ways with her to abide by the rules and keep her rear on the playground rather than having to spend it writing me a letter.  Her teacher feels I should do more.  Like what though?  I should ground her and keep her inside?  I should make her write a million sentences?  I should scold her while wagging my finger at her?  I mean what more can I do other than talk to her about it?  She knows she's not getting recess because of the choices she's making.  She understands that.  By the way she's 8 almost 9.  I really don't think there is much more I can do. 

Other than that does anyone know any good ways to help her keep herself out of "Reflection".   I remind her how much fun she has at recess with her friends and we talk through the things she does,  poking people is wrong, interrupting your teacher is disrespectful... What more?

[One_Girl]

I typically just discuss things with my dd when she is in a cycle of not behaving at school and it works.  I tend to ask her why she didn't follow the rules, tell her my expectations for her at school, and ask her what her plan is for the next time.  She has never become physically aggressive though and I am not sure how well I would handle that.  It is one thing to not pay attention in class and another altogether to disrespect a teacher enough to interrupt them or another child enough to poke them so often that you lose recess. 

I can see how the teacher would be frustrated with your daughters lack of respect for authority figures and classmates as well as with the lack of effectiveness the strategies at school are having on her behavior.  Frustration often makes people wish that a harsh consequence would work a miracle on the one doing the frustrating behavior, but I think you need to try to stick to what normally works while also trying to figure out why your dd thinks she is justified in interrupting the teacher while she is speaking and in poking people. 

[Imakcerka]

Thanks, she says she just gets excited and she has a hard time stopping herself.  Since I was the same way I'd rather find healthy ways to handle this than to make her feel like she was just bad.  Oh and she wants to finish her conversations.  Also she's louder than other kids who are still talking but whispering.  My mom made me doodle when I felt like I couldn't stop talking, my teacher was cool with it and didn't consider it disrespectful.  DD's teacher says she can't allow that.  I do think it would help.  I didn't actually doodle I would draw straight lines when I felt I needed to talk. 

[khaoskat]

I would ask for a sit down with the teacher and if needed principal.  Missing recess is only going to make it harder for her for the rest of the day.  It is her one and only chance to get out the energy and talk.

I would ask the teacher if all students who talk when they are not supposed to are getting in trouble, or if it is only your daughter, because she has a "louder" than normal whisper.  IMHO, it needs to be applied equally to all students, regardless of how loud or soft their whisper is.

If you really think your child needs the ability to doodle, because she needs to relieve some need, I would also  mention looking into a 504 plan, that would require the school to allow her that.  She might just need something to better allow her the ability to redirect herself, and if she is even slightly hyper or over stimulated or whatever, it may allow her the ability to self regulate.

Teachers and Principals hate it when you mention 504's and IEPs...

But, I don't think, unless it is to excess, that recess should be taken away.  I would think in the end not only would it be harmful to the child, but could cause more outbursts in the classroom because of the lack of socialization and play time.

[FarmerBeth]

I don't think your daughter sounds disrespectful so much as busy!  I think as long as you reinforce that you expect your DD to follow school rules, her discipline losing recess should be enough.  I have mixed feelings about lost recess punishments.  It seems to me that the rowdy kids (I work in schools, I see lots of rowdy kids!) lose the recesses but need them the most to burn off energy.  I would try lots of direct modelling about the wanted behavior, rather than making her feel bad about the unwanted behavior.  Like, "Try talking about this loud" and show the expected volume.  Also, tell her directly what to do, like "When you hear your teacher talking, you have to listen until she sounds and looks done.  Then you can raise your hand to speak." or "Next time, whisper 'We'll have to finish this talk later' and then tell your friend the rest at recess' ".  I agree with you.  I was that sort of kid, too, and feeling more bad about managing to behave didn't help.

If doodling isn't allowed, you could try an unofficial fidget, like a bracelet with beads on it to fiddle with.

[One_Girl]

If you don't feel that your dd can handle a discussion about your expectations for her behavior without feeling badly about herself then you may want to consider setting up a meeting with her teacher (and possibly the principal or vice principal) to request that they find other ways to help her stay focused and on track without taking recess, especially if it isn't working.  I have seen teachers, even very good ones, get into very negative cycles with kids who don't use their self-control in school and it often seems to take a child from being a little unfocused to a child who doesn't feel they can have success at school and who stops really trying. 

There were several kids at the school I student taught at who very rarely had recess because they were constantly in trouble, my dd had a teacher who took a lot of recesses for a long time before my dd started talking her plans out with me, and my friend's son is in his fourth year of no recesses at the Montessori school he attends (he gave up trying for them about half way through kindergarten and nobody cared).  If what she is doing is truly little things like not stopping a conversation (versus actually interrupting the teacher during instruction time) then it seems like a big punishment for a little thing (though the poking others doesn't seem little at all but that is because a bully is doing that frequently along with other very rude things that slowly built up to poking right now so I am biased).

This article about the position statement of PE educators on taking recess away may also be helpful to bring up with the teacher or the school.  I found it very interesting.

http://w4.nkcsd.k12.mo.us/~rbeckett/RECESS%20AND%20THE%20IMPORTANCE%20OF%20PLAY.htm

[Mummoth]

If only there were a way for her to burn off all that excess energy she has, that causes her to misbehave... oh, I know!! She could go outside and be active for, say... 15 minutes? Right around mid-morning? That should do it. 

Ugh, sorry... my kids' school does this too. It seems so counterintuitive and backwards to me! The kids who have the most trouble sitting still and concentrating are the ones who need recess the most. I'd be tempted to tell her to get up and sharpen her pencil, go to the bathroom or water fountain, or find some other way to move for a few minutes anytime she starts to feel fidgety.

My daughter has eczema, so has the excuse that she's itchy and needs to put on some cream when she needs to move. DS is in 4th grade & finally has a teacher that doesn't require that they ask to get out of their seats, so long as they don't abuse the privilege, so he gets a drink from the fountain a few times a day, just to stretch his legs.

[karne]

Meet with the teacher and principal. In fact, I'd involve the guidance counselor as well. It sounds like your dd needs a behavior plan, and losing recess continually is not step one of a behavior plan.  FWIW, in some places I believe it is not actually legal to take away recess, and other states seem to be doing away with it.  I frankly think it's a very misguided view of the need children have for unrestricted movement during the course of the school day.  It's essential, and even more so for "itchy" kids.

I would want a better thought out plan for addressing my child's difficulty in the school setting than constant punishment, esp. if this is an ongoing issue.

[captain optimism]

I think this teacher isn't on top of her game, if she's asking you to work on your daughter's behavior during school time. She's the adult on site, not you. I'm also not clear on what is "disrespectful" about doodling to calm down, and I cannot fathom why any teacher would regularly deprive a rowdy kid of recess. 

I like the idea of a bracelet or other unobtrusive fidgeting toy. You could also challenge your DD to write down every word of the teacher's instructions at the beginning of a lesson, and make it into a game. Well, that would work with my kid, who loves to count and measure--not everyone is like that! He likes any quantifiable challenge, especially if he can earn points toward, well, anything. 

She could also get a wristwatch to check and time herself during reading time, to see how many pages she can read in however many minutes. Uh...again, that's something my kid would like, you have to judge whether yours would too. 

She might need more interesting books for reading time. 

She could also write notes to her friends instead of poking them. 

[Imakcerka]

GREAT IDEAS! 

I spoke with her this morning DD not the teacher as she was putting together some art stuff with a handful of kid helpers.  DD thinks theres not much of a point to try anymore since she's always in trouble anyway.  We don't do punishments at home just reminders and honestly she's great at home.  I did ask her what she thought would keep her busy and she said going home and hanging out with me.  NICE!  I'm going to email the teacher and see what if we can set up something this afternoon or tomorrow.  I really think I'll be able to get across to her that DD's actions are not malicious she just needs an outlet.  When she's at home she never sits unless DH has her on his lap while he plays a game.  But that's more of a curling up on dads chest kind of thing.  We once counted the times she sat down that didn't include sitting in the grass to play with worms and we counted 3 times... those were meal times.  She really hates sitting down, DH does too.  Wait when she drums she sits sometimes, stands if she's really into it. 

The poking thing really bothered me since we constantly discuss appropriate touching and behaviors.  Respecting others is my biggest thing.  The interrupting has to do with her still talking once the teacher starts talking.  If adults were held to the same standards as kids I'm pretty sure most of us would be missing recess. 

One more thing, I've been trying to make missing recess not a big deal.  I'll say things like oh good it was so cold this morning so it's probably best that you stayed in.  Or it's muddy out anyway.  I don't get mad at her for it I just want her to feel better about herself over all this.  She has a best friend who does get mad at her though.  She tells her shes tired of playing with the other kids and just wants her to be able to come out.  The little girl has hand signals she uses on DD to let her know to calm down or be quiet and DD says it works well but sometimes she can't help but talk to the kid next to her.  (HUGE CRUSH ON THIS BOY).  I've had kids moved away from DD before and it seems to not matter.  When the Teacher moves another kid next to her it's on.  In 1st grade she sat next to her best friend and she didn't get in trouble once.  However the little girl did get overwhelmed from constantly reminding DD to pay attention and I don't think that's fair to put back on her.   Her and DD are perfect friends since she's so quiet they really help each other out and have been close since kinder. 

Should I make a bigger deal out of it?  I'm wondering on my side if I should express my unhappiness with her behavior?  DH will argue with me up and down on this one and he feels it's ridiculous to put more on her.  Maybe hes just partial to being gentle with her.  She is after all his buddy. 

Either way I'm emailing the teacher now and seeing if we can set something up to talk about DD. 

[ollyoxenfree]

Originally Posted by Imakcerka 

  The reasons she gets sent there vary, either she was interrupting her teacher, not reading during reading time or the latest poking kids in the back.  

First, I dislike losing recess as a means of discipline. As others pointed out, a time for physical activity, play and a chance to decompress is an important part of the school day. I'd talk to the teacher about other possible consequences. 

I think at almost 9 y.o., she can acquire the social skills of listening politely when someone is speaking and waiting her turn to talk, participating along with others and keeping her hands to herself. Those are pretty basic for any social situation. At that age, role playing may work to help her see how disruptive and unwelcome her behaviour . How does she feel when she is interrupted, others don't listen to her and ignore what she needs, refuse to follow her instructions, and poke her or otherwise physically annoy her? 

If you observe similar behaviour when she is with you (and I imagine that interrupting conversations, speaking loudly and poking people to get their attention all carry over outside of school), you can remind her and correct her.  If you observe her avoiding this type of awkward social behaviour, then recognizing her efforts and giving positive reinforcement will help too. 

What is she doing instead of reading during reading time? If it isn't disruptive to the class, she is completing her reading at some point and reading ability isn't a concern, then this could be a separate issue to discuss with the teacher. Perhaps she needs some other quiet, non-disruptive activities for this time. It could be a problem, though, if the teacher has assigned reading and plans to conduct some class work based on the reading and your dd hasn't done it. 

ETA: Cross-posted with you. I'd be surprised if the teacher doesn't realize that your DD is not malicious in her behaviour. She still needs students to pay attention in class, participate in the assigned activity and keep hands to themselves. One thing that may help this teacher is to use extra signals to get everyone's attention when she starts speaking. I've seen a teacher  hold up her fist, and call for the class to listen. Then she slowly counts to five, pointing a finger on each count. The kids get a verbal and visual cue, along with a reasonable period of time to comply - to stop their own activity and conversations and focus on the teacher. It works really well. 

Edited by ollyoxenfree - 11/2/11 at 7:20am

[Imakcerka]

Originally Posted by ollyoxenfree 

First, I dislike losing recess as a means of discipline. As others pointed out, a time for physical activity, play and a chance to decompress is an important part of the school day. I'd talk to the teacher about other possible consequences. 

I think at almost 9 y.o., she can acquire the social skills of listening politely when someone is speaking and waiting her turn to talk, participating along with others and keeping her hands to herself. Those are pretty basic for any social situation. At that age, role playing may work to help her see how disruptive and unwelcome her behaviour . How does she feel when she is interrupted, others don't listen to her and ignore what she needs, refuse to follow her instructions, and poke her or otherwise physically annoy her? 

She doesn't like to be interrupted of course, and I think it's one of those things that you don't like other people doing and yet you don't realize you're doing it.  This is a constant issue in our house and we always correct that behavior with a reminder.  Good point on the touching issue, she hates that as well and that's why I'm very upset with her for doing it.  I just don't know how to express my unhappiness over this without exploding.  I'm seriously pissed because we had an issue earlier in the year and I felt it was important for her to realize that we didn't allow people to hit us or poke us.  There is a poker in her class and he had to be moved away from her and another boy.  And she's doing it now, when she hated it done to her... GRRRRR!

If you observe similar behaviour when she is with you (and I imagine that interrupting conversations, speaking loudly and poking people to get their attention all carry over outside of school), you can remind her and correct her.  If you observe her avoiding this type of awkward social behaviour, then recognizing her efforts and giving positive reinforcement will help too. 

I'm listening, how do I address it though?  Should I reminder that she is getting in trouble at school for the very same behavior?  It's actually pretty rare that she does things like this at home.  I have seen her smack at her sister and I take her away from the situation.  I'm really wondering if I'm not doing enough.  Or I just don't see it enough. 

What is she doing instead of reading during reading time? If it isn't disruptive to the class, she is completing her reading at some point and reading ability isn't a concern, then this could be a separate issue to discuss with the teacher. Perhaps she needs some other quiet, non-disruptive activities for this time. It could be a problem, though, if the teacher has assigned reading and plans to conduct some class work based on the reading and your dd hasn't done it. 

She's drawing or making something our of paper.  Sometimes the teacher tells them to put away the work they were working on and save it for homework.  She loathes homework so she'll try to sneak out her work and finish it before it becomes homework.  By the way she's the worst sneaker ever!  This is something we've been working at home relentlessly.  We are constantly on her for trying to do things she wants to do behind our back.  Things she knows she's not supposed to do and she always gets caught.   ALWAYS!

ETA: Cross-posted with you. I'd be surprised if the teacher doesn't realize that your DD is not malicious in her behaviour. She still needs students to pay attention in class, participate in the assigned activity and keep hands to themselves. One thing that may help this teacher is to use extra signals to get everyone's attention when she starts speaking. I've seen a teacher  hold up her fist, and call for the class to listen. Then she slowly counts to five, pointing a finger on each count. The kids get a verbal and visual cue, along with a reasonable period of time to comply - to stop their own activity and conversations and focus on the teacher. It works really well. 

We're going to have to find something.  Crud I'm willing to sit in that class right next to her if I have to.  My mama did it!

[ollyoxenfree]

Originally Posted by Imakcerka 

I think at almost 9 y.o., she can acquire the social skills of listening politely when someone is speaking and waiting her turn to talk, participating along with others and keeping her hands to herself. Those are pretty basic for any social situation. At that age, role playing may work to help her see how disruptive and unwelcome her behaviour . How does she feel when she is interrupted, others don't listen to her and ignore what she needs, refuse to follow her instructions, and poke her or otherwise physically annoy her? 

She doesn't like to be interrupted of course, and I think it's one of those things that you don't like other people doing and yet you don't realize you're doing it.  This is a constant issue in our house and we always correct that behavior with a reminder.  Good point on the touching issue, she hates that as well and that's why I'm very upset with her for doing it.  I just don't know how to express my unhappiness over this without exploding.  I'm seriously pissed because we had an issue earlier in the year and I felt it was important for her to realize that we didn't allow people to hit us or poke us.  There is a poker in her class and he had to be moved away from her and another boy.  And she's doing it now, when she hated it done to her... GRRRRR!

Those questions were more rhetorical, as possible discussion points if you role-play with her. Is she insightful and empathetic enough for role playing to be an effective method to explore these challenges with her? No doubt it is hard for her to recognize how other's view her behaviour and even harder to correct her impulses. There's a lot of talk about respect, but there's also an issue of empathy for the other people too.  I know it's difficult, good luck with the conference with the teacher and going forward with your dd.  

[Imakcerka]

Alright there will be a meeting tomorrow.  I actually went to speak with her at pick up but DD1 stopped me with a new note.  Today she hit two kids with a rubber band, punched someone in the stomach and she pulled the punchee's arm when she went to tell on her.  So, I'm going with DD1 is in deep poo and DH and I are so out of our league with this one.  I cried in the car.  I cried because so far this teacher has been awesome and when DD had a problem she took care of it right away and to top it off earlier today before all the "great" behavior DD confided in her that the boy next to her kept pinching her leg and she moved him on the spot.  WHY OH WHY?!  This teacher has been good to DD and she is someone she can trust with her problems SO WHY does she have to do this?! 

What should we do guys?  We don't normally do punishments just talk to her and the talking has gotten us nowhere fast!

[purslaine]

Have you asked her why she hit the kids today?  Is something going on?

In any event, I do not agree with loss of recess for most activities.  

I would not expect a child to lose recess for refusing to read (they will be behind, or have to do the reading at home...those are natural consequences).  I would not have a child loose recess for interrupting unless many warnings had been issued.   I work with school kids once a week (library visits) and some of them always interrupt.  Always.  It is common - and I simply let the silence of the other kids descend, and the talkees usually clue in that they need to be quiet.  

I would expect a child to loose recess for poking.  I would expect numerous recesses and other measure for punching, etc.

It is possible it is confusing for your daughter to loose recess over not reading and poking.  Lets face it - one is quite mild and one is pretty serious.

Perhaps you can work with the teacher on saving losing recess for serious issues - so DD can learn what is serious and what is not?  As you said, DD thinks there is no point in trying as she is going to get in trouble anyway.  She needs to have some glimmer of not being in trouble, or she is not going to bother.

I also wonder about how well your daughter fits with this teacher and this school.  She seems like such a kinesthetic learner - and it would be lovely for all of you if you could find a place that honours that.  I know it might not be possible, but the current school  might be trying to fit a round peg into a square hole.  

Hugs on todays violence - and hugs to your daughter.  I do not doubt you are frustrated and angry with her, but most kids her age do not lash out unless they themselves are hurting.

Edited by purslaine - 11/2/11 at 8:46pm

[captain optimism]

It sounds like she's having some problems with self-control. My kid is in third grade too, and it seems like the kids in his class are all over the map on these issues. You and she and the teacher (and perhaps the guidance counselor, as someone suggested above) can work this out together. So far people have suggested:

1. getting the teacher to stop taking away recess

2. giving your daughter something calming to do in class, like fidget with a bracelet or doodle 

3. role playing to give your daughter more social skills

4. making sure she has constructive activities when she finishes her work

5. Look into a 504 plan, if there is some indication this comes from a learning disability 

Your daughter is smart. She might not know exactly why she's doing these things, but she should be able to help you  brainstorm solutions for her, and then she'll be more likely to be on board. If she understands how she should be behaving and she's not behaving that way, she needs some help. It doesn't sound like she's being defiant or doing this on purpose. 

Originally Posted by Imakcerka 

Alright there will be a meeting tomorrow.  I actually went to speak with her at pick up but DD1 stopped me with a new note.  Today she hit two kids with a rubber band, punched someone in the stomach and she pulled the punchee's arm when she went to tell on her.  So, I'm going with DD1 is in deep poo and DH and I are so out of our league with this one.  I cried in the car.  I cried because so far this teacher has been awesome and when DD had a problem she took care of it right away and to top it off earlier today before all the "great" behavior DD confided in her that the boy next to her kept pinching her leg and she moved him on the spot.  WHY OH WHY?!  This teacher has been good to DD and she is someone she can trust with her problems SO WHY does she have to do this?! 

What should we do guys?  We don't normally do punishments just talk to her and the talking has gotten us nowhere fast!

[Imakcerka]

We talked a few minutes this morning but are going to meet after school while DD1 is at chess club.  What I found interesting was that her teacher called her over and asked her if she minded that we talk about what is going on in class without her there.  DD said she was fine with that.  And hopped back to her desk.  This teacher is by far the best teacher we've had.  I have told her before that DD1 hates being talked about she gets very anxious when she has found out I've talked to her teacher I told her teacher this at the beginning of the school year.  So this teacher is on the same page as us and was respectful of DD and has been the whole time.  I really think I'm the problem now.  I'm not doing enough to help DD through all this and advise her on better choices.  I don't like giving punishments at all but I think I'm going to have to come up with something. 

Anyone have ideas on what I could do at home after I've tried all the other suggestions?  I have a feeling this will be an ongoing thing.  She knows I'm not pleased with her actions and I let a lot of stuff go because I thought there was no need to even get on her about it other than talk to her about making better choices.  DH threw his hands up, we both feel lost on this one. 

[One_Girl]

I think that jumping from playing down the seriousness of losing recess to imposing a punishment is very drastic, especially since you don't normally impose punishments on your children.  If your dd thinks that you condone her poking because you try to help her see the positive side of losing recess then she may see the punishment as unfair and the effect of it won't be what you hope it will be.  Plus, when you go from not imposing consequences to coming up with a punishment it is very hard to find a punishment and make it work, even parents who routinely use punishment have a hard time making punishments work at times.  I have only done this a few times and it isn't a magic bullet or even all that effective. 

I think you need more information from the teacher and you need to let your daughter know that losing recess isn't a little thing and that if she continues to break school rules you will have to start imposing consequences before moving forward.  The school counselor may be able to walk you through some of your uncertainty as to how to proceed and she may be willing to talk to your dd to find out if there is a deeper issue causing her to act out in violence.  Our district school counselors are very good at helping kids sort out school problems in a positive way. 

[purslaine]

Originally Posted by Imakcerka 

Anyone have ideas on what I could do at home after I've tried all the other suggestions?  I have a feeling this will be an ongoing thing.  She knows I'm not pleased with her actions and I let a lot of stuff go because I thought there was no need to even get on her about it other than talk to her about making better choices.  DH threw his hands up, we both feel lost on this one. 

Be firm and address at home the big things - such as hitting.  IMHO the little things, such as not reading and interrupting, can be left at school.  She already loses recess over those, and has to write why she is in "reflection" - that is enough!  (more than enough......)

As per hitting, poking, etc....maybe she should sit alone in class?  While I feel for your daughter  (and the potential isolation she might experience) other children have the right to be kept safe.  If you cannot keep your hands to yourself, you do not get access to other kids.  

As per what to do at home - I would try to get to the root of what is causing the aggression.  Punishment is like a bandaid - and it does not really address the root issues.  I do not think punishments work in the long run.  Think of kids you know who are in trouble a lot - does punishment "fix it?"  If your experience is similar to mine, the answer is "no."  The times I have seen kids turn around in terms of behaviour it is due to underlying issues being addressed.

[Emmeline II]

I don't think that taking away recess is appropriate except for misbehavior at recesses.

Originally Posted by Imakcerka 
 

WHY OH WHY?!  This teacher has been good to DD and she is someone she can trust with her problems SO WHY does she have to do this?! 

What should we do guys?  We don't normally do punishments just talk to her and the talking has gotten us nowhere fast!

I would consider the possibility that there is more going on than "simple" behavior problems.

ADD in Girls differences between girls vs boys with ADHD

Predominantly Inattentive Type

http://www.greatschools.org/special-education/LD-ADHD/781-understanding-girls-with-ad-hd-symptoms-and-strategies.gs?page=1