NO RECESS FOR YOU! - Page 2

[LynnS6]

I wonder too if there's more going on here  --- she sounds seriously overwhelmed. If she can't sit still at home either, I'm wondering if she unmet sensory needs or yes, ADHD. Impulse control is indeed an issue with kids with sensory needs and ADHD.

I'd ask that the school counselor be brought and and share what you've shared here: "We're out of our league and don't know what to do next."

Personally, I wouldn't have downplayed the losing recess. I wouldn't have made a big deal out of it because I think it makes no sense to keep kids who've got too much energy in so they can't burn up their energy. We have a very similar system at our school (only it's called the Thinking Room). I think ds will get through elementary school without getting sent, but I'm sure dd will go at least once. Dd and I actually talked about the Thinking Room once and I asked her what she thought kids learned from it. Her answer? "Not much. I think kids who need to go to the Thinking Room need extra recess, not recess taken away." That's one wise 7 year old. But since this is an ongoing issue for your daughter, I think more does need to be talked about. Can she articulate what might help her?

Do you think the school would allow her to sit on a balance ball or seat cushion like this: http://shoponline.pfot.com/seatcushions.htm -- they are a little wobbly and actually help kids like your dd pay attention better. Because they have to focus on their core muscles to be able to sit, their need to move is taken care of and their minds can focus.

Could the teacher and your daughter work out a system where your daughter has someplace different to put her homework where she can't try to sneak it? (I can totally see my daughter doing this because she hates homework, and she doesn't like discussions that she's not in charge of!)

As for the hitting/punching what have you -- no clue there. It sounds to me like it's very uncharacteristic behavior for her, and so I wonder if there's something else going on -- is she stressed? is there some bullying going on? How are her social skills when compared with her peers? Third and fourth grade girls can be very mean -- it's really the start of their socialization, and they're not very subtle about their power plays! (It's one major reason I didn't push for our dd to skip a grade, when intellectually, she could have. She's got a late May bday and is already one of the youngest in the class. Her social skills are on the low end of typical for kids her age. You add that + her young age, and it can spell a social and emotional disaster.)

[Imakcerka]

Good News!  DD's teacher started off by saying she was done taking away recess because she felt it was unfair and did nothing to help her.  Her goal is consequences for actions and she knows DD understands what she's doing is wrong but that she has a hard time not doing it.  She feels that there is something more going on with her due to her grades, one test she'll get 100 the next a 20.  She can't for the life of her stay on task and according to her teacher when properly engaged by her she's blown away.  Apparently she asked DD to do some research for her while she had computer time and DD came back and literally recited so much information with cross information and more information to support the original information, then added in she'd probably need to look up a few more things because she felt there was more out there.  Got that?  Mouth full.  She feels DD needs to be in advanced classes but because of her inability to consistently sit through and finish her tests to her ability she can't move her without proof.  She didn't suggest medication but suggested a diagnosis if we were willing and possibly CBT again if we're willing.  Of course we're willing. 

So she's going to work out a new system with DD and together they will find a way to help her get things accomplished as well as stay out of trouble.  She started by moving her to an all boy table which she felt was necessary because the boys she moved her with are her friends but are all good at staying on task.  Today was a very successful day for her.  DD loved being at that table and felt more comfortable.  Her friends helped her stay focused and she didn't get in any trouble.  These are the boys she's on the chess club with and usually play with when she has recess or picks as partners when they partner up and she always does well with them.  That's a start.  Also she will no longer lose recess unless she is physical.  The physical thing is new and with help hopefully will no longer be an issue.

I am going to call our ped tomorrow and schedule an appointment.  Then we'll go from there.  Thank you all for your support and kind words.  This is why I come here to ask questions.

[journeymom]

Wonderful news!  Sounds to me like you've got a smart, bored girl there. Maybe you can get her tested for giftedness as well as attention issues?  My vague memory of my own kids' school policies is that they test for giftedness in 2nd grade. 

[tbone_kneegrabber]

Originally Posted by Imakcerka 

Good News!  DD's teacher started off by saying she was done taking away recess because she felt it was unfair and did nothing to help her.  Her goal is consequences for actions and she knows DD understands what she's doing is wrong but that she has a hard time not doing it.  She feels that there is something more going on with her due to her grades, one test she'll get 100 the next a 20.  She can't for the life of her stay on task and according to her teacher when properly engaged by her she's blown away.  Apparently she asked DD to do some research for her while she had computer time and DD came back and literally recited so much information with cross information and more information to support the original information, then added in she'd probably need to look up a few more things because she felt there was more out there.  Got that?  Mouth full.  She feels DD needs to be in advanced classes but because of her inability to consistently sit through and finish her tests to her ability she can't move her without proof.  She didn't suggest medication but suggested a diagnosis if we were willing and possibly CBT again if we're willing.  Of course we're willing. 

So she's going to work out a new system with DD and together they will find a way to help her get things accomplished as well as stay out of trouble.  She started by moving her to an all boy table which she felt was necessary because the boys she moved her with are her friends but are all good at staying on task.  Today was a very successful day for her.  DD loved being at that table and felt more comfortable.  Her friends helped her stay focused and she didn't get in any trouble.  These are the boys she's on the chess club with and usually play with when she has recess or picks as partners when they partner up and she always does well with them.  That's a start.  Also she will no longer lose recess unless she is physical.  The physical thing is new and with help hopefully will no longer be an issue.

I am going to call our ped tomorrow and schedule an appointment.  Then we'll go from there.  Thank you all for your support and kind words.  This is why I come here to ask questions.

BTW to the bolded: a teacher CANNOT suggest medication and no teacher worth their salt would ever risk their position by outright suggesting medication.  They might say "well have you asked your ped about these things?" as a medication related hint, but they are not qualified to diagnose or prescribe medication and frankly should not even discuss it with a parent

(I say this as a teacher)

[Imakcerka]

You're right she can't tell me to put my kid on medication, I originally asked if she thought through her 20 + years as a teacher if DD could benefit from a diagnosis.  I understand why she didn't bring up medication.  And again I appreciate that she recognized this isn't a bad kid.  One thing I did like is that she said having DD in her class is very enjoyable to her, she loves that DD is always smiling and generally always has a good disposition.  She doesn't concern herself with the pettiness of the other girls and she felt that from what she has seen has a strong sense of herself.  I'm gonna pat myself on the back for producing Awesomeness!  Hey I gotta get something out of all this!

[mylilmonkeys]

Sounds like you have it sort of figured out, but I'll just throw out there that sometimes my kids will pull this kind of thing because they are really having social issues on the playground.  It's an easy way to avoid bullying or some such.

[nextcommercial]

I didn't have the same behavior problems your daughter is having, but I couldn't follow along at all unless I took notes, or doodled on the paper.  I don't think I've ever turned in a paper that didn't have pictures drawn on the sides.  Especially around those little holes for three ring binders.  

Not everybody can pay attention and draw...but, maybe she can try that?  

[Imakcerka]

I did that in highschool.  My English teacher would shove plain paper on my desk with a jar of pens and say draw me something.  I'm 17 and drawing ridiculous things but it kept me focused.  Most of what she did was lecturing and if we weren't writing something that day I had to draw.  I thought it was stupid but it helped a lot.  Of course the other teachers wouldn't allow it. 

[Imakcerka]

She hasn't been on the playground in quite sometime.  Look I'm willing to do what I can to help my baby.  She doesn't feel good about herself when she gets in trouble and she hates missing out on recess.  I've got to help her get to a better place with her social behavior.  She deserves that from me.
 

Originally Posted by mylilmonkeys 

Sounds like you have it sort of figured out, but I'll just throw out there that sometimes my kids will pull this kind of thing because they are really having social issues on the playground.  It's an easy way to avoid bullying or some such.

[LynnS6]

It sounds like your teacher is a gem. I'm really glad that she's going to look for other ways to help your daughter stay focused and maybe for consequences that make sense to her. 
 

Originally Posted by Imakcerka 

I did that in highschool.  My English teacher would shove plain paper on my desk with a jar of pens and say draw me something.  I'm 17 and drawing ridiculous things but it kept me focused.  Most of what she did was lecturing and if we weren't writing something that day I had to draw.  I thought it was stupid but it helped a lot.  Of course the other teachers wouldn't allow it. 

I doodle all the time at meetings. It really does help me focus. Knitting does the same thing for me too. I was working on dd's Gryffindor scarf during the last faculty meeting. It worked really well for me (it also kept me from hitting one of my colleagues who was being a jerk).

[Mummoth]

I'm glad the meeting with the teacher went well... it sounds like she's a good one! Hopefully the changes will make things better for your DD :)

[Emmeline II]

Originally Posted by Imakcerka  She feels DD needs to be in advanced classes but because of her inability to consistently sit through and finish her tests to her ability she can't move her without proof.  She didn't suggest medication but suggested a diagnosis if we were willing and possibly CBT again if we're willing.  Of course we're willing.

Originally Posted by Imakcerka 

I've got to help her get to a better place with her social behavior.

Assuming she has ADHD, it appears to be affecting her alertness or responsiveness to the educational environment, which would qualify her as OHI under IDEA and allow her to access services like ST (for social reciprocity and pragmatics), and behavioral support/legal protections. The eval for OHI should include educational testing as well.

Under IDEA/IEP, if your child has a disability that adversely affects educational performance, your child is entitled to an education that is designed to meet the child's unique needs and from which your child receives educational benefit.

A 504 is helping your child get the same education that everyone else is getting--more for a student that needs accommodations to help them learn (like sitting next to the teacher) or for behavior, and that they are not punished for things that they cannot control due to the ADHD (like needing to work standing up or not sit inside a group).

So far we've had two 504 meetings (the initial meeting in September of last year and a review in May); the first meeting has ds' teacher, the elementary school principle (K-12 school), the school psychologist, the resource teacher, a I think 1 or 2 others. Having a diagnosis isn't required for a 504 but it helps move things along.

I've heard a lot of parents say that they didn't want to "go there" yet with a 504/IEP so I want to add that

An IEP or 504 is not an escalation or punishment for the teacher/school. It's more about getting all appropriate parties involved and on the same page. The student, parent/legal guardian, teachers, principals, Pupil Services administrators, support staff (i.e. nurse, counselor, psychologist, language/speech pathologist) as well as the student's physician or therapist, may be involved in the placement process including the 504/IEP meeting.

Before I knew that ds might qualify as OHI we had a more thorough evaluation (after his initial diagnosis) at a hospital clinic that included the educational testing. I think it is a good idea to get private evaluations if you are able; clinics, like the above, tend to be less expensive than doing educational testing through and individual private practitioner like a psychologist.

Facilities like this sometimes offer social skills classes for children; these classes can be hard to find and it's taken me a year to find classes offered during the school year and on our insurance.

When you call your ped I'd ask if they have a teacher evaluation form for ADHD that you could get filled out prior to your appointment. The Conners Test is more for evaluating hyperactivity and isn't helpful in evaluating for ADHD subtypes.

ATTENTION DEFICIT DISORDERS EVALUATION SCALE
 

ADHD Connors Test

 

Eligibility under IDEA for Other Health Impaired Children

Key Differences Between Section 504, the ADA, and the IDEA

Is a Child with ADD/ADHD Eligible for Special Education? - Wrightslaw

Gifted Children with Attention Deficit Hyperactivity ... - Wrightslaw

Twice Exceptional Children: Gifted Students with ... - Wrightslaw

2e - Gifted and ADHD

Edited by Emmeline II - 11/4/11 at 7:15am

[captain optimism]

Wow, I can see why you like this teacher! It sounds like she put a lot of thought into this to change her mind on what she should do and how to address these issues. 

That's really wonderful. I'm glad she can see what a terrific kid you have in your DD. I hope this will all work out so that she gets support to behave well in class and learn.

[FarmerBeth]

Sounds like you have a good teacher!  You should be able to work out a good plan together.  Your daughter is a good age to get an evaluation and figure out some things that will work for her.  It's nice to figure things out earlier on while your daughter's grades aren't suffering too much and her confidence is up.  Two of my three kids (the two boys) needed adaptations but for different reasons.  The younger one had the help from early on and I find he's a lot more comfortable in himself.  Not the only factor, but I do think it contributed.

[Imakcerka]

I am excited!  DD came home yesterday over the moon.  What a great day she had.  She got in trouble only once for talking but when she got in trouble her teacher came over and placed her hand on her shoulder and didn't say a word.  DD knew she needed to calm down and worked hard the rest of the day.  We already have a stong trust built up between DD and her teacher over other things that happened earlier in the year with a boy that wouldn't stop messing with her.  Her teacher took it seriously and fixed the situation without making a fuss over it.  Something like helps DD to see that this adult is someone she can count on. 

[minuway]

Gifted kids often look hyperactive / ADD - its called a psychomotor overexcitability. My dd-7 is like this, its one of the reasons we homeschool.  She sounds a lot like your dd! If you could ask for testing through the school though, that could be the first step toward getting her into a gifted program. Good luck!

[Imakcerka]

Thank you for the article.  That's what her teacher was trying to tell me friday when we spoke again.  She wants to find ways to help her get through her moments.  DD has taken the gifted test but didn't finish it in time because she got distracted.  Actually the last few questions on the test she didn't answer correctly according to her teacher she noticed she didn't even read the questions just picked an answer and then went back to coloring her nails with marker.  NICE!  The first part was all correct. 
 

Originally Posted by minuway 

Gifted kids often look hyperactive / ADD - its called a psychomotor overexcitability. My dd-7 is like this, its one of the reasons we homeschool.  She sounds a lot like your dd! If you could ask for testing through the school though, that could be the first step toward getting her into a gifted program. Good luck!

[minuway]

Haha, awesome! I haven't done the gifted testing route, but I've read that its good to get them individually evaluated, although you might have to press on the school a bit more for them to do it. I thought of your post the other day when my dd7 was doing her math work while balancing with one foot on a kitchen stool. She was completely able to concentrate as long as her body was doing its own thing. What a nightmare she would be for the classroom teacher though! I sympathize, sister!

[Imakcerka]

Thanks,  I had a teacher that would let me draw straight lines while she talked.  It really helped.  DD1's teacher is open to anything.  We're pretty lucky.