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study on redshirting

post #1 of 75
Thread Starter 

FYI.

 

http://www.foxnews.com/health/2011/11/01/month-child-is-born-impacts-educational-future-research-finds/?intcmp=obinsite

post #2 of 75

Where was this study taken? I assume England since they take the British Ability Test. England typically offer studies on why being the youngest is a negative but they also have a substantially different education system. 

 

post #3 of 75
Thread Starter 

Yes - England.

 

2 out of my 3 kids who have late birthdays.  1 is currently homeschooled, one is in a brick and mortar school.

 

I am fine with one kid being the youngest in the class - academically she could probably even skip a grade.  I would have reservations  with my other being youngest in the class.  She is young for age with a late birthdate - I don't think it would be a good mix.

 

While not disregarding what the research says entirely (and it is England and may or may not apply elsewhere), I do think tailoring these decisions to individual children is the way to go.  

 

 

 

 

post #4 of 75

The article isn't about redshirting. It doesn't sound as if any of the children in the study were held back. In order to study red shirting, one would need to compare kids who were redshirted to those who weren't but were otherwise statistically the same. 

 

They didn't do that. They compared the oldest kids in the class to the youngest kids in the class and found the oldest ones did better.

 

So, how are we to have classes with NO youngest children?
 

post #5 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post

Yes - England.

 

2 out of my 3 kids who have late birthdays.  1 is currently homeschooled, one is in a brick and mortar school.

 

I am fine with one kid being the youngest in the class - academically she could probably even skip a grade.  I would have reservations  with my other being youngest in the class.  She is young for age with a late birthdate - I don't think it would be a good mix.

 

While not disregarding what the research says entirely (and it is England and may or may not apply elsewhere), I do think tailoring these decisions to individual children is the way to go.  

 

 

 

 

 

I agree that it's child specific and decisions should be made based on who a child is individually. However, these decisions often are made with poor information, lack of experience, over-sentiment or the desire to make a perfectly average and capable child an academic/atheletic star. I absolutely support the very small percentage of kids who could use the extra year but I've also been witness to what happens when it becomes the norm.... not pretty.

 

Mine are both youngest in their class (one due to grade skip, the other due to birthday) and we are grateful for it. 
 

 

post #6 of 75
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Linda on the move View Post

 

 

So, how are we to have classes with NO youngest children?
 



We aren't, obviously.

 

The question is whether or not you think your kid is a good candidate to be youngest.

 

For some kids the answer is yes - others it may be "no".

 

I do hear whatsnext on how if large groups of parents redshirt it will not be pretty.

 

None-theless it is my job as a parent to do what I think is best for my kids.  If I think it is delaying, I am going to do it.

 

Redshirting is not common at all where I live.

 

 

 

 

 

 

post #7 of 75
I'm not sure that article is about red-shirting. Red shirters would be the oldest in their classes.

Maybe brick and mortar schools should separate by six month marks rather than year marks.

I have two bright winter born children so this wasn't an issue for us except..... that the red shirted kids in their classes are so much bigger than the rest. These kids tend to be the leaders and the bullies because in some cases, they are almost a whole year older than my kids.... being that they were held back and sent in late by their parents. My kids were little in Atlanta where redshirting was a very popular practice with boys.
post #8 of 75
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by whatsnextmom View Post

 

I agree that it's child specific and decisions should be made based on who a child is individually. However, these decisions often are made with poor information, lack of experience, over-sentiment or the desire to make a perfectly average and capable child an academic/atheletic star.

 


 

 



I respect that your opinion is your opinion and you seem against redshirting...however I think it is a little assumptive to judge parents who do redshirt as ill-experience, ill informed, over sentimental, etc.  

 

I do not doubt most  of them looked at the research and their child ...and simply made a different call then you did.  It does not make them ill experienced/informed, nor does it mean they are trying to produce academic stars.  

post #9 of 75
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by philomom View Post


Maybe brick and mortar schools should separate by six month marks rather than year marks.
 


That might help - particularly in in the very early grades, and with wiggle room if someone clearly seems old or young for chronological age.  

 

 

post #10 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post



I respect that your opinion is your opinion and you seem against redshirting...however I think it is a little assumptive to judge parents who do redshirt as ill-experience, ill informed, over sentimental, etc.  

 

I do not doubt most  of them looked at the research and their child ...and simply made a different call then you did.  It does not make them ill experienced/informed, nor does it mean they are trying to produce academic stars.  


You need to come visit lol. We have a Dec 1st cut-off and red-shirting children born after June is the norm. We even have started having extreme cases. DS had TWO kids in his kindergarten class turn 7. SEVEN! Parents are very open about their wanting to give their child "an edge." As a preschool teacher, most parents felt their children were immature when they were perfectly average for their age and equal to the other children in class. A large percentage felt their children were "behind" when they were academically average. Even when told, your child is right where they should be, they start to ask if holding them back will bring up their general performance. Yes, parents want what is best but lets not ignore parenting trends that do shape what we think must be best.

 

Like I said, I do believe there is a small percentage of children who benefit from red-shirting. In an area where it's rare, I don't doubt that it's done with much caution and study by parents. However, the more common it becomes, the more superficial the reasons for redshirting and the more accepted those reasonings become. We know families that decided upon the birth of their child to red-shirt and don't re-evaluate as their child ages. We know families that do 2 years of kindergarten for ALL their kids as a rule even when they admit their child didn't really need it (we have a full district that does this and while it gives them awesome elementary test scores, their middle and high school scores are just like everywhere else.) When it's 1 or 2 kids per school that are redshirted, then parents do really have to think hard. When it's half the class, it becomes a given that is thought of far less. I've seen what happens when redshirting becomes commonplace and it's no longer the "small percent." Like I said, it's not pretty.

 

I know, you'll look at this as an extreme case but this is in one of the largest counties in the country. We pour a lot of money into researching the negatives of being the youngest but how can you do a proper study without also researching the long-range effects of being too old for grade? So, I'll continue to question.

post #11 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by whatsnextmom View Post


 We have a Dec 1st cut-off and red-shirting children born after June is the norm. We even have started having extreme cases. DS had TWO kids in his kindergarten class turn 7. SEVEN! Parents are very open about their wanting to give their child "an edge." As a preschool teacher, most parents felt their children were immature when they were perfectly average for their age and equal to the other children in class. A large percentage felt their children were "behind" when they were academically average. Even when told, your child is right where they should be, they start to ask if holding them back will bring up their general performance. Yes, parents want what is best but lets not ignore parenting trends that do shape what we think must be best.

 

Like I said, I do believe there is a small percentage of children who benefit from red-shirting. In an area where it's rare, I don't doubt that it's done with much caution and study by parents. However, the more common it becomes, the more superficial the reasons for redshirting and the more accepted those reasonings become. We know families that decided upon the birth of their child to red-shirt and don't re-evaluate as their child ages. We know families that do 2 years of kindergarten for ALL their kids as a rule even when they admit their child didn't really need it (we have a full district that does this and while it gives them awesome elementary test scores, their middle and high school scores are just like everywhere else.) When it's 1 or 2 kids per school that are redshirted, then parents do really have to think hard. When it's half the class, it becomes a given that is thought of far less. I've seen what happens when redshirting becomes commonplace and it's no longer the "small percent." Like I said, it's not pretty.

 

I know, you'll look at this as an extreme case but this is in one of the largest counties in the country. We pour a lot of money into researching the negatives of being the youngest but how can you do a proper study without also researching the long-range effects of being too old for grade? So, I'll continue to question.



I agree.

 

We live in an area w/ Dec 1st cut-off and redshirting is not common or uncommon, the school we are in actively tries to place kids by AGE (vs grade) so that mostly only kiddos that do wait are suggested to do so by the school. A few are parent initiated, but most are caught on screening and do a developmental K then K , then 1st.

 

Some kids do need a year to develop a bit more even if they are age eligible, but on the same token. The areas that has kids waiting a year, really really should allow for early entry for the kiddos on the other end of the spectrum that are ready, but not age eligible. A few kids will fall on either side and should be allowed the leeway that they need for a good education.

 

My kids were 5 and turned 6 in Oct in 1st grade. They are doing great, as are a few other late summer/early fall Bdays. They do have several kiddos in their class that were 7 upon the start of school, but really only 2 or 3 out of 22- so 10% or so. and 2 or 3 are young, so it seems to be pretty even of a spread.

 

Also, having worked in a preschool and early elem. I agree that many many parents think their child is 'immature' or behind when in reality they are age appropriate for nationally normed screening tests (behavioral and academically). A LOT of it is influenced by where you live and that areas community culture. We moved from a state that had a Sept 1st cut-off with high high high red shirting that was encouraged by the schools. So the 'culture' of that state/area and the one we are in now are very different. Strangely enough they are BOTH blue-ribbon, high ranking schools.....makes you think about what really makes a 'good' school  (it is not the age of the kids! but the teachers, parent support, and resources available).

 

 

 

 

post #12 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post


The question is whether or not you think your kid is a good candidate to be youngest.

 

For some kids the answer is yes - others it may be "no".

 

I do hear whatsnext on how if large groups of parents redshirt it will not be pretty.

 

None-theless it is my job as a parent to do what I think is best for my kids.  If I think it is delaying, I am going to do it.

 

Redshirting is common where I live. My DD with a MAY birthday is about the youngest in her grade.

 

What you are advocating, every parent making a choice about what grade their child should be in, natural leads to this. I've no doubt that children just now starting school here with MAY birthdays are now being redshirted because their parents feel they "aren't a good candidate to be youngest. "

 

There needs to be a line, and no, most parents are not capable of deciding what grade their child should be in. There's really no way for a parent to understand how their child compares to their peers in a wide variety of areas. Most kids aren't evaluated -- moms are just looking at their friends' kids and making guesses. And most parents want to give their kids any edge that they can. It's a natural instinct.

post #13 of 75
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Linda on the move View Post


 

There needs to be a line, and no, most parents are not capable of deciding what grade their child should be in. There's really no way for a parent to understand how their child compares to their peers in a wide variety of areas. Most kids aren't evaluated -- moms are just looking at their friends' kids and making guesses. And most parents want to give their kids any edge that they can. It's a natural instinct.


We may just have to disagree about who is capable of deciding what grade their child should be in.  I tend to think parents know their kids best.  This is not just a line said often on MDC - I believe it.  In any event it is somewhat moot- what really matters is who gets final say - parents or school.  It looks like parents do in many places you live in, which is A-Ok by me, lol.

 

Yes, parents do want to give their kids the edge.  It is a natural.  This is a parenting board as opposed to a teachers board.  I understand why schools may not want to redshirt, may discourage or disallow it - but I think we all can understand why parents want it when there is ample research out there that seems to indicate that kids that are older in the class do better (there is also research that indicates it may not be such a great idea - but once again, it is up to parents to decide what makes sense for them)

 

 

 

 

 


Edited by purslaine - 11/3/11 at 6:40pm
post #14 of 75

Red shirting is very common here. I hate it. I think they need to make a cut off  date of Sept 1. Allowing for children within 1-2mths (either before or after be allowed to entry at the parents/schools  discretion. Anyone else needs to go to K or homeschool. It's absolutely  getting to out of control. Somebody has to be the youngest. Plus it's completely messing with lower income schools and test scores vs higher income schools. Here low income schools are likely to get 4 yr olds who've never been for preschool starting k, while wealthy districts are getting kids already 6 who've had 3 yrs of preschool. Of course a 6 year is going to out preform a four year old. driving up test scores even further in wealthier areas.  banghead.gif If kids truly aren't ready to move on they should be held back in K , where the trained teacher can decide.  Parents should not be able to pick and choose what grade their kids go in just so they can have an advantage over the other kids. 

post #15 of 75


 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Linda on the move View Post

R

There needs to be a line, and no, most parents are not capable of deciding what grade their child should be in. There's really no way for a parent to understand how their child compares to their peers in a wide variety of areas. Most kids aren't evaluated -- moms are just looking at their friends' kids and making guesses. And most parents want to give their kids any edge that they can. It's a natural instinct.


ITA The exception I have is, I have one child eligible to start school at 4.8yrs. K is not developmentally appropriate for a 4.8 yr old here. It's going to be a tough call for when the time comes. I'm not for redshirting, but if I send this child i could be setting her up for failure due simply to inappropriate expectations of the school......It's frustrating. 

 

post #16 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post



I respect that your opinion is your opinion and you seem against redshirting...however I think it is a little assumptive to judge parents who do redshirt as ill-experience, ill informed, over sentimental, etc.  

 

I do not doubt most  of them looked at the research and their child ...and simply made a different call then you did.  It does not make them ill experienced/informed, nor does it mean they are trying to produce academic stars.  



My husband and I decided to redshirt our son (birthday in early June) because he was way too immature to start K at 5.  We were fortunate to have the option of junior kindergarten last year.  He is in regular kindergarten this year, and while he is one of the oldest in his class (maybe THE oldest, I'm not sure), he fits right in (size-wise, ability, and maturity) and is not outperforming.  He is a friend to all the kids in his class, because he doesn't care that he is older. 

 

Had we put him in kindergarten last year, he would have hated school because he wasn't ready.  I wanted to give him the opportunity to have confidence and a love of school.  Making him academically advanced was never a motive, and I know it wasn't for the other parents from his junior kindergarten class either.  They just wanted their kids to have that extra year to develop maturity and confidence.

 

My son is thriving and happy.  He was also 8 weeks premature and has always been a late bloomer.  I am more than satisfied with our decision to redshirt and would do it again in a heartbeat.  It has been the best thing for him.

post #17 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by meetoo View Post

If kids truly aren't ready to move on they should be held back in K , where the trained teacher can decide. 



I disagree.  Holding a child back in kindergarten can set them up for a lack of confidence and dislike of school for the rest of their school career.  A school year is a long time for a 5 year old to be frustrated and not keeping up.

 

post #18 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post


We may just have to disagree about who is capable of deciding what grade their child should be in.  I tend to think parents know their kids best.  This is not just a line said often on MDC - I believe it.  In any event it is somewhat moot- what really matters is who gets final say - parents or school.  It looks like parents do in many places you live in, which is A-Ok by me, lol.

 

Yes, parents do want to give their kids the edge.  It is a natural.  This is a parenting board as opposed to a teachers board.  I understand why schools may not want to redshirt, may discourage or disallow it - but I think we all can understand why parents want it when there is ample research out there that seems to indicate that kids that are older in the class do better (there is also research that indicates it may not be such a great idea - but once again, it is up to parents to decide what makes sense for them)

 

 

 

 

 


If this is the case then parents should be allowed to send kids to K a year early because they feel they are ready. That is not allowed in any districts h that I know of, yet many parents are allowed to make their kids up to 18 months older. This makes the youngest kids (who are going by the state cut offs) even younger! It also doesn't seem like there is that much research like the other poster said where is the research on teh redshirted kids. Someone is always going to have to be the oldest/youngest...just pick a date and stick to it so the gaps don't get even wider and wider. 

 

post #19 of 75


I think whether K is developmentally appropriate is a entirely different conversation. I see to many kids starting later and later. It used to be kids only within a month or 2 of the cut of date were held back, now kids a full 6 months before the date are being held back. it's out of control. There needs to be limits placed. And your right part of the conversation should include K being a developmentally appropriate for the kids at the young end of the grade spectrum. 

 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bokonon View Post



I disagree.  Holding a child back in kindergarten can set them up for a lack of confidence and dislike of school for the rest of their school career.  A school year is a long time for a 5 year old to be frustrated and not keeping up.

 


 

 

post #20 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by meetoo View Post


I think whether K is developmentally appropriate is a entirely different conversation. I see to many kids starting later and later. It used to be kids only within a month or 2 of the cut of date were held back, now kids a full 6 months before the date are being held back. it's out of control. There needs to be limits placed. And your right part of the conversation should include K being a developmentally appropriate for the kids at the young end of the grade spectrum. 


 

 



I trust that the administrators with years of experience in education have considered these things and are evaluating them at a school and district level.  I'm not seeing 7 year old entering kindergarten.

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