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post #21 of 75

6 year olds entering K put them about 18 months older then they youngest kids here.........  Bokon you did what you felt was right for your child I'm not knocking you are any other parents personally. I know plenty of people who held out and believe it was the right thing for their kids. I'm, seriously not knocking your or other parents choices. I may very well choose to hold out my youngest child........ I just believe there needs to be cut off dates for oldest AND youngest kids, so that there isn't such a wide age range in each grade. Or do away with aged grades but that's a whole different topic. lol

 

C+P from the article 

 

Children born in August were more likely to report being unhappy or experience bullying in their younger years than those born in September, the report found.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/health/2011/11/01/month-child-is-born-impacts-educational-future-research-finds/?intcmp=obinsite#ixzz1cknvFnmd

 
 
This is just made worse by allowing all the redshirting. It's making bigger and bigger gaps between the oldest and the youngest kids. 
post #22 of 75

In our state there is a very strict date for enter K, the child has to be 5 before Sept 7 (or whatever the first day of school for the year is).

 

I am not a fan of red shirting at all, although I know that every parent should be able to decide when their child goes, but I am also in favor of mixed aged classrooms-- this seems to soften the negative aspects of comparing kids on their age, and allows the kid to experience a range of development in their own classroom. 

 

Kids can change so quickly! 

 

Also, the article in the OP is so superficial it is hard to even say what it is about! 

post #23 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by meetoo View Post

6 year olds entering K put them about 18 months older then they youngest kids here.........  Bokon you did what you felt was right for your child I'm not knocking you are any other parents personally. I know plenty of people who held out and believe it was the right thing for their kids. I'm, seriously not knocking your or other parents choices. I may very well choose to hold out my youngest child........ I just believe there needs to be cut off dates for oldest AND youngest kids, so that there isn't such a wide age range in each grade. Or do away with aged grades but that's a whole different topic. lol

 

C+P from the article 

 

Children born in August were more likely to report being unhappy or experience bullying in their younger years than those born in September, the report found.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/health/2011/11/01/month-child-is-born-impacts-educational-future-research-finds/?intcmp=obinsite#ixzz1cknvFnmd

 
 
This is just made worse by allowing all the redshirting. It's making bigger and bigger gaps between the oldest and the youngest kids. 


I don't doubt that that's happening, but my experience with bullying has been that the bullies in my son's classes have been the younger kids - possibly because of a lack of confidence for whatever reason.  I've seen the older kids be the most gentle (again, in my limited experience).  In my son's son, it seems like the bullies are less likely to have been redshirted and started school before they were ready.

post #24 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by carmel23 View Post

 

 

I am not a fan of red shirting at all, although I know that every parent should be able to decide when their child goes, but I am also in favor of mixed aged classrooms-- this seems to soften the negative aspects of comparing kids on their age, and allows the kid to experience a range of development in their own classroom. 

 

Kids can change so quickly! 

 

Also, the article in the OP is so superficial it is hard to even say what it is about! 


this ITA! Kids do make huge jumps, you never know where they will end up in a year. It also allows younger kids to learn from older kids rather than being compared to them and allows kids to work at their own pace....... I wonder what negatives to multi age classrooms there are? I've never actually experienced it first hand. 

 

Bokon IDK I guess we just have different experiences and different perspectives.  :)

 

post #25 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bokonon View Post



I don't doubt that that's happening, but my experience with bullying has been that the bullies in my son's classes have been the younger kids - possibly because of a lack of confidence for whatever reason.  I've seen the older kids be the most gentle (again, in my limited experience).  In my son's son, it seems like the bullies are less likely to have been redshirted and started school before they were ready.

 

We've experienced the exact opposite.
 

 

post #26 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post


We may just have to disagree about who is capable of deciding what grade their child should be in.  I tend to think parents know their kids best.


There is a massive difference between knowing your child better than anyone else and knowing what grade they should be in. There are examples all over this board from parents who see other parents where they live making bad choices about grade placement -- those of us who live where red-shirting in common have a different perspective from you because we see what it looks like and how it plays out. Where it is common, it becomes absurd.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by meetoo View Post

 I think they need to make a cut off  date of Sept 1. Allowing for children within 1-2mths (either before or after be allowed to entry at the parents/schools  discretion. Anyone else needs to go to K or homeschool. It's absolutely  getting to out of control. Somebody has to be the youngest. Plus it's completely messing with lower income schools and test scores vs higher income schools. Here low income schools are likely to get 4 yr olds who've never been for preschool starting k, while wealthy districts are getting kids already 6 who've had 3 yrs of preschool. Of course a 6 year is going to out preform a four year old. driving up test scores even further in wealthier areas.  banghead.gif 


 

I totally agree with you. I would LOVE to see a cut with a defined leeway of about 2 months, and the kids who fall into that 2 month period could be evaluated by the school to make a recommendation. I think that would make a lot of sense.

 

Red-shirting is most common in middle and uppermiddle class families that can either afford to have a parent at home or pay for more daycare/preschool. Families where all adults must work and school is partly a form a free child care simple don't have the option. Red-shirting being common among white people with money absolutely re-enforces class structure. Combined with giving more money to schools with higher test scores, it's immoral, and really ought to be criminal.


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by meetoo View Post

 I have one child eligible to start school at 4.8yrs. K is not developmentally appropriate for a 4.8 yr old here

 


I agree with you, but I think it's a separate issue.


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bokonon View Post
 Holding a child back in kindergarten can set them up for a lack of confidence and dislike of school for the rest of their school career.  A school year is a long time for a 5 year old to be frustrated and not keeping up.

 


 

But red-shirting can mask special needs. A parent can see that their child is developmental behind their peers and feel that giving them an extra year will help them catch up, not realizing that the child needs an evaluation and special help, not just more time. Red-shirting can delay when the problem with the child is figured out and addressed.

 

If K is developmental appropriate (and I know that in some places it isn't) and a child is old enough to be in K, then a child not being able to function successful in K is a flag.


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by meetoo View Post


It also doesn't seem like there is that much research like the other poster said where is the research on teh redshirted kids. Someone is always going to have to be the oldest/youngest...just pick a date and stick to it so the gaps don't get even wider and wider. 

 


 

The above referenced article was NOT about redshirting. It was about oldest vs oldest, which just ain't the same thing. This is a study on redshirting:

http://www.wcer.wisc.edu/news/coverStories/pros_cons_holding_out.php
 

Here is a quote from the article:

 

"Graue and DiPerna found that students do not seem to benefit socially from being redshirted. Their self-concept and acceptance by peers are about the same, as are teacher ratings of behavior for oldest (redshirted) and youngest (not redshirted) children. In fact, retrospective and cross-sectional analyses show redshirts doing less well than their peers on measures of behavior problems, Graue says. Although it is not argued that redshirting has caused increased rates of social and emotional difficulty, it does not appear to solve social or emotional problems."

 

The article also goes on to say that red-shirted children are more likely to end up needing special education services.

 

post #27 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by carmel23 View Post

 but I am also in favor of mixed aged classrooms-- this seems to soften the negative aspects of comparing kids on their age, and allows the kid to experience a range of development in their own classroom. 

 



I too am in full favor of mixed aged classes/activities when they are planned and designed to be as such. The problems start when you have a 3rd grade class and curriculum designed for 8-year-olds but have a class filled with kids who either haven't quite turned 8 to kids who will turn 10 before end of school year. Kids the exact same age already come to school with diverse interests, experiences and abilities. Add a 2 year age range and the expectation that they all need to learn from a single curriculum and it's just a mess.

 

We've personally loved mixed age activities and some of my kids best years have been in combination classes. These were programs and classes set-up to handle the range.

post #28 of 75

I'm with whatsnextmom - In our area red-shirting is very very common. Our cut toff is Aug. 1 and it is rare for a boy whose birthday is later than Feb. or March to be enrolled on time. I am on local message boards where this decision is brought up frequently and pretty much none of those parents have done any research. They just have this idea that their kid will be ahead and that is always good. There is a lot of social pressure to hold them back. I had a number of people question my decision to send my April birthday kids, kids who were completely developmentally, academically, and socially ready for school. Most parents decide long before their kid is even 4 or 5 that they aren't sending them if they have a summer birthday, so they certain ally aren't looking at their particular child's readiness.

 

I fully support parents who look at their child and make an informed decision about when to send their child.

 

I'm also in a district where the trend for 3 years of preschool and then sending them to K at a full 6 years of age is beginning to be the norm. Kids turning 7 in the spring of K is pretty common around here. It's not pretty. What we have happening now is a creep where the content of K is getting harder to meet the needs of the older children and K starts being an inappropriate fit for the kids who actually are the appropriate age. Which then makes parents reluctant to send their kids on time and results in more red shirting.

 

As for the research - it really is all over the board. The trend in the studies seems to show an early grade advantage to red-shirting with a late grade disadvantage, with the shift starting around 3rd grade. However, really with every study showing advantages to being the oldest their is another study showing disadvantages. For every study showing disadvantages to being the youngest another study can be found that shows advantages to being the youngest.

 

One question that needs to considered is not only if K is appropriate for your 4,5, or 6 year old, but is 12Th grade appropriate for your 17,18, 19 year old and everything in between. More flexible age/grade groupings would help with that. Personally I feel we need to make our schools more accountable for teaching kids at the appropriate level, and we need to be more flexible with the grade we enroll kids in to get the right fit.


Edited by JollyGG - 11/4/11 at 10:56am
post #29 of 75

 

Quote:
I'm also in a district where the trend for 3 years of preschool and then sending them to K at a full 6 years of age is beginning to be the norm. Kids turning 7 in the spring of K is pretty common around here. It's not pretty.

 

And hasn't this trend grown along with the trend to make Kindergarten curriculum more academic, similar to 1st grade curriculum?  Which then 'ups' the curriculum expectations for successive grades.  Parents, and policy-makers, clamoured to make Kindergarten classes more academically challenging, because the state of US students scores on an international scale is just shameful (or whatever).  And in response, since most kids can't actually do 1st grade work in Kindergarten, parents think they've got to give their kid some kind of edge. So they hold their kids back or enroll them a year later.   I don't know if the parents who called for more difficult primary grades are the same people who then 'red shirted' their kids, but if so, wouldn't that be ironic.

 

Is this observation too simple? 

post #30 of 75


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by whatsnextmom View Post



I too am in full favor of mixed aged classes/activities when they are planned and designed to be as such. The problems start when you have a 3rd grade class and curriculum designed for 8-year-olds but have a class filled with kids who either haven't quite turned 8 to kids who will turn 10 before end of school year. Kids the exact same age already come to school with diverse interests, experiences and abilities. Add a 2 year age range and the expectation that they all need to learn from a single curriculum and it's just a mess.

 

We've personally loved mixed age activities and some of my kids best years have been in combination classes. These were programs and classes set-up to handle the range.

Of course it would be intentional and planned as such, I meant classrooms and schools designed for multiple ages such as montessori schools.

 

But then even all 8 year-olds are all on the same page academically--so all classrooms would need to be planned as designed for diverse abilities and interests. Many 8 year olds *are* working two years ahead of their age--it isn't shocking for a 3rd grade student to work in many subjects at a 5th grade level. 

 

The problem isn't the age of the kids, but having classrooms with too narrowly focused curricula. 

 

Edit to ad, I am completely against redshirting, but then have advocated to have my kids enter school early/grade skip-- so given that I have wanted my kids to be in a grade that doesn't match their age, I can't see that parents who desire to have their kids in another grade per age are all doing it for the same reasons...
 

 

post #31 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by meetoo View Post


this ITA! Kids do make huge jumps, you never know where they will end up in a year. It also allows younger kids to learn from older kids rather than being compared to them and allows kids to work at their own pace....... I wonder what negatives to multi age classrooms there are? I've never actually experienced it first hand. 

 

Bokon IDK I guess we just have different experiences and different perspectives.  :)

 


I think the only 'disadvantage" is that it can be very challenging for the older kids to handle some of the immaturity of the younger kids.  But really, even that is a positive, because the kids are learning important life skills. 

 

post #32 of 75
Thread Starter 

This has been an interesting read; thank you.

 

As stated above I live in an area with little redshirting - despite the fact that Ontario has junior and senior kindergarten.  We also have a late cut-off (Jan. 1st).  It is not unusual for 3 year olds to be in junior K.  I would expect to see more redshirting , not less, given the circumstance, but who knows?  I also live in a less affluent area, and that may play into the low redshirting practice  (when all is said and done, junior K is cheaper than daycare if you have to work).  I work with the public, and while parents often express concern to me about whether or not their 3 year old is ready for K, almost all of them make the leap and place them in K when they age in.

 

Jolly GG said:

 

As for the research - it really is all over the board. The trend in the studies seems to show an early grade advantage to red-shirting with a late grade disadvantage, with the shift starting around 3rd grade. 

 


I had read this as well.  I think if your child is average or bright, the curriculum can move awfully slowly. Being ready to move on with curriculum but being kept back because you are in a class that is really too young for you must be a drag.

 

OTOH, and this might be Ontario specific, graduating young can be challenging.  DD, 12 (Dec. birthday) will graduate at 17.  For her entire first semester at University she will be 17.  She might be Ok with it (I won't! lol)  but if it were her brother, it would be not OK.  There are numerous kids here who take "a victory lap" at the high school (an extra year) because the kids are not ready to go to college or university on their own.

 

In any event, it is hard to speculate on how school will play out long term and you have to deal with the Kindergartten age child in front of you.  If you strongly think your child will benefit from delayed entrance, I say go for it.

 

 

 

 

 


Edited by purslaine - 11/4/11 at 8:05pm
post #33 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by carmel23 View Post


 

Of course it would be intentional and planned as such, I meant classrooms and schools designed for multiple ages such as montessori schools.

 

But then even all 8 year-olds are all on the same page academically--so all classrooms would need to be planned as designed for diverse abilities and interests. Many 8 year olds *are* working two years ahead of their age--it isn't shocking for a 3rd grade student to work in many subjects at a 5th grade level. 

 

The problem isn't the age of the kids, but having classrooms with too narrowly focused curricula. 

 

Edit to ad, I am completely against redshirting, but then have advocated to have my kids enter school early/grade skip-- so given that I have wanted my kids to be in a grade that doesn't match their age, I can't see that parents who desire to have their kids in another grade per age are all doing it for the same reasons...
 

 


I'm with you. I'm just choosing to stick to the general population as opposed to throwing unusual cases in the mix. My DD skipped a grade and continues to take upper level classes beyond grade in high school. DS started on schedule but is a late fall and started K at the age of 4. He's in 6th grade, just turned 11 and he takes math with 13/14-year-old 8th graders. I'm a huge advocate for flexible and individualized education.

 

I'm bothered by the fact that my kids really had to prove themselves to be given the option of working in the older classrooms. A red-shirted child does not have to prove they belong in the lower grade. Parents aren't given the right to place their kids in a higher grade just because they think their kid should be there and yet, there is no questioning a child who is enrolled late, rarely any entry testing to see if the child ieven belongs in kindergarten instead of 1st grade.

 

In any classroom in any school, a full year ability difference is the standard even if the kids all have the same birthday. Teachers will always have a child or two who is very advanced as well as a child or two who needs extra help. Throwing in a bunch of older kids who may be advanced due to being older but not necessarily gifted learners further complicates a difficult situation. 

post #34 of 75

I'm also in Ontario and red shirting is not at all common -  I'm not even sure if it's permitted in my school district.  My kids are at an independent school - so my knowledge is second hand - but the only family that know who deliberately held back all of  their children an extra year (at my kids' independent school) were forced to register them in the age appropriate grade  when they switched to a public school.  Based on what I'm reading in this thread, I think it's a good policy not to allow "red shirting."  Most families that I know who were concerned about the readiness of their child for junior kindergarten (age 4) kept them home another year and their child entered kindergarten the next year.  They didn't go to JK at age 5.  I find it bizarre that at 6 year old (turning 7!) would be in kindergarten.  

 

 

post #35 of 75

Yes, another Canadian here who finds "7 in kindergarten" totally bizarre. A full third of our kindergarteners are still 4 at the beginning of the school year and only a few of the oldest ones will turn six before the end of the year. If their parents think their kids are not ready for school, they hold them out (with or without declaring them as homeschoolers) and put them in Grade 1 the next year. I don't think putting them in KG the next year at age 5.5+ is permitted: that's first-grade age and that's where they go ... unless developmental delays are uncovered and their placement is altered for that reason.

 

I do think that KG in Canada tends to be more developmentally appropriate for 4- and 5-year-olds than much of what constitutes KG in the US. Our local kindy classroom is mostly play-based. Kids who are ready to read have the opportunity to develop their skills to some extent, but there are no desks and worksheets in that class and no expectation that they must be reading and writing sentences before the end of the year. If they are, that's fine, but that's not an expectation.

 

Miranda

post #36 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by moominmamma View Post

 

I do think that KG in Canada tends to be more developmentally appropriate for 4- and 5-year-olds than much of what constitutes KG in the US. Our local kindy classroom is mostly play-based. Kids who are ready to read have the opportunity to develop their skills to some extent, but there are no desks and worksheets in that class and no expectation that they must be reading and writing sentences before the end of the year. If they are, that's fine, but that's not an expectation.

 

 



This is my experience as well (in Quebec, Canada).  Also, in my dd's class all of the other kids are in the grade they're "supposed" to be in (ie. no one's been redshirted).

 

 

post #37 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by moominmamma View Post

I do think that KG in Canada tends to be more developmentally appropriate for 4- and 5-year-olds than much of what constitutes KG in the US. Our local kindy classroom is mostly play-based. Kids who are ready to read have the opportunity to develop their skills to some extent, but there are no desks and worksheets in that class and no expectation that they must be reading and writing sentences before the end of the year. If they are, that's fine, but that's not an expectation.

 

Miranda



Right.  I wonder if the push here to make Kindergarten harder back-lashed.  Would parents even feel it's necessary to start their 6 y.o. in Kinder if the 'curriculum' wasn't essentially too hard. 

post #38 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by moominmamma View Post

I do think that KG in Canada tends to be more developmentally appropriate for 4- and 5-year-olds than much of what constitutes KG in the US. Our local kindy classroom is mostly play-based. Kids who are ready to read have the opportunity to develop their skills to some extent, but there are no desks and worksheets in that class and no expectation that they must be reading and writing sentences before the end of the year. If they are, that's fine, but that's not an expectation.

 

Miranda


U.S. kindergartens are more academic than when I was in kindergarten but then, kindergarten kids are different too. These days you've got a large portion of the population having been in daycare from infancy (and that's not a judgement on women who work, only something that is far more common now than 30 years ago.) We take less maternity and paternity. We have less vacation than most of the world. Most kids have done a year of preschool if not 2 or 3 years. Toys, television, computers, books... there is a giant market for anything that exposes kids to academics early. Even 4-year-olds allowed to start kindergarten are generally starting with more academic skills than was the norm before. I'm not saying this is necessarily better but we have to acknowledge that as a whole, we are sending out children to kindergarten with more academic skills than we used to. I don't believe it can even be said that it's the school systems responsibility for all this. Seems like all of this sort of progressed side by side.

 

American parents as a whole can't really decide what we want. We complain bitterly about how academic kindergarten is but then so many parents still won't send their kid to a school unless they have high test scores. "Average" is a dirty word. "C" is a bad grade even though it is supposed to be "average." We feel pressured to have perfect kids and yet as a society, we often show disdain for high achievers. We take pride in instilling that American independence in our children and yet continue to micro-manage their lives. Parents race into schools to argue with teachers about grades their child may not even deserve.  Universities are giving parents online grade access to check up on their adult children and sending notices to the parents telling them that midterms are coming and encouraging them to send care packages with "study food" to help students focus. I just about died when my girlfriend showed it to me. Basically, we both push and baby our children! 

 

The K's in our area and the many K's I toured as a preschool teacher weren't nearly as "1st grade" as reading the state standards can have you thinking. I never saw one with individual desks. Most were still very play-based, kids were up and moving regularly, academic centers were intermixed with play centers, lots of outdoor time and some free indoor time as well. Some of the material, sure.... it's higher than it used to be but then, kids are starting with so much more academic knowledge and exposure than their used to be. I reckon there would be a public outcry if K went back to the major milestone being memorization of your address. 

 

post #39 of 75

Thank you very much Kathymuggle for posting this link, which is very relevant and useful to me.  I searched on the full article and was also aware of the context.  The reason why this is not an article about redshirting is that there is no redshirting in England.  Children who meet the cut-off must start school.  If they are held out for the year, they must start in year 1, not kindergarten.  So this is a study about what happens when redshirting is not permitted and suggests long-term downsides for children born close to the cut-off.  The study appears to be from a reputable body and to use a large cohort based on existing longitudinal studies.  

 

I'm taken aback by the suggestion that parents are making foolish decisions to hold children back based on their ignorance of the school system.  For one thing the study states that across the board, regardless of socio-economic status, parents spend more time helping younger children with schoolwork.

 

In my own situation, almost all the teachers I know think that we should not hold back DD (born less than 2 weeks before the cut-off), until I point out that she would be starting formal preschool in 2 months if she were put with her correct age group.  They are looking at my tiny toddler and assuming she is a year younger than she is.  In DS's kindergarten class last year, every child born less than 4 months before the cut-off did not meet reading expectations and their parents were told to seek specialist input and consider a learning delay.  Of 5 children out of 20 who missed a class party as a punishment for behaviour issues, all were in that younger group.  Several of those children's parents now plan to hold back their younger children.

 

Depending on your viewpoint this study might not present an argument in favour of redshirting, but it certainly presents an argument for a careful review of age-appropriate expectations in schools and differentiation for younger children.  Some might see these as separate issues, but I don't see how individual parents can possibly treat them as separate when they are faced with their own children's educational needs in a situation where they have no individual power to change the kindergarten curriculum.

post #40 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by whatsnextmom View Post

 

The K's in our area and the many K's I toured as a preschool teacher weren't nearly as "1st grade" as reading the state standards can have you thinking. I never saw one with individual desks. Most were still very play-based, kids were up and moving regularly, academic centers were intermixed with play centers, lots of outdoor time and some free indoor time as well. Some of the material, sure.... it's higher than it used to be but then, kids are starting with so much more academic knowledge and exposure than their used to be. I reckon there would be a public outcry if K went back to the major milestone being memorization of your address. 

 



this has been my experience, too.  the kindergartens my children have attended were a nice balance of movement, play, and academics.  It wasn't like chained to a desk worksheets all day at all. 

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