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study on redshirting - Page 3

post #41 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by robinia View Post


Depending on your viewpoint this study might not present an argument in favour of redshirting, but it certainly presents an argument for a careful review of age-appropriate expectations in schools and differentiation for younger children.  Some might see these as separate issues, but I don't see how individual parents can possibly treat them as separate when they are faced with their own children's educational needs in a situation where they have no individual power to change the kindergarten curriculum.



I understand that everyone wants their child to have a great first experience of school, but what happens to the kids who are held back a year, and then they are developmentally 'caught up' behavior wise and academically the next year?

 

And the school makes it public which children are recommended to see a reading specialist? I find that strange, but also, seeing a reading specialist isn't the end of the world.  Often they are looking for other reasons in delayed reading (physical, etc.).  Seeking a specialists opinion isn't a terrible thing--unless the school makes this information public--which I find very strange.

post #42 of 75

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by robinia View Post

T

 

In my own situation, almost all the teachers I know think that we should not hold back DD (born less than 2 weeks before the cut-off), until I point out that she would be starting formal preschool in 2 months if she were put with her correct age group.  They are looking at my tiny toddler and assuming she is a year younger than she is.  In DS's kindergarten class last year, every child born less than 4 months before the cut-off did not meet reading expectations and their parents were told to seek specialist input and consider a learning delay.  Of 5 children out of 20 who missed a class party as a punishment for behaviour issues, all were in that younger group.  Several of those children's parents now plan to hold back their younger children.

 

 

When is your cut off date? I can't imagine making the decision to hold out or send my youngest right now. I chose not to do preschool with her so I have until she is 4.5 to decided The younger kids are the bigger the age gaps seem,.fi have heard of preschools holding kids back in the 3's program and to me it's just to young to decide. Kids mature a great deal between the ages of 3-5. I would not be willing to hold a kid back for the rest of their life based on their behavior at age 3! 

 We have a late cut off date. I have seen some maturity differences with kids in my kids class who are very close to the cut off  date, because they really are very young in k. That generally seems to be the biggest reason why parents I know to opt to hold kids out.  I have a child less then four months from the cut off, that is reading above the expectations and I know of children held out reading below the expectations. I don't have stats I'm just going by the kids I know, but I haven't really seen an correlation in regards to performance. I think Linda brought up a good point that holding out can't always solve the problem and can in fact mean the child has a wait a whole other year to get help. That's also crummy that 5 kids out of twenty missed a class party in K. greensad.gif

 

On a side note.....I remember reading somewhere that there was a study done on teachers where they seemed to think younger kids had more problems even when it turned out the kids weren't younger..... I swear I got it from this site? Am I dreaming this, does anyone else know what I'm talking about? lol.gif

 

 

post #43 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by whatsnextmom View Post


U.S. kindergartens are more academic than when I was in kindergarten but then, kindergarten kids are different too. These days you've got a large portion of the population having been in daycare from infancy (and that's not a judgment on women who work, only something that is far more common now than 30 years ago.) We take less maternity and paternity. We have less vacation than most of the world. Most kids have done a year of preschool if not 2 or 3 years. Toys, television, computers, books... there is a giant market for anything that exposes kids to academics early. Even 4-year-olds allowed to start kindergarten are generally starting with more academic skills than was the norm before. I'm not saying this is necessarily better but we have to acknowledge that as a whole, we are sending out children to kindergarten with more academic skills than we used to. I don't believe it can even be said that it's the school systems responsibility for all this. Seems like all of this sort of progressed side by side.

 

American parents as a whole can't really decide what we want. We complain bitterly about how academic kindergarten is but then so many parents still won't send their kid to a school unless they have high test scores. "Average" is a dirty word. "C" is a bad grade even though it is supposed to be "average." We feel pressured to have perfect kids and yet as a society, we often show disdain for high achievers. We take pride in instilling that American independence in our children and yet continue to micro-manage their lives. Parents race into schools to argue with teachers about grades their child may not even deserve.  Universities are giving parents online grade access to check up on their adult children and sending notices to the parents telling them that midterms are coming and encouraging them to send care packages with "study food" to help students focus. I just about died when my girlfriend showed it to me. Basically, we both push and baby our children! 

 

The K's in our area and the many K's I toured as a preschool teacher weren't nearly as "1st grade" as reading the state standards can have you thinking. I never saw one with individual desks. Most were still very play-based, kids were up and moving regularly, academic centers were intermixed with play centers, lots of outdoor time and some free indoor time as well. Some of the material, sure.... it's higher than it used to be but then, kids are starting with so much more academic knowledge and exposure than their used to be. I reckon there would be a public outcry if K went back to the major milestone being memorization of your address. 


What I see in my area is that parents seem to think that Kindergarten is more academic and harder than it was when we were kids. People talk a lot about how much tougher it is and all that is expected of the kids. However, I don't think these parents must have their own schoolwork to compare to. My parents kept some of my kindergarten work as did my husbands. Looking back on our kindergarten work it appears very similar my son's.

post #44 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by robinia View Post

 

In my own situation, almost all the teachers I know think that we should not hold back DD (born less than 2 weeks before the cut-off), until I point out that she would be starting formal preschool in 2 months if she were put with her correct age group.  They are looking at my tiny toddler and assuming she is a year younger than she is.  In DS's kindergarten class last year, every child born less than 4 months before the cut-off did not meet reading expectations and their parents were told to seek specialist input and consider a learning delay.  Of 5 children out of 20 who missed a class party as a punishment for behaviour issues, all were in that younger group.  Several of those children's parents now plan to hold back their younger children.

 

 

Preschool and formal school is vastly different. I taught the 3s class, and yes we had kiddos that were 'young' and we had kids that turned 4 right as the school year started. As the Teacher, 10/12 of those kiddos were just where they need to be for their age. One child was fairly mature and advanced and would have benefitted from the next class up and the other was a child that went on to 'repeat' the year after both his parents and I decided that it was in his best interest.  I had three other 'young' kiddo that did just fine. It is amazing the growth all the children had from year 3-4. Honestly, many many of those parents of younger kiddos (we had 4 or 5) asked about repeating or waiting to do PreK. For all but one, it was not a good choice due to the maturity and knowledge of the child. The suggestions were based not only on anectodal notes, but standardized developmentally appropriate testing (not paper and pen testing before anyone jumps all over! It was testing of developmentally appropriate skills for ages 2-6- more of a milestone checklist than test.)

 

Of the K class you talk about. 

 

1. why would ANY parent other than the own childs, know the status of 'reading' development of other childern. that is a violation of the childs privacy

2. School should not and rarely ask for parent to consult outside specialists. Schools have their own reading specialists that assist students that may not be meeting grade level expectations. A learning delay is NOT often considered until 2nd grade (learning disabilities) due to the developmental nature of learning to read and the wide variety that is normal. I have given those standardized tests, a child in K that does not know letter sounds in midyear K and is 4 or 5 would not ever qualify for special services since it would be considered still developmentally normal. Most, if not all, schools have intervention programs in place to help kids that may be not meeting standards--- that does not MEAN they have learning disabilities. Many (80% +) of those kids respond well and then go on to be very successful in the classroom- they simply learn better in the smaller structured group that is provided.

3. As for 4/20 kids missing a party for K-- that would NOT be an appropriate punishment and if the teacher has that many kids that are struggling behaviorwise, that may be something that she/he needs to look at their own classroom management style.

 

Do I think at times that K has lost the play aspect. YES, but it also varies by school and by teacher. Also the culture of the school plays more into it than anything. Honestly, I think some parents need to consider alternative schools (charter, private, independent. open enrollment in another public) if the school culture is not appropriate vs waiting a year for many (but not all) kids.

 

Our local K also has many options. They offer all day, 1/2 day, immersion, Montesorri public, and Jr K. Due to this our highly  aggressive academic area (and high socio-economic) has little redshirting since most parents (and schools) find a program that works for their child at the age appropriate for them. Those kids that do wait are often doing so upon a review of both parents and the schools.

 

 


I am not pro or anti-redshirting as it may seem here. I am just more of the idea that parents and schools need to work together to make sure that everyone is aware of K standards, the schools, and have multiple options available that could enable kids to attend school when they are ready. I , too, favor a system that allows for a flexible cut-off for kids that fall on needing more time or early entry. Too many schools and too many parents try to work alone with little knowledge of each other in getting kids ready for K (parents need to be more aware of curriculum and the way it is presented and schools need to make sure they are screening and informing parents of what is developmentally expected for K, as well as making sure that the classrooms use play and other hands on activities).

 

 

post #45 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by whatsnextmom View Post

U.S. kindergartens are more academic than when I was in kindergarten but then, kindergarten kids are different too.

 


They have different exposures and experiences, but surely their developmental trajectory is basically the same as it was 30 years ago? I think readiness for pencil-and-paper learning, classroom behavioral expectations and reading fluency in particular are very much developmental. My kids were reading novels fluently at age 4, doing multiplication, inhaling factual knowledge, could focus for hours on single tasks, etc. and I still didn't start any formal academics with them until age 6-ish or beyond because their developmental maturity still very much favoured learning through creative play and social interactions, not formal instruction.

 

Miranda

post #46 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by moominmamma View Post


They have different exposures and experiences, but surely their developmental trajectory is basically the same as it was 30 years ago? I think readiness for pencil-and-paper learning, classroom behavioral expectations and reading fluency in particular are very much developmental. My kids were reading novels fluently at age 4, doing multiplication, inhaling factual knowledge, could focus for hours on single tasks, etc. and I still didn't start any formal academics with them until age 6-ish or beyond because their developmental maturity still very much favoured learning through creative play and social interactions, not formal instruction.

 

Miranda



I don't disagree. We didn't encourage formal academics, the kids didn't have educational toys, our kids went to a single year of truly play based preschool. Both ended up very advanced on their own but they didn't have formal instruction until kindergarten. I'm not saying I'm in FAVOR of structured learning at young ages, I'm just pointing out that we are sending very different students into schools than we used to. We can't buy stuffed animals for our 2-year-olds that recite letters and then be surprised that kindergarten chooses not to focus on that skill. As much as society complains, it's still the most academic of kindergartens with the longest wait lists and the little handful of schools with no Kindie academics seen as "alternative."

 

post #47 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by whatsnextmom View Post

We can't buy stuffed animals for our 2-year-olds that recite letters and then be surprised that kindergarten chooses not to focus on that skill. 

 


I think we're very much on the same page with our own choices. Two further points about the state of kindergarten, though. First, just because 2-year-olds learn to recite the alphabet doesn't mean 3- 4- and 5-year-olds' schooling needs to build on that. "Not focusing on learning the alphabet" could involve so much besides moving into phonics, writing and sight words. (Our lovely local kindergarten does has a huge focus on handicrafts, art, exploring the natural world, theatre and folk dance, for example.) Secondly, even if you do choose to build on those early academic skills it is certainly possible to do so without demanding that children fill out worksheets, write in journals and sit quietly indoors attending to individual work for long periods of time.

 

Miranda

post #48 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by moominmamma View Post


I think we're very much on the same page with our own choices. Two further points about the state of kindergarten, though. First, just because 2-year-olds learn to recite the alphabet doesn't mean 3- 4- and 5-year-olds' schooling needs to build on that. "Not focusing on learning the alphabet" could involve so much besides moving into phonics, writing and sight words. (Our lovely local kindergarten does has a huge focus on handicrafts, art, exploring the natural world, theatre and folk dance, for example.) Secondly, even if you do choose to build on those early academic skills it is certainly possible to do so without demanding that children fill out worksheets, write in journals and sit quietly indoors attending to individual work for long periods of time.

 

Miranda


And I agree but that was my point, our local kindergartners and the ones I've toured do very little with worksheets and don't expect K's to sit for long periods. There is still a big focus on art, theatre, science, community, music, nature, outdoor experiences, sensory activites and so on (especially when the K's went full-day.) The standards are high but they aren't being run like a 1st grade classroom would. It's different than we remember ourselves but it's not to the point where half the class needs to be a solid 6 before starting.

 

post #49 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by KCMichigan View Post


I am not pro or anti-redshirting as it may seem here. I am just more of the idea that parents and schools need to work together to make sure that everyone is aware of K standards, the schools, and have multiple options available that could enable kids to attend school when they are ready. I , too, favor a system that allows for a flexible cut-off for kids that fall on needing more time or early entry. Too many schools and too many parents try to work alone with little knowledge of each other in getting kids ready for K (parents need to be more aware of curriculum and the way it is presented and schools need to make sure they are screening and informing parents of what is developmentally expected for K, as well as making sure that the classrooms use play and other hands on activities).

 

 

 

Just to clarify what I meant - I was typing while parenting - it never works well!  smile.gif  The school didn't breach anyone's privacy - the parents told me themselves.  They were understandably upset about the amount of trouble their kids were constantly in.  The school was not talking about reading specialists - all of these kids were put automatically into reading recovery within the school in Y1 - but about developmental paediatricians because the school was of the view that these children might be developmentally delayed.  Now to my mind this is the school, despite its fine reputation, being a little stupid and not recognising the maturity differences between 5.5 and 6.5 (the age range at the end of K where we are). But my point is only, what is a parent of a younger child to do when faced with this kind of issue?

 

In DD's case, of course there are huge changes between 3 and 4.5 but because of the way school applications are done we have to begin our decision-making process.  I was very anti-holding back until I saw DS's preschool and K experience.  Whenever I ask a teacher for viewpoints on holding back, the teacher says "oh no, don't hold back!" until I say "but then she'd be in preschool next year" (school year starts in January here) and then they say "oh, you're kidding, she's not ready for preschool".  The theory is fine, and of course someone has to be the youngest, and of course having older children in K feeds into higher K expectations - it's just that individual parents have to make the best decision within the framework they have.  

 

I think you are absolutely right in your suggestions above re flexible entry, more options, better information, play and hands-on activities. 

 

 

post #50 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by whatsnextmom View Post


And I agree but that was my point, our local kindergartners and the ones I've toured do very little with worksheets and don't expect K's to sit for long periods. There is still a big focus on art, theatre, science, community, music, nature, outdoor experiences, sensory activites and so on (especially when the K's went full-day.) The standards are high but they aren't being run like a 1st grade classroom would. It's different than we remember ourselves but it's not to the point where half the class needs to be a solid 6 before starting.

 

 

Wish we had your k!!!!!! 

 

post #51 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by meetoo View Post

 

On a side note.....I remember reading somewhere that there was a study done on teachers where they seemed to think younger kids had more problems even when it turned out the kids weren't younger..... I swear I got it from this site? Am I dreaming this, does anyone else know what I'm talking about? lol.gif

 

 



This probably isn't what you are looking for, but this study from the NAEYC refers to teacher's expectations of younger children and the fact that teachers more frequently refer older children for GT programs and younger children for retention: http://journal.naeyc.org/btj/200309/DelayingKEntry.pdf  It has been posted here a few times and it does lean heavily toward not redshirting both b/c the benefits disappear over time and b/c there are potential longer term negative outcomes.

 

post #52 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by robinia View Post

  The school was not talking about reading specialists - all of these kids were put automatically into reading recovery within the school in Y1 - but about developmental paediatricians because the school was of the view that these children might be developmentally delayed.  Now to my mind this is the school, despite its fine reputation, being a little stupid and not recognising the maturity differences between 5.5 and 6.5 (the age range at the end of K where we are). But my point is only, what is a parent of a younger child to do when faced with this kind of issue?

 

 

 



A few things:

 

If you have 4 our of 20 kids getting referred to a developmental specialist, there is something wrong with the school and their assessment team. It is statistically unlikely that such a large percentage of that age group would be developmentally delayed.

 

As a parent of  younger kiddos (mine are 6y1m and in 1st grade).  I would be firm in developmental guidelines for that age-- -my girls teacher pointed out that one of my DD is still reversing letter/number in writing though she has a very high level of skill in both reading and writing (length, sentence structure, and format). I gently pointed out that she (at the time) was not even 6 and reversals are developmentally normal until age 7. At times, yes teachers will compare the oldest (in our class 7y+) to the youngest. But often they go by the middle age (which for 1st would be about 6/6.5) and extrapolate from there on expectations..... That said, otherwise I have been VERY happy with our school. Even in 1st there is a lot of differentiation for skills and abilities, allowing kiddos to work mostly at their level (the only area weak in this is math).  My kids are one of the youngest in their grade and two of three of kids with late Fall Birthdays in their class (them and one other child). Currently, I think that it is the best placement for my kiddos and in their situation. I can not imagine them in K. They also did 3 & 4 yr old preschool as the youngest and it was very positive.- we moved and they did PreK as the oldest due to cut-off dates.They and I found it a dull year and they were restless- we did a lot of supplemental field trips and at home explorations. We moved again and they skipped K and went straight to 1st. (this was all due to moving  and cut-off dates, not by school or parental choice)

 

A 6.5 yr old will be differently presented in every child. There is a wide range of 'normal' for 3-4, 4-5, 5-6, and 6-7. Also, please consider that multi-age classrooms are successful and have been shown to be beneficial....so a school that does not recognize the developmental range of normal and acceptable skills for each age is one that needs some refreshers on age appropriate activities. Often multi-age classrooms have ages 3-5 or 5-7. A class with a smaller spread of ages should be able to adapt.

 

I have been in the classroom and yes- there are 2 or 3 kiddos that stand out in social 'immaturity', but from the posted Bday chart: only one is 'young'. As for academics, I have volunteered in the class and the skills are across the board and have little to no correlation to age at this point.

 

As I stated before: I ran in to the same thing teaching 3 yr old preschool: there will be a spread of maturity and skills not matter WHAT age and it is not always the 'youngest' students. A good teacher and school will have adaptations to ensure all student have success. 80-90% of the kiddos should do well and fall within the developmental 'normal' range , with the remaining 10% possibly  simply needing more time and/or having special needs (physical, giftedness, social, etc) that require more intensive teaching.

post #53 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by KCMichigan View Post



A few things:

 

If you have 4 our of 20 kids getting referred to a developmental specialist, there is something wrong with the school and their assessment team. It is statistically unlikely that such a large percentage of that age group would be developmentally delayed.


I don't know about that - with ADHD and autism so prevalent, as well as more and more ESL students, I wouldn't be surprised if 25% of very young children at some schools getting referred to a developmental specialist if they hadn't already been diagnosed and/or getting services.  

 

There were 5 kids out of 25 in my son's junior kindergarten that had behavioral issues that may have warranted a referral for evaluation, just that I know of.  Instead of getting that help however, 3 of them became violent and aggressive in class.  One of the other 2 was withdrawn from school by his parents, and the fifth did get an evaluation and an IEP with an instructional aide.

 

In the same school this year, one of the kindergarten classes has 9 ESL students, out of 26.  That's not a developmental delay, but it may warrant an evaluation if the parents had not already gone that route.

 

Many developmental issues and delays are not "caught" until school age, and many parents think that it is the school's problem to deal with.  I have three friends whose children on the autism spectrum were not diagnosed until age 6/7 because they were developmental typical until that age.  There is such a wide range of what is normal as well as what isn't that.

post #54 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bokonon View Post


I don't know about that - with ADHD and autism so prevalent, as well as more and more ESL students, I wouldn't be surprised if 25% of very young children at some schools getting referred to a developmental specialist if they hadn't already been diagnosed and/or getting services.  

 

I taught in the schools, and even taught Special Education. I have never heard of  25% of a class to be referred for evaluation through the schools, much less a developmental specialist. Yes, 25% were likely receiving some sort of support beyond the basic classroom environment (speech, social work, IEP, 504, etc) but the point here was that it was stated that  4 out of 20 being referred for a developmental delay (so assuming these 4 were not already identified). In all likelihood 1-2 kiddos were already on an IEP or 504 upon the start of school out of a class of 20 or so. A developmental specialist is unlikely to deal with speech or students  that area ESL or getting social work support for minor issues.

 

Yes, 25% may be getting reading support and/or other interventions from the school. But that does not mean they have a developmental delay nor that they saw/need to see a developmental specialist. New laws require schools to go through multiple tiers of interventions for students that may not be meeting grade level expectations. Those tiers are just interventions to help support the child and DO NOT mean they have a developmental delay or learning disability. They are simply a tool used by the school to help students that may be struggling. And yes, some kids struggle in K at the start-- not because of age  but rather it is a huge change in routine and environment. 

 

 

There were 5 kids out of 25 in my son's junior kindergarten that had behavioral issues that may have warranted a referral for evaluation, just that I know of.  Instead of getting that help however, 3 of them became violent and aggressive in class.  One of the other 2 was withdrawn from school by his parents, and the fifth did get an evaluation and an IEP with an instructional aide.

 

Behavioral Disorders is actually my specialty. If 5 out of 25 kids in a class were referred for a behavioral disorder--- there would need to be a serious look at the classroom management. It would be highly highly unusual, though not impossible but rather improbable, for 3/25 even to be aggressive enough to warrant an IEP (unless they were already on one). Often there is one or two student across three or four classes that get a 504 or IEP for behavioral disorders and often one or two of those have had some form of remediation beforehand. Violent or aggressive behavior often warrants a close look due to safety factors and it is rare for an aggressive child to get to K without a 'papertrail' of evaluations.

 

There are preschool classes that are federally mandated to serve identified developmentally delayed preschoolers ( Jr K).

 

In the same school this year, one of the kindergarten classes has 9 ESL students, out of 26.  That's not a developmental delay, but it may warrant an evaluation if the parents had not already gone that route.

 

ESL is TOTALLY different and is not in any way a developmental disorder or require the attention of a developmental specialist. The only evaluation they may do on ESL PreK or Preschool classes are to test for English proficiency for support level from a ESL teacher.

 

Many developmental issues and delays are not "caught" until school age, and many parents think that it is the school's problem to deal with.  I have three friends whose children on the autism spectrum were not diagnosed until age 6/7 because they were developmental typical until that age.  There is such a wide range of what is normal as well as what isn't that.

 

Again, that seems to be not the norm. Most kiddos with Autism Spectrum disorders are often identified in preschool due to social skills, language, and/or other typical ASD traits being more intense and of a greater frequency than other typical preschool age behaviors.  A few kiddos that also have an ASD diagnosis as a preschooler that is more mild may go on to no longer 'qualify' once they hit 2nd or later grades because they have developed coping skills and/or had a lot of intervention. Some are identified after age 6/7: but often the signs were there and the student was not 'typical' but rather had good coping skills in place and/or parents were not aware of what is developmentally normal for that age. After age 6 or so , behaviors that were OK  are no longer considered on the norm or as social skills peak and develop in most kids it is more apparent that a student w/ ASD is struggling with the implied  social nuances of their peers.

 

It is not the schools problem and most parents that I have worked with were aware that the was something not quite standard with their child long before schools starts.

 

The most common diagnosis that I have seen that is 'caught' in later elementary is learning disabilities. Often it is not until a child is 6/7 that it can be determined if a learning delay is developmental in nature or a learning disability. A learning disability often is seen when a child does not seem to be meeting the academic potential of their age/intellect and it can be seen in a wide variety of formats (from reading to writing to math or a combination). Yes, often there are co-morbid diagnosis such as ADHD or OCD or behavioral disorders with learning disabilities (LD). Often the other diagnosis are seen before the LD. But not always-- sometimes LDs are a stand alone diagnosis.

 

But it is a rare child that would qualify for a LD diagnosis in K or Preschool ( I saw it twice in the past 6 years). And rarely , if evaluated by the schools, does that child get a referral to a developmental pediatrician/specialist for a LD. The schools often do their own evaluations and have psychologists and special education teachers that are qualified to diagnose and determine specific learning disabilities. A psychologist, neurologist, or pediatrician would likely diagnose a developmental delay.

 

 

 

On a personal note, both my kiddos have special needs. One is on a 504 for physical disability, the other has a very mild form of Autism Spectrum Disorder. They have had interventions since they were infants. Both are currently successful in 1st grade without support from the schools for anything but one dd for physical disabilities.  Yes, they are among the youngest. But  in no way does that have anything to do with their disabilities.

 

I think people are quick to point to age as a major factor. It can be a factor, yes, but in reality it is just one of many many many facets of how successful a childs school start is and should not be a lone reason to hold or send a child to school. There is too much variance of children of the SAME age to place such importance on age or cut-off date. A child with a birthday 2 days past a cut-off may be more ready than one that has a birthday two month before and vice versa.

 


 

 


Edited by KCMichigan - 11/6/11 at 5:20pm
post #55 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by KCMichigan View Post

 


 

Behavioral Disorders is actually my specialty. If 5 out of 25 kids in a class were referred for a behavioral disorder--- there would need to be a serious look at the classroom management. It would be highly highly unusual, though not impossible but rather improbable, for 3/25 even to be aggressive enough to warrant an IEP (unless they were already on one). Often there is one or two student across three or four classes that get a 504 or IEP for behavioral disorders and often one or two of those have had some form of remediation beforehand. Violent or aggressive behavior often warrants a close look due to safety factors and it is rare for an aggressive child to get to K without a 'papertrail' of evaluations.

 



Thank you for your insight.

 

5/25 weren't referred, but definitely had behavior that should have been evaluated (repeat offenses).  A child telling other children that he is going to kill them and kill their mothers is not a classroom management problem.  Another child who punches another in the face while lining up for recess is not a classroom management problem.  I don't know how unusual it is, but it was very real.

 

An aggressive child would not have a papertrail of evaluations by kindergarten if the parents did not think an evaluation was necessary, or saw the aggression as being typical for that age, which seems to be what the problem was in my son's class last year.

 

The principal was not willing to mandate evaluations for these children.

 

I understand that in your experience it would be improbable for 3 out of 25 children to be aggressive enough to warrant an IEP - but I'm not making this up.  I live in a fairly well-off area in one of the best school districts in San Diego County.  I was surprised at what went on in my son's class, but I wasn't imagining it, and 9 of the parents went to the school district to try to change how the ineffectual principal was dealing with the situation.  

post #56 of 75


Ah, that makes sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by robinia View Post

 

Just to clarify what I meant - I was typing while parenting - it never works well!  smile.gif  The school didn't breach anyone's privacy - the parents told me themselves.  They were understandably upset about the amount of trouble their kids were constantly in.

 


 

 

post #57 of 75

I think I am coming late to this party!   The posts were interesting to me since I delayed 2 of my 3 kids. 


I would like to see positive examples of starting a 4 year old in Kindergarten.     I read a lot of posts where redshirting was not a positive to other kids.  But give me an example of a July 25th birthday boy starting school on August 2nd from a positive point of view.    Seriously. 

 

I held my son back and my daughter.

My daughter's birthday is August 23rd and she actually started school as a 4 year old.   She was 4 and going to school for 8 hours!  After school started we discovered that she was hearing impaired and held her back in Kindergarten for another year.  It was without a doubt the best thing I have ever done.     She wasn't a bully.  Rather she resisted being bullied by other girls because she was more mature.   She wasn't bigger than everyone.  She actually was on the smaller side.  Imagine if she had been a year ahead. 

 

When my son started - it was obvious that if delaying or repeating kindergarten had benefitted our dd so much - it obviously would benefit my ds who had a late summer birthday.   He is now 14 and in the 8th grade.   He's 5 ft 2 and not even 100 lbs.

 

I know I sound snarky, but I would appreciate it if the previous posters would make decisions for their kids and stop judging me for the decision I made in reference to my children.  Not just because they are my kids, but because you are wrong.  My kids aren't bigger than everyone and they certainly aren't bullies.


Thank you kathymuggle for once again being the voice of reason and continually posting that it is up to the parent.

 

 

post #58 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by lab View Post

I know I sound snarky, but I would appreciate it if the previous posters would make decisions for their kids and stop judging me for the decision I made in reference to my children.  Not just because they are my kids, but because you are wrong.  My kids aren't bigger than everyone and they certainly aren't bullies.

 

 



I re-read the thread and didn't see anyone judging you personally or your individual children. Most posters (perhaps all?) acknowledged that red-shirting or delayed start was appropriate for some children. 

 

I did see posters raise concerns and issues that they and their children have had to deal with in their own lives. They aren't wrong about their own experiences, the problems they have faced and the issues they've seen arise. 

 

If delayed start or being held back has worked out for your family, I'm sure no one would fault you for making that decision. I know it's a sensitive topic. It's still valid to discuss what's happening in classrooms as many people make the same choice and the demographics of classes change. After all, it impacts their own children. 

 

 

post #59 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by lab View Post

I think I am coming late to this party!   The posts were interesting to me since I delayed 2 of my 3 kids. 


I would like to see positive examples of starting a 4 year old in Kindergarten.     I read a lot of posts where redshirting was not a positive to other kids.  But give me an example of a July 25th birthday boy starting school on August 2nd from a positive point of view.    Seriously. 

 


I have an October birthday son who started in kindergarten in September. That made him 4yr 10 months on the first day of school. He's in middle school now and we don't regret sending him at all despite his being the younger than most of the boys by a year or more. DS is a bright and capable kid who still needs more academically than his current grade can give him. He is still regarded highly by the staff and given more responsibilities than most of the other kids. He is still put in leadership positions by his peers. His friends through activities range from a year younger to 3 years older. Yes, we had negative experiences with too-old for grade bullies in school but that is largely because of the quantity and the extreme cases. My own DH started at 4 too and did great.

 

My eldest started K at 5 but then skipped a grade and so still younger than she should be in her class. She's in high school and we have no regrets. Even though that scenario worked for us, I am the first to concede that it's a small percentage for which it's the best option. It was the right decision for HER but I don't try to sell it as a good option for the masses. I often feel that articles like the one posted, only focus on one side of things and are taken out of context (as it was not an article on red-shirting) do more damage than good. They convince parents of ready children that the month a child was born in is more important than really seeing their child for what they are.

 

Personally, I'm not judging you. It's true, I am very unhappy with the heavy red-shirting trends in our area. I do encourage parents to do more research than is happening in our area now. Yes, we've seen lots and lots of negatives when parents start routinely red-shirting perfectly able children. If your kids were the small percentage that truly weren't ready, then you made the right decision. I've always maintained that there are some that need the extra year. As a preschool teacher, there have been a couple I recommended wait. My issue is that it's become so commonplace that it's no longer just 1 or 2 kids a year. In our area, it can be half a classroom and it DOES alter the dynamics of the classroom. 

 

post #60 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by lab View Post

I think I am coming late to this party!  

.....

I know I sound snarky, but I would appreciate it if the previous posters would make decisions for their kids and stop judging me for the decision I made in reference to my children. 

 


 

How could we be judging you when you weren't even on the thread?

 

I'm not a fan of redshirting, but I think there should be a little leeway with the cutoff. There are some kids close to the cut off that are better off being on the older side of their grade, and some who are better off being on the younger side of their grade.

 

The kids, like yours, who are best off being on the older side of their grade are NOT well served by redshirting being common -- because what it means is that they no longer are on the older side. When ALL kids with summer birthdays are held back, and some kids with spring birthdays are held back, then a kid with a board line birthday who is also a late bloomer is really kinda screwed. Because if it his mother holds him back a year, he's still in a class where half (or more) of the kids are older than him. Then what are parents to do -- hold back their kid for 2 years?

 

The way it plays out where red shiriting is common is absurd. BUT I totally agree with you some kids are better off being on the older side for their grade, and I'm happy that things are working out well for both your kids. That's always the goal. thumb.gif


Edited by Linda on the move - 11/9/11 at 8:44pm
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