I'm okay with my purple glitter boy, but cringe at my girly girl. Want help in changing. - Page 2

[SweetSilver]

Originally Posted by hakeber 

Make sure that as often as she hears "You are so pretty, what a beautiful princess!" she also hears "What a great project, you are so clever!"  because for me, that is the real danger.  Not that she likes sparkly things, but that she will come to learn that she is more valuable when she is sparkly, and DS will learn he is less valuable when he sparkles.  That DS will learn to be innovative and creative and energetic is where his value lies and that DD will learn that for her to be those things is not as great.

Exactly!  Isn't that the first thing Grandma or aunts or strangers comment on, how girls are dressed?  I agree that it is this additional emphasis, and not the frilly things themselves, that are the trouble.  

Oh, and "keeping neat" while wearing girlie clothes, too, that bugs me to no end.  Their Grandma, who is really a wonderful soul, kept commenting on that when they wore dresses.  After several times of saying "We have no precious clothes" she finally dropped it.

I think that when boys delve in girlie things it is seen as balancing the bashemcrashem stuff of the stereotypical boyhood with something beautiful and gentle.  For girls we see this interest as reinforcing all the princess-helplessness and shallowness of girlhood.  (Obviously I don't speak for General Society who discourages this behavior in boys and reinforces it in girls.)  The best we can do is focus on what they do and how they act towards others, offer toys and activities that can appeal to all and allow them to make their own decisions.
 

[Imakcerka]

My brother played with my barbies, I played with his GI Joes. I don't recall anyone ever telling me I couldn't.  That's probably why I'm so feminine.  HA!

[Lazurii]

Originally Posted by hakeber 

I am in the exact same boat, Lazurii!  I seriously could have written this post.  My daughter is obsessed with shoes and I swear if she could articulate it, she'd ask me to pierce her ears.

Maybe I am missing your point but, it's not that I don't let her follow her heart, but I just wish that the presents and variety we receive, were not SO one sided.

I mean, Yes, she likes dress up and that can be fun creative play, but she also loves crayons and finger paints and dinosaurs and cars, and all she gets are clothes and baby dolls and kitchen equipment.  Does she love them?  Yes, but she would like other things as well. 

What bugs me is not that she likes that stuff but that DS has learned from friends family and school that it is not really okay to tell people he likes dress up and purple and sparkle and dolls (he now only whispers it and keeps oping DD will get a Barbie soon so he can play with it when she asleep), and DD is never  thought of as a whole person with interests outside of girly things, which she does have (even if she is only 21 months).  By the time DS was her age he had a whole box full of puppets and cars and trains and books,  books galore, and paints and crayons...with DD we have gotten TWO books and two pink and purple stuffed animals, a set of sesame street measuring cups and the rest clothes...and I swear she has gotten no less gifts than DS did in his toddlerhood.

So, I think introducing other stuff is never a bad thing.  Just let them play and make sure there is plenty of all kinds of toys and games to play.  If you get heaps of girly girl sparkle, you may have to balance, and even cull it back to make sure there is a balance of cars and trucks and crayons etc.  Make sure that as often as she hears "You are so pretty, what a beautiful princess!" she also hears "What a great project, you are so clever!"  because for me, that is the real danger.  Not that she likes sparkly things, but that she will come to learn that she is more valuable when she is sparkly, and DS will learn he is less valuable when he sparkles.  That DS will learn to be innovative and creative and energetic is where his value lies and that DD will learn that for her to be those things is not as great.

Have you ever read the Story of  X?  It's a good parable about parenting without gender bias.

Yes, yes, YES!  THIS!  It's really not the fact that she loves it, but I feel like I can't reinforce it because everyone else does.  And she does love to do things, like color and paint and play with blocks, but because she also loves shoes and clothes and hair pretties then she's "all girl" and all that rot.

There's also that reinforcing with BuggaBoo when he's running around screaming or throwing rocks or making sounds effects.  "Oh, he's all boy!" when in fact he has a gentler side that comes out to play all the time.

I mean, seriously, my son isn't even four yet and he asked me to teach him how to sew.  I loves going to the fabric store with me to pick out fabric for a new dress or shirt or something.  My daughter loves digging in the garden and playing with tools and stuff like that.  But there's no praise for the gender neutral or gender opposite things they do, there's only praise for things that fit in their gender roles.

*sigh*  Sorry, I don't feel like I'm articulating well.  Bascially I wish I could revel in all their qualities but feel like I need to give support to the "opposites" so that they get balanced praise in their life.
 

[hakeber]

I don't think there is anything wrong with balancing out the comments.  But I know what you mean...it would be easier to be the mom I want to be if we lived in the middle of nowhere and didn't have to deal with other people's prejudice and socialization.

I live in Bogota where people tell me I am ruining my daughter's life by not piercing her ears, or for letting her dress in jeans or allowing her to get dirty like a boy and that it is irresponsible to allow my boy to be so "weak" and uncoordinated and I should make him play soccer...like I encourage him to be bad at sports by letting him sign out books at the library and teaching him how to make cookies.

I always feel like busting out Gaga on their asses singing: He's on the right track, baby, he was born that way!

People are just mean...hopefully if we keep planting enough seeds of acceptance and love, then our grand kids...okay maybe our great grandkids will get to be construction workers with purple glitter hard hats, or scientists who dance a mean Sugarplum fairy.  Fingers crossed!

[SweetSilver]

I just have girls.  The place where this issue grates the most is when they dress up in all their frilliest, sparkliest dresses and jewelry and ask me "Aren't we pretty?"  I find my self answering, "*Those* really are pretty!  Can I tell you a secret?  I think you're pretty even without them.  You could be wearing the dullest clothes and still be pretty.  But yes, they do look pretty *on you*!"  I have no idea whether this sinks in or not, but I feel compelled to make the point.

I also refrain from calling those kinds of things "girlie", in fact I avoid using the word within earshot at any cost.  When we are at the fabric store we can "oooh!" and "aaaah!" at all the fancy fabrics, though lately my oldest likes what she calls "boy stuff".  I have to admit that this term and "girlie" have some validity in our society.  She noticed long ago that to find t-shirts with sharks and dragons and monsters and Star Wars characters on them that we'd have to go into the boys' rack at the Goodwill.  So she understands the marketing to some extent.  And, now she actively avoids pink and purple because she noticed that all the girls' clothes were made from them.  I'm glad she seeks some balance, but I'm sad that she has to end up calling "boy stuff"and "girl stuff".

[LynnS6]

Originally Posted by SweetSilver 

I just have girls.  The place where this issue grates the most is when they dress up in all their frilliest, sparkliest dresses and jewelry and ask me "Aren't we pretty?"  I find my self answering, "*Those* really are pretty!  Can I tell you a secret?  I think you're pretty even without them.  You could be wearing the dullest clothes and still be pretty.  But yes, they do look pretty *on you*!"  I have no idea whether this sinks in or not, but I feel compelled to make the point.

I make the same point, but in a slightly different way. When my daughter asks "How do I look?" or "Aren't I pretty?" I'll say, "You look very nice" or "Those clothes certainly are fancy/pretty. I like how they sparkle/twirl". I don't add the stuff at the end because I don't think that's going to help. Instead, I'll insert things like "how's my gorgeous girl doing?" when she's wearing old mismatched clothes, or "how's my creative kid doing?" or "how's my strong girl?" at other times so that she hears a variety of compliments that aren't just about what she's wearing or just about how she looks. I don't want to not tell her she's pretty because I don't want her to think she's not. I don't need to give her a complex (and she's very quick to pick up on the unsaid). But, I don't want her to think that she's only pretty. It's a fine line.

[nextcommercial]

Originally Posted by Lazurii 

I guess I was looking for more support that girls really can be born loving girly things and I'm not a complete failure at providing neutral interests.

I always get sad when I see  an anti-girl movement.  I realize it's popular here, but honestly, it's a little sad.

I have a daycare boy who is not allowed to color with pink.  His mom will flat out refuse to take home a picture he's done if he's used "girl colors".  But, he has a six year old sister who is forbidden to wear girl's clothes.  She's allowed to have long hair, but will never own a girl toy, girls clothes, or anything pink.  She WANTS to have those things, but she can't because mom hates all things girly.  

Edited by nextcommercial - 11/9/11 at 4:07pm

[SweetSilver]

Originally Posted by nextcommercial 

I always get sad when I see  an anti-girl movement.  I realize it's popular here, but honestly, it's a little sad.

This issue is sad on many fronts to me.  But I disagree that this is an anti-girl movement here; what I see is an attempt to find balance, to rediscover what it means to be a girl without pressure from toy marketers and society.  Yeah, sometimes we go too far in the other direction, and sometimes any effort to interest a girl in anything but "girlie" things is unsuccessful.   (My niece was one such girl, the daughter of 2 sports-loving parents.  She was always the princess, not into the sports they loved, but gymnastics and dance and grew up to be a professional cheerleader with stadium-worthy bling in her ears and six-pack abs that would shame a bodybuilder.  My niece is sweet as pie, yet she is a confident, strong and powerful woman, both externally and internally.)

So, I think that we shouldn't reduce this issue to being "anti-girl" movement. 

We are trying to help our daughters discover their own strength.  We also are discovering ourselves.  Our notions of what a powerful woman is, and how they become that way.  It is not a clear path, is it?  In some ways we are all of us, men and women, boys and girls, having to redefine our roles.  No, it is definitely not "anti-girl".

Lazurii, you did not "fail"  because your daughter loves the "girlie" stuff in spite of your attempts at balance.  That stuff isn't bad, and girls don't like it just because the marketers decided they will like it.  She *is* following her heart.  Please, share in her joy without kicking yourself.  I think that is what nextcommercial meant.  (???)

Edited to add:  My niece, by the way, got her BA in English and just finished her Masters in Education, the last year of which included classroom time, a full class load of her own, plus cheerleader practice (and all the extra workouts to support that career.)  All at the same time!  I have so much respect for her.  Now she's a mom herself.  Kick. Ass. Woman.

Edited by SweetSilver - 11/9/11 at 7:35pm

[beanma]

Lazurii, do you have some mama & papa friends who encourage gender neutral and cross-gender boundary play? It seems like in an area "near Portland" that there would be some folks like that and if so they could be folks who are backing you up on encouraging exploring outside the girls will be girls and boys will be boys roles. In my community, I have found that having like-minded friends is much more important than what the relatives (grandma, grandpa, aunts and uncles, etc) say. We see the friends a lot more than the relatives, so I just let those pink and purple sparkly packages from grandma slide and thanked my friends for giving us art supplies, too.

My girls are almost 8 and 10 going on 11. When they were very wee I dressed them very gender neutral and in overalls, etc, because I am so not a girly-girl. I would occasionally bring out something frilly for a photo or a visit to grandma, but by and large I dressed them pretty neutrally until about 12-18 mo when dd1 began to be able to let her opinions known. She loved frilly and sparkly. It was really a bit of a shock for me because in my naivete (first kid, what can I say) I thought she'd be like me and be a tree-climbing tomboy who wouldn't be caught dead in a dress. Guess what? I got that one wrong (along with so many other things).

What worked for me was to redirect that love of sparkle into outlets that were more acceptable to me, but still acceptable to her. I am not into the whole classic princess-waiting-for-her-knight-in-shining-armor-to-save-her thing and I didn't want to reinforce those values, but I did want to acknowledge and accept dd1's interests and preferences and not squash her feelings. So, I encouraged girly/sparkly things like fairies and ballet (tu-tus and the whole 9 yards) rather than Disney princesses and Barbies. We did a little bit of princessness, but they were strong princesses who saved the prince and themselves (ask your children's librarian, there are many books like this). We did My Little Ponies and Groovy Girls instead of Barbie. 

Now at ages almost8 and 10 they're still dancing at a great studio (no body image stuff) and are tree hugging girls with their own fashion sense. Sometimes they dress up "fancy", but it's always unique and rarely market-driven consumeristic crap. They like to create clothes from thrift store finds and do love art and dance and crafts of all kinds, but are also interested in running and science. 

Good luck!

[SweetSilver]

Originally Posted by beanma 

So, I encouraged girly/sparkly things like fairies and ballet (tu-tus and the whole 9 yards) rather than Disney princesses and Barbies. We did a little bit of princessness, but they were strong princesses who saved the prince and themselves (ask your children's librarian, there are many books like this). We did My Little Ponies and Groovy Girls instead of Barbie. 

I told my daughter, "Why settle for being a princess, when you can be a QUEEN?"

My Little Ponies are a favorite in our house, and rarely has a week gone by when they are not carrying some fairy off to somewhere.  We also enjoy Lonely Hearts Club dolls for dress-up.  More often, though, they use the clothes to dress up their animals instead-- little horses, goats, whales, sharks, stingrays, centipedes.....

beanma, this is exactly how it is in our house.  I wanted to point out that in the stories where the princess is the most objectified ("Sleeping Beauty" for example) the real story is the trials that the adolescent Prince must conquer in order to become a man and win her love.  That story is not really hers at all.
 

[hildare]

lastcommercial, can you explain what you mean about "anti-girl?" 

[SweetSilver]

Originally Posted by SweetSilver 

  We also enjoy Lonely Hearts Club dolls for dress-up. 

Ooops.  "Only Hearts" dolls, not the Fab Four.  That does give me an idea to bridge the gap-- an Elton John 1970's Glam Rock Dress-up Doll!  Just think, rhinestones, boas, satin and high heels.  And talk about talent! 

[scottishmommy]

I was a super girlie girl as a child, and I was made to feel ashamed about it. I grew up in a very crunchy community and I remember feeling very uninteresting because I wasn't a tomboy. I was discouraged from dressing the way I wanted, or playing girlie games, or wearing makeup. Well guess what? I'm still a very feminine woman. I don't even own a pair of pants. I chose a feminine career (I'm an opera singer and often play the ingenue). But I'm not a wimp, or overly obsessed with beauty, or intimidated by anyone (except judgmental feminists). Heck, I've even defended myself from a mugging! I'm not less of a person because of my interests. Even still, when I go home I feel like I need to hide my "girliness". It's like I'm less of a person because I highlight my hair and wear pink clothing. I really hate feeling judged for my nature. Let your dd be who she is! No child should feel ashamed of their gender preference!

[hildare]

Originally Posted by Lazurii 

I'm mot sure if this belongs here, so, mods, move if needs be.  Thanks!

My son is almost four.  He likes "boy" things like mud and blocks and trains but he also loves nail polish and tutus and glitter and getting his hair done and pink.  We even painted his room pink because he asked for it.  I'm totally okay with whatever he wants and support his likes and dislikes.

My daughter will be two in March and likes pretty much the same stuff as my son.  But somehow it tweaks me out.  Likes she's too "girly".  At 15 months she already had a firm opinion on clothing and would reject outfits.  She will, however, sit in the mud with her frou-frou dresses and eat bugs.  I have, ashamedly, try to steer her into liking less gender-specific things.

Another thing that bugs me is we're now getting gender specific presents for the kids, and BuggaBoo gets creative stuff and flash cards and books and Doozer get dress-up princess stuff.  And then BuggaBoo and Doozer are fighting over the dress-up and his present is forgotten.  I've told people that BuggaBoo would appreciate dress-up clothes as well, but that's met with blank stares.

So, am I the only one who feels this way?  I am trying very hard to change how I feel, but to see my daughter slip into preconceived gender roles is somehow disheartening.  Like I did something wrong in her upbringing, like I pushed her into it.

been thinking about how to answer you on this one. 

anytime this comes up here, i find that our family is kind of different when it comes to comfort levels with gender, sex, and identity.

honestly, though we are very dissimilar in how we live out the core of what you're getting at, i do understand your motivation or the thoughts, conscious or not, behind your actions. 

the way i see it (and i really don't feel like debating this, that's not why i am posting, i promise i don't care what your kid wears) is that the reason some of us cringe about the pink stuff is because, essentially, it's what is being forced upon girls.  when there are no other options available, and really, there aren't, and something is presented as the only choice for a particular group of people, it's hard not to resist it or feel resentful.  it's not just the color necessarily, it's what it represents: sweetness, passivity, delicateness, or a hundred other adjectives that i personally feel limit exploration, intellectual curiosity, action, etc.  .

the categorization by color and the labels, spoken or not, attached to that color cause problems (i say damage, you might say hesitation/enforcement of gender roles/socialized conscription or whatever) that are harmful specifically to girls. 

at the same time, while imposing rigid roles upon boys is pretty harmful, there is no denying that it is males who hold the power in our society.  it's pretty clear (to me_) that the message being sent and received is that it's OK to embrace attributes of boyhood, and it's kind of freeing for a mom who "lets" or encourages her son to embrace characteristics thought of as female-- nurturing, caring, etc.  and doing so is NOT GOING TO HARM his social capital.  boys who turn into caring men are not going to suddenly stop being powerful. 

the messages sent to girls is a whole other thing... and i feel like you sense that.  and that's why you are so bothered by a girl who wants to adopt what society/media/predominant culture is telling her is what she should be doing. 

i am not sure if i am making much sense, but at any rate....

i consider myself fortunate.  dd has not shown any inclination towards any of that stuff, but we don't have any of it, at all, in the house.  there isn't any pink shiny stuff for her to dress up in and we never go shopping.  we don't watch tv and she stays home with dh, so she doesn't have much exposure to princesses, and consumer culture, etc. 

she does have toys of all kinds, and doesn't seem to express any interest in anything over another except for musical instruments and art supplies.  when our second child comes, he too will have the same stuff to play with.  but we're not going to suddenly have pink stuff for him, either, so i really think we're trying our best to stop any of the ok-for-you-but-not-for-you sentiment; however, i see how you arrived at the situation you describe.

[Lazurii]

Originally Posted by hildare 

been thinking about how to answer you on this one. 

anytime this comes up here, i find that our family is kind of different when it comes to comfort levels with gender, sex, and identity.

honestly, though we are very dissimilar in how we live out the core of what you're getting at, i do understand your motivation or the thoughts, conscious or not, behind your actions. 

the way i see it (and i really don't feel like debating this, that's not why i am posting, i promise i don't care what your kid wears) is that the reason some of us cringe about the pink stuff is because, essentially, it's what is being forced upon girls.  when there are no other options available, and really, there aren't, and something is presented as the only choice for a particular group of people, it's hard not to resist it or feel resentful.  it's not just the color necessarily, it's what it represents: sweetness, passivity, delicateness, or a hundred other adjectives that i personally feel limit exploration, intellectual curiosity, action, etc.  .

the categorization by color and the labels, spoken or not, attached to that color cause problems (i say damage, you might say hesitation/enforcement of gender roles/socialized conscription or whatever) that are harmful specifically to girls. 

at the same time, while imposing rigid roles upon boys is pretty harmful, there is no denying that it is males who hold the power in our society.  it's pretty clear (to me_) that the message being sent and received is that it's OK to embrace attributes of boyhood, and it's kind of freeing for a mom who "lets" or encourages her son to embrace characteristics thought of as female-- nurturing, caring, etc.  and doing so is NOT GOING TO HARM his social capital.  boys who turn into caring men are not going to suddenly stop being powerful. 

the messages sent to girls is a whole other thing... and i feel like you sense that.  and that's why you are so bothered by a girl who wants to adopt what society/media/predominant culture is telling her is what she should be doing. 

i am not sure if i am making much sense, but at any rate....

i consider myself fortunate.  dd has not shown any inclination towards any of that stuff, but we don't have any of it, at all, in the house.  there isn't any pink shiny stuff for her to dress up in and we never go shopping.  we don't watch tv and she stays home with dh, so she doesn't have much exposure to princesses, and consumer culture, etc. 

she does have toys of all kinds, and doesn't seem to express any interest in anything over another except for musical instruments and art supplies.  when our second child comes, he too will have the same stuff to play with.  but we're not going to suddenly have pink stuff for him, either, so i really think we're trying our best to stop any of the ok-for-you-but-not-for-you sentiment; however, i see how you arrived at the situation you describe.

I really agree with most of what you said, especially about men=nurturing=still awesome and girls=nurturing=not as good as men.  IMO, however, the bolded sentence is part of the problem.  You feel fortunate that your little girl is not girly.  Therefore, what I've assumed, you find less value in girly than non-girly.

This lack of value in the feminine is part of my problem.  If feminity was viewed as different but still powerful, like Scottishmommy talked about, then we as a community wouldn't feel the need to steer our girls away from sparkle, or feel fortunate when they don't participate in it.

As for the okay-for-you-but-not-for-you, we don't play that game in our home.  If BuggaBoo gets to do it so does Doozer.  It's just that all the opportunities for Doozer are more present or thrust upon her by others.  I am striving for more equality in the presentation, but it's difficult.

[beanma]

Lazurii, I wanted to come back and let you know the view from the other side. So, as I said up thread, starting about 18 mo my dd1 began to strongly express her clothing preferences. She  LUUUUUUUVVVVED pink and sparkly. I remember going to our new school in Kindy after many years of pinkness and talking with a mom of an older girl. I pointed out which child was mine (the one running around on the playground in all pink, of course) and she said, "oh she's still in the pink phase". I thought to myself, "What phase — I don't ever see this ending". But the pink phase lasted until about 2nd or 3rd grade. Now she says she HATES pink and doesn't really like purple either. Her favorite color now is green. Dd2 also eschews pink (though not quite as vehemently) and her favorite color is chartreuse or fluorescent yellow. They both do still like themselves some sparkles. 

I just had to get to a place where I could roll with what they wanted. I hated pink as a child and all things girly so it was really a stretch for me, but I wanted them to be able to express themselves. I do still try to keep tabs on why they like something. Have they fallen prey to crass stereotypical commercialism? If that's the case then I do try to nip it in the bud. We don't do many licensed character clothing items (I can't think of any, really). And sometimes if the message on the clothing is not something in line with our family values I steer them in another direction (no shorts that say "juicy" across the butt for us). So, my advice would be to look at the reason you don't like something and see if it's just because it's pink or glittery (I got over myself and rolled with those) or if there's something else there (hated the cheap pink and purple plastic Disney princess tea set because of the "princess" motif and the fact that it was poorly made plastic junk). I did buy them trucks and other boy oriented toys, but truth be told they weren't really into the trucks. I liked 'em though!

It probably is a phase. It won't last forever, or if it does you'll be okay with it by then. Keep modeling being a strong woman. She IS a girl. It's okay and developmentally appropriate to identify with her own gender. Many kids do it. Boys really get into being boys and girls really get into being girls. Some of them do cross the boundaries more easily and that's certainly fine, too, but you don't want to inadvertently send the message that girls liking girly stuff are not as worthy as boys liking girly stuff.  

[beanma]

Originally Posted by Lazurii 
I guess I was looking for more support that girls really can be born loving girly things and I'm not a complete failure at providing neutral interests.

Just wanted to say this is soooooooooo true. I was never girly as a girl. People actually often mistook me for a boy (had short hair, wore pants a lot) and I liked that. As a parent, I certainly did not fail to provide neutral interests for my kids, but they just are who they are. I think it helped me some because dd1, who is a wonderful kid, is actually not so much like me and has a lot of traits that remind me of MIL. Although I knew intellectually before I had kids that they would be whoever they would be and would be separate from me, emotionally it was hard to internalize. Sometimes kids really do seem to be "mini-mes", but this one skipped a generation and took after DH's side anyway. So when I was able to really understand that she was a separate person with her own interests and did and would not necessarily share mine I was able to let go and let her be a girly girl if that's who she wanted to be. What's funny is she thinks she's not girly at all now, but she really still is.  She definitely does not identify with the "shop til you drop" girl persona and I think that's part of her reason for hating pink now, but in reality she's just got a very feminine nature. I think another part of the reason she hates pink now is because "pink is for little girls" and she's big now (10). I wouldn't be surprised to see pink make a comeback in high school, but I'm fine with whatever she wants to like as long as it's not demeaning, over-sexualized, too commercial, or disrespectful.
 

[hildare]

Originally Posted by Lazurii 

I really agree with most of what you said, especially about men=nurturing=still awesome and girls=nurturing=not as good as men.  IMO, however, the bolded sentence is part of the problem.  You feel fortunate that your little girl is not girly.  Therefore, what I've assumed, you find less value in girly than non-girly.

This lack of value in the feminine is part of my problem.  If feminity was viewed as different but still powerful, like Scottishmommy talked about, then we as a community wouldn't feel the need to steer our girls away from sparkle, or feel fortunate when they don't participate in it.

As for the okay-for-you-but-not-for-you, we don't play that game in our home.  If BuggaBoo gets to do it so does Doozer.  It's just that all the opportunities for Doozer are more present or thrust upon her by others.  I am striving for more equality in the presentation, but it's difficult.

no, i feel fortunate that my kid hasn't decided that she likes the crap out there that society tells her is "girly."  i totally disagree that those things have anything to do with being born a female.  didn't a bunch of other people say their kids too like sparkly stuff?  those things do not equal feminine. 

i find no value in many things associated with the stuff that is packaged and pushed onto female - and male- children.  concepts included in the packaging are ideas like passive things are for girls, shopping is the most fun anybody can have (but only if you have a vagina!), boys are active, etc. 

the equality in presentation isn't out there. 

i think part of the problem is that we've all internalized some of those messages so much that we really think that those things do = feminine.  i just can't see that so much. 

[SweetSilver]

Originally Posted by hildare 

no, i feel fortunate that my kid hasn't decided that she likes the crap out there that society tells her is "girly."  i totally disagree that those things have anything to do with being born a female.  didn't a bunch of other people say their kids too like sparkly stuff?  those things do not equal feminine. 

So true.  Only in modern society do these things equate with femininity.  At the turn of the 20th century, pink was a masculine color, and men wore shirts made of calico.  A few decades before they had long hair.  Before that, lace and embroidery and make-up, high heels, long curly wigs (at least that upper classes).  Even in the "middle class" there were lace collars for men.  So, really it has been a relatively recent shift in associating these things with girls.

[nextcommercial]

Originally Posted by scottishmommy 

I was a super girlie girl as a child, and I was made to feel ashamed about it. I grew up in a very crunchy community and I remember feeling very uninteresting because I wasn't a tomboy. I was discouraged from dressing the way I wanted, or playing girlie games, or wearing makeup. Well guess what? I'm still a very feminine woman. I don't even own a pair of pants. I chose a feminine career (I'm an opera singer and often play the ingenue). But I'm not a wimp, or overly obsessed with beauty, or intimidated by anyone (except judgmental feminists). Heck, I've even defended myself from a mugging! I'm not less of a person because of my interests. Even still, when I go home I feel like I need to hide my "girliness". It's like I'm less of a person because I highlight my hair and wear pink clothing. I really hate feeling judged for my nature. Let your dd be who she is! No child should feel ashamed of their gender preference!

Thankyou!  This is what I mean by the "Anti girl" movement.  I just don't understand why a child who CHOOSES to love pink sparkly things, and pretty things is less than a person.  I really see the attitude on this site.  (mostly but not exclusively)  There are very few people here that think being girly is as good as being a boy.   Even a boy who likes girly things is awesome, but a girl who likes girly things is "less".  

I was a tomboy growing up, and while my mom tried to get me to wear a dress a few times, she never made me feel like it wasn't OK that I didn't.  I loved all girl toys.  LOVED them.  I didn't like Barbies very much, but loved dolls and horses, and Kiddles and Avon perfumes.  That was fine too, and nobody ever made me feel less worthy for wanting a Pull string talking doll, or a doll that rode on a plastic bike.  Nobody ever tried to steer me towards a tether ball or mini bike instead.  They cared about what I loved, and I loved dolls.