called the cops on my kid...again...is there another option?

[peacepie]

hi. i haven't been in here since my boys were toddlers. my oldest is 17 now, his brother is 15, and my little girl is almost 11.

so. we have had problems with my oldest, it seems, since he turned twelve, maybe 13.

the other two kids are awesome. it seems the only problem we all have is my oldest. he is a demanding bully, who has to get everything his way or he is violent and miserable. we all just want him to move on at this point. both my husband, and i, have been on our own since we were 16, and i really think this would be best for him.

i have tried to get him counseling; he won't go. we have thought we have gotten through to him many times, but he always reverts back to this.

....a bit of background. we are a happy family, married almost 20 years, moved to a small town to raise our kids. he is a typical teen, for the most part. he is respectful of others, except for us. he hates school, understands he needs it, but hates it none the less. he hates me most of all because i insist he goes to school. he has been sleeping in, instead, and so i laid the law down; if you aren't at school on time, you are not allowed to have friends over. so tonite i tried to enforce that. he had been forewarned; this morning when he left for school, late, i said, don't bother bringing any friends over, so i don't have to embarrass you. he has been late or skipped every day this week, and many times before,  and hasn't had friends over, lately, and it hasn't escalated to this yet. so tonite, when his friend showed up, i said, you are not allowed to have friends over, u didn't go to school , this is the rule. (he went to school for an hour today)

so he proceeded to threaten me and smash stuff. (a chair, the vacuum, a dent in the floor, a broken glass.)(towering over me, fists clenched, he will erase my files on the computer, he is going to get me, etc.)(later he said "you are dead")

he has smashed stuff before. and i wish he would get anger management. but he will not follow through on anything i have arranged for him.

i am at the end of my rope. so much so that i sought this forum out, after all these years.

i cannot make him do anything. and i will not apologize for anything i have done to try to get him to go to school. it is all we ask from him. if we try to get him to do a simple chore like unload the dishwasher, it goes undone or half undone. his brother and sister do their chores no problem.

 i am so seriously worried about him. i don't want him to spend the night in jail, as the cop tonite suggested. this is a small town and these same cops were at our door maybe a year ago. but they don't have kids and have no real suggestions that i haven't tried already. he is a big kid and we literally have no control over him. we can't make him get up or go to school or even enforce any punishment we can grasp at. i really feel as if we are being held hostage by him, because we have so few options and he can basically do whatever he wants and we have no say. he has threatened suicide, which almost goes without saying. he tries anything to get his own way.

we have now decided that for christmas, we are going to get him his own place, and i mean, tomorrow(my husband has been at work this eve while all this was going on, this time, but it is an ongoing battle. )

i am loath to get police involved, but my little girl was crying, i was crying, he was threatening me and smashing stuff....i just can't do this another minute. i really feel threatened. by my first baby. this goes against everything i really believed, and ever hoped for. i home birthed and breastfed for years and probably spoiled him with security and love; but all my kids got that, and with no adverse reactions to all that love, on the others.

there aren't a lot of jobs in a small town, i know. but kids do find them. he has no ambition to do anything but sleep, it seems.

i need unbiased advice, i guess. is there something i haven't tried? is getting him his own place with the money we might have gotten his gifts with, a good idea, or short lived?  we cannot support him past that first month. and we do not want him moving back; though, he is our baby, and i could see us letting him back in, if he was desperate. we love him, no matter what. but our happiness as a couple, as a family, is put under so much strain by him. how do i help him without hurting the rest of us?  i think he is scared to move out. and i don't know if we can force him to. but we can't go on another day like this. what else can i do? i always swore as long as he was in school, he could stay with us; anything was worth his education. but it is not fair to our other kids, it is not fair to me. i am miserable. of course he thinks i am a bitch, but i am not, usually. i am so laid back and optimistic. but also a realist.

i would appreciate any experience you can share with me; i appreciate having this resource. i guess i really just needed to commiserate.

thanks in advance for taking the time to read this.

from a fellow mothering mom.

[genifer]

Peacepie, I couldnt not respond after reading. I havent had experience with a child of mine who behaved that way but I do have experience dealing with an adult, who I needed to trust but wanted to behave that way and wanted me to put up with it until I decided I wasnt going to. Im just going to ramble off some thoughts I have on the subject and reflect on how I might handle the situation if I were there. I know it would be absolutely heartbreaking, first of all. There seems to be something very wrong going on here. Could he be on drugs? Do you suspect something could be wrong with his mental state? I personally believe that, considering all the circumstances, calling the police in this instance was/is the best option considering you have younger children in the house. I would consider their safety above everything at this stage. Imho, since you've tried everything in your power to help your oldest son, your youngest children deserve your best. I would make arrangements to move the oldest one out. In other words I would do the tough love approach. If he's not going to school, he's not working, he's not contributing, he has no place within the household. Thats really tough. I hope someone with a bit more experience could help you out a bit more but I would want to make clear that you should not feel guilty for trying to make a safe and secure home enviornment for your younger children. I would most definately have called the police on my son, without an ounce of guilt, if he behaved towards me the way you described your son behaving towards you. No guilt whatsoever, just anger at his audacity and utter disrespect. My husband, his father, wouldnt allow our son into our home for behaving that way towards me, we're a bit old fashioned that way. I can see my dh telling our son, as much as we love him, that he is no longer welcome in our home until he sorts himself out, making clear that we'd always be willing to help him but since he believes he's a big man who can treat his mother that way, he would absolutely not be allowed in our home from the moment he was taken away in that police van. We're old fashioned that way, like I said.

Those are just my thoughts. I havent enough expertise in this area of parenting yet to really give any useful advice. I hope and pray this can be resolved peacefully. You and your family have been very gracious towards your son already, I applaud you for that.

gen

[jess in hawaii]

Honestly, he sounds depressed. Have you looked into what kind of services are available either through a government agency or a local nonprofit? Where I am, the DoH offers mental health services to children up to 20 years old. They can get families set up with counselling, in the home if necessary (but they are by all accounts very helpful, not overly invasive) and we also have an organization that helps families coordinate with other resources like Big Brothers/Big Sisters (that's just the first thing that came to mind to give you an idea, they do other stuff for older kids too). Maybe there is something like that in your area? Until he is a legal adult you are legally obligated to meet his needs, unless you emancipate him, but I just noticed you are in BC so I have no idea if that's even an option. Have you spoken to anyone at his school? They, especially the counselors, may have a suggestion. I am sure you want to do what is best for everyone by getting him his own place, but if he is depressed or has some other issue that he needs real help with, it won't be good for him. Good luck mama.

[whatsnextmom]

The problem is, he's still a minor. You will have to look at the legalities of him living on his own and if it doesn't work, you are still liable for him, and could still get CPS called on you (effecting the rest of the kids who AREN'T having issues.) Unless he's willing to be emancipated (which means taking the high school equivalency test in most states) I wouldn't go this route until he's 18. Plus, if you can only cover a month, there really is no legal way for him to sustain it. Even if he hustled and got a job first day, it's unlikely he'd make enough in time to cover the rent for the following month unless he turned to selling drugs or something.

Big hugs to you. My little brother was brilliant and deeply emotional but also disturbed and violent. It's really, really hard to live with and there is so much that is not in your control. My parents did everything "right" and took every option and opportunity. They paid for years of therapy starting at the age of 8 but eventually, he just refused to talk. He was on medication for depression, they tried private alternative school, tough love, they did everything they possibly could but in the end, it was up to my brother to find his way and he really didn't until he was about 30. His childhood was just to be survived as sad as that sounds. At this point, he is married, steady job, self-sufficient. He still blames us for everything and takes no responsibility for what he did to our family (and thus, we are not close at all) but there is comfort in knowing he is alive, fed, sheltered and loved.

I would encourage him to try and take the GED (which is usually for 18 and up) or whatever your state high school equivalency test option for minors is as it's unlikely you'll be able to get him in enough school this year to graduate. He may consider it if it gets him out of having to go to school. That would be at least one argument. This would allow him to work as an adult (not that he would but he could and so would at least give him the option.) I'd be upfront that you are planning on him leaving the house by a certain date (like his 18th birthday) and that he'll need to raise a certain amount to survive.... then you'll have to follow through whether he raises the money or not. Actually go through the various costs he'll have (very calmly and matter-of-fact.)

I, too, would be hesitant about getting the police involved but at the same time, he is a minor and so if it's going to happen, better now where he'd be under juvenile law (and I think they have to separate him from adults at this point even in overnight lock-up.) I'd tell him that next violent outburst will result in a call (again, when you are calm) and then, follow through. Maybe it's to the point where you go to family services yourself and ask for help. They may be able to place him in a group home if you are to the point where you don't feel safe. It could put you under scrutiny but you do need to keep yourself and your other children safe.

[peacepie]

thank you so much for your replies. i went to bed thinking i should get up and delete this thread; it makes us all sound so horrible. but i am glad i didn't. i don't think i will be harshly judged, in here....

thanks, gen, and you are right; my younger kids really don't deserve this situation, and i really do have to do what's right for them.

so; he smokes weed; which is another on going battle. i can't control what he does outside of the house, but it isn't allowed here.

he doesn't really drink or do anything else, though; and really, i think with the amount of stress and anxiety in his life, it could be much worse.

there is a program called 'LIFT" here, "living in families with teens".... we tried it last year, and really i wasn't impressed with their 'counseling'; and my son didn't want to go back. he doesn't think there is anything wrong with him; he just thinks we should always let him get his own way.

i am sure he is depressed, sometimes; he thinks he has it harder than everyone else, and 'no one understands'; but he has many great friends and really has fun in life. it's just 'the system' he hates. he plays his guitar and hangs out with his friends, and just hates school; and we are the bad guys for trying to get him up in the morning and imposing consequences. i had been thinking i can legally have him removed when he is 18; the cop told me last night i can legally get him out when he turns 16. so now, we have what sounds like a great idea; we will get him his place, start him out; i will buy him groceries so i know he has food; then leave him to his own devices. he knows he has to finish school, but i am worried he will just choose to stay up all night and sleep all day.

we are constantly talking to the school, in fact we have an appointment with the principal tomorrow. they have given him every opportunity there; learning at home courses so he can catch up, alternative programs which concentrate on his weak areas; but he just doesn't do it. i research a lot on the net, too; and as one parent said in another forum, "all our meetings proved is that we were really great at coming up with plans." we can decide on whatever plan we want, but his attitude prevents it from being successful.

i really worry most of all that he will get depressed enough to hurt himself. but i believe his friends would be there for him. and i can't let that worry dictate our situation. from what i have read that is a typical tactic to get his own way.

he knows how much he is loved, and has admitted he takes advantage of that, that he knows he can get away with anything. but i cannot stand being bullied into giving him his own way. i still won't let him have friends over; what will he do next?

Last night he got up in the middle of the night, came downstairs, was lying on the couch and his dad told him to go to bed; he did, but went back down after we fell back asleep. he came back up this morning, when we were getting up, and now he will probably sleep in. and what can i do, but drive myself crazy over it? not much. i can plan on getting him his own place. it is the only way i feel i have any control, or will get any relief.

thanks again for listening, and for the advice:)

[allthesekids]

I am so, so sorry you are going through this. I have a 16 year old that I struggle with as well, though I have not had the issues you have with the violence, we have had trouble with him attending school. I would let him spend the night in jail. Anything to get him to understand that he WILL be responsible for his own life and own choices. I would also consider pressing charges for him damaging property in your home, and hopefully he would have to go before a juvenile delinquency judge, and you may be able to get some resources mandated by the court, like the anger management you were referring to. While I completely understand and empathize with your desire to get him his own apartment, it honestly won't work. He is not employed, he is only 16, it will most likely be a short-term waste of money and time. I pray solutions and hope will come to your family...

[peacepie]

just read whatsnext mom; we posted at the same time.

i think we might just have to do what we can for him and hope for the best. it might take him a few years to grow up, but i think he will be okay eventually. he is smart and loving and has good principles. no accountability though; he will probably never be sorry, either, for all he puts us through. he threatens to do cocaine just so he can show us how much worse he could be; as if that justifies his behaviour.

but i think you have a point. we may just have to wait it out. can't see him ever getting a job; i was hoping he would get student welfare to help him with his rent. i am sure there is government support out there  if he looks for it. and we would help him out when we could. i would make sure he has food.

gotta go help the others ready for school; thanks again:)

[genifer]

Peacepie, another option is to homeschool him for his last few years. It might be something he'd be willing to compromise on. I wonder if you've tried this route, if you havent, I wonder if it would be something that could give him the freedom he wants and an area where all of you could lay down your 'weapons' down and come to a place of compromise. Is it an option?

[JollyGG]

It sounds to me like your best bet would be to find out if your area has an home for at risk youth that he can be enrolled in. Something like this (http://youthemergencyservices.org/whoweare.htm) or this (http://www.mccrossan.org/) but local to you.

I am in the states, but I've never lived anywhere that didn't have something like that, at least, in the region.

[beanma]

I would sit down with him and try to work out a plan, listening and writing down his suggestions as well as your own. I'd say to him, "We all know this isn't working. We need to come up with another plan that will work. I want to hear your ideas." I've done this exercise with my kids since they were small, but it's great for adults, too. There's something about seeing it all on paper that helps you focus and let's the other person know that you're taking their concerns seriously. The way we do it, I write down the problem at the top of the page and then we list all the possible solutions we can come up with making no comment on the other person's suggestion until the very end. You explain that idea — that anything is fair game initially and not to be commented on. So for us since our kids are young we sometimes get silly suggestions like "cover it in marshmallows!" or impractical suggestions like "tear up my homework" or "never go to school again", BUT you write them down anyway and don't comment on them until you both run out of ideas. So, I imagine he might suggest that you "leave him the he11 alone and go F%$# yourself". I might not write down the F%$#  yourself part, because it's so disrespectful, but you could write down the "leave him the he!! alone" part, or if he will write you could let him do it and leave whatever he writes. Certainly put down all the good suggestions you've gotten above and suggest that you could get him started in a new place with one month's rent, calling the police, him suddenly turning over a new leaf, him getting help from a doctor, family counseling — all the ideas that you can think of together. Often there is more than one idea that is worth pursuing. Maybe you get him a new place and contact a doctor about checking him out for depression, or maybe you can contact someone about getting him a job, etc. Take turns crossing off the ideas that really won't work (cover it in marshmallows, smashing your computer), and hopefully you're left with some of his ideas and some of your ideas. 

If he's okay with the idea of his own place I don't think it's a bad idea. He will probably still need a lot of support, both financially and emotionally. You would probably need to provide the financial support, but there may be an organization that can provide some emotional/mental health support in your area.

Obviously, I haven't had to deal with this situation, but I do have a relative that had to. Her son threw a brick at her head (missed) and I think they kicked him out the next day. He's grown now with kids of his own and a business of his own, but he's always struggled with alcoholism, and really had a rough go of it after they kicked him out. He partied all the time and had an apartment swimming in empty beer cans, etc. I think there are things they wish they had handled differently, but he is the kind of person who's really headstrong and does not respond well to being told what to do. That's one reason I think the written Collaborative Problem Solving approach I outlined above could potentially be helpful if he will cooperate. If he won't cooperate with that at all you might like to look at some other Collaborative Problem Solving techniques. Google "collaborative problem solving" and +teen for some ideas. This is an approach that has been successfully used with young kids so you may get a lot of hits on that, but it's also been used successfully in juvenile detention facilities and inpatient psychiatry units, so it's not at all just a little kids approach.

I think he needs to have some autonomy, and needs to know that obviously he can't tear things up or disrupt your family or scare your younger kids, but he needs help. I know you said you've tried counseling before, and maybe a different approach would help — maybe he needs to be out on his own and getting counseling. I do agree that you need to protect your younger kids, but try to let your ds1 collaborate on the solution(s) you come up with be it leaving the house or trying counseling again or what. 

good luck!

[whatsnextmom]

Originally Posted by genifer 

Peacepie, another option is to homeschool him for his last few years. It might be something he'd be willing to compromise on. I wonder if you've tried this route, if you havent, I wonder if it would be something that could give him the freedom he wants and an area where all of you could lay down your 'weapons' down and come to a place of compromise. Is it an option?

I'd probably not go the homeschooling route at this stage. The last thing she needs is more stuff to try and make him do. Being his teacher wouldn't be a good level to add to this dynamic. There are virtual schools and charter options that would dismiss her from them but they require a high level of self-discipline from the child which this boy doesn't seem to have currently. I still think trying to test out is his best bet. The biggest reason not to is it would kick him our of running for a 4-year university but doesn't seem like he's on that track anyway. This would at least give him a high school equivalency for work purposes and if he ever decided to go back to school, he could go the community college route.

[Mummoth]

Okay, you said he could stay there as long as he's in school, but he really isn't when he's skipping that much, is he? Try to forget about school... he can get his GED or go to night school when he figures out he needs an education, but it sounds like he can't be forced to do the work now. So he needs to find somewhere to be. I'd give him notice, maybe until the end of the year, and then he's out. I wouldn't bother finding him a place and paying the first month... it's not reality, having someone pay all your bills... he'll think it's great until an eviction notice shows up on his door and all that money will have gone to waste. Besides, if he has 6 weeks before he has to get out he can find a job and a place himself, right? Or he can choose not to and see how far couch surfing gets him. Spend the money changing your locks, or put it in a bank account for him for when he gets his act together, or get him some steel-toed boots and some work gloves or something like that. Maybe look into what resources are available in your town... some trades only require grade 10, not graduation. Maybe there's a work-today/paid-today job shop. Is there a food bank? Shelter? Soup kitchen? Where are the second hand stores? Is there a resource that could help him produce a resume? Does the library have computers where he could build a resume? Does he have a cell phone? It'd be generous of you to continue paying the bill for that for him for a few months, if it's the case already (he'll need a number for finding work) Hopefully he'll get his resume together before he's out, but if not I'd let him know your printer is available for him to use for that. He is welcome for supper on Sundays (or whenever you're comfortable with, once a week or so) If what he needs is to be out on his own, then let him really be out on his own! 

[peacepie]

thank you so much for all your input. lots to think about.

home schooling isn't an option, though i thought of it. he hates me enough already, i would not be an effective teacher.

and ditto to him spending the night in jail. he is already out to get me, i don't want to fuel the fire.

but we cannot let things go on this way, and i can't pretend nothing happened. he was actually at school on time yesterday, and it looks like he is trying to be on time again today(of course, i stressed to him that we are meeting with the principal today and it would be nice if he was on time today especially.)

i do like that idea of making up a list; but he is so apathetic, it would be hard to get him to contribute to that...though he does have his moments. i may try it yet, when he is in a good enough mood.

he has a resume, there is a great employment center here in town. there is a food bank etc. here too. though i would not have a problem with providing the basic groceries for him. i still feel he is our responsibility. he would be home to eat, a lot, i think...but then he doesn't really eat at home now. he goes to 7 11 where his friend works, and eats junk pizza and stuff, instead. part of the bigger picture, he is not giving his body what it needs.

getting his GED is definetly an option; i think that is what the principal will say to us, today...

i gotta run, thanks again. i'll be back...

[JellyMomma]

Originally Posted by Mummoth 

Okay, you said he could stay there as long as he's in school, but he really isn't when he's skipping that much, is he? Try to forget about school... he can get his GED or go to night school when he figures out he needs an education, but it sounds like he can't be forced to do the work now. So he needs to find somewhere to be. I'd give him notice, maybe until the end of the year, and then he's out. I wouldn't bother finding him a place and paying the first month... it's not reality, having someone pay all your bills... he'll think it's great until an eviction notice shows up on his door and all that money will have gone to waste. Besides, if he has 6 weeks before he has to get out he can find a job and a place himself, right? Or he can choose not to and see how far couch surfing gets him. Spend the money changing your locks, or put it in a bank account for him for when he gets his act together, or get him some steel-toed boots and some work gloves or something like that. Maybe look into what resources are available in your town... some trades only require grade 10, not graduation. Maybe there's a work-today/paid-today job shop. Is there a food bank? Shelter? Soup kitchen? Where are the second hand stores? Is there a resource that could help him produce a resume? Does the library have computers where he could build a resume? Does he have a cell phone? It'd be generous of you to continue paying the bill for that for him for a few months, if it's the case already (he'll need a number for finding work) Hopefully he'll get his resume together before he's out, but if not I'd let him know your printer is available for him to use for that. He is welcome for supper on Sundays (or whenever you're comfortable with, once a week or so) If what he needs is to be out on his own, then let him really be out on his own! 

I agree with this...I think it's time for some tough love. He wants all the freedom of being an adult without any of the responsibility. Sit him down and say something like 'Look, I understand you want the freedom of an adult.  We're trying to make choices for you and you are resisting.  So we've decided that we need to try letting you make the decisions.  You've obviously decided that you want to quit school (assuming that is a legal option?  In NH kids can quit at 16 with parental permission).  I think it's a bad idea but it's your decision.  So no high school diploma means no college.  You need to make some decisions about how you'll support yourself with no diploma.  Your behavior is dangerous and disruptive and it won't continue under our roof.  If it does happen I'll call the police and you will spend at least one night in jail. 

Start doing your research into the ramifications with CPS.  I'd be proactive and call them if I were you.  Find out how he can become an emancipated adult...Find out what options you/he have.  But above all, let him know that he is in the driver's seat.  If he doesn't want to go to school then he has to grow up pretty fast. Tell him exactly what you're doing:  'I will call Child Protective Services to find out what we need to do to have you live on your own, make all your own decisions, find an apartment and support yourself.  What we're doing now is not working and it can't continue' ...even if you have an idea that there is no way to make this happen, let him see that you are serious about letting him be an adult.  Call his bluff -- you want to grow up? --okay, here you go.  It's all on you now. 'You are making decisions as if you are still a child and you need to make adult decisions because we, as adults, will no longer make them for you. Until you find a place of your own you will be treated like a paying tenant.  Your rent will be xxx per month.  These are the rules of the house _____' 

This won't be easy but he will never grow up if you don't start letting him suffer the consequences of his immaturity and irresponsibility.  The fact that he's still interested in hanging out with his friends makes me question whether or not he's depressed.  He may just feel overwhelmed with school/life and be waiting for someone to fix it for him.  That's typical behavior for a child.  He's living in the moment with no regard for the future or for anyone but himself.  I think a few years (or maybe just months) without you to bail him out will really make him grow up. 

[JellyMomma]

Originally Posted by peacepie 

and ditto to him spending the night in jail. he is already out to get me, i don't want to fuel the fire.

but we cannot let things go on this way,

(((BIG HUGS))) I know this is hard but your job is not to make him like you right now--it's to make him take responsbility for his own life.  If his actions land him in jail then so be it...that's how life works and the sooner he learns it the better...

[Vancouver Mommy]

Hugs, mama. You'd mentioned you lived in a small town. I would suggest you talk to either the RCMP, your doctor or the school to get in touch with an agency who provides contract services for the Ministry of Children and Families (I think most services have been contracted out). If you are able to reach a social worker or a family support worker, ask to be put in touch with a family counselor. They will be able to advise you on your options. I would strongly advise against spending your own money to set him up in an apartment. Given his violent tendencies you are likely to end up with a very expensive bill for damages. However, I would be firm about the conditions under which he remains under your roof. Perhaps either in school or working and paying rent. I know it seems like his decisions are jeopardizing his future, but there are options for finishing school later in life or writing a GED. It sounds a bit like a battle of wills (which I'm sure you've realized you won't win), so why don't you try asking yourself what would happen if you just withdrew from it? Put your relationship first and try to let the other stuff go, if you can.

If having him remain in your home is too disruptive to your younger children, there may be a semi-independent living foster care situation available, but if he hasn't been involved in the "system" do date it may be hard to jump in at that age. I think the Ministry would have something to say about putting a 17 yo out on their own (although I agree with you that he is probably old enough). I have to agree with one of the other posters, though, who said that it sounds like there might be something else going on. This behaviour is pretty over the top, especially in a kid who has not had a violent, traumatic childhood. I would try and get a mental health assessment to rule some things out.

I would urge you to be very consistent with how you deal with aggression and threats of violence. I think you did the right thing by calling the police. He needs to understand that his behaviour is not OK. His behaviour does not show respect (for you, your husband, your other kids or himself), so you simply must demand it by setting boundaries and sticking to them no matter how difficult (even if that means calling the cops). This is important for several reasons. First, you deserve to be safe in your own home. Second, your younger children have the right to live in a safe environment, and furthermore, need to see their mother stand up for them and for herself. Third, you son needs to learn that bullying (especially of women) is not OK, and he needs to learn it now.

A member of my family had a similar difficult time with her youngest (although quite a bit worse than what you describe, and with more early childhood trauma). I am happy to say that even though their relationship was severed for a while (probably a couple of years), his is now working in a stable job, has a lovely girlfriend and a nice home and calls his mom every week. He is kind, and loving and insightful and reminds me of the lovely little boy we knew so many years ago. And there was a time when we all thought some form of incarceration was this kids "best" hope.

[Linda on the move]

Has he been evaluated for mental illness? 

Are there options in BC for homes for teen boys? There are some in the states set up for boys who either have criminal records or cannot live at home due to issues. It keeps them safe and of trouble, provides structure and education, and tries to get them on to a better path before adulthood. I've no idea what the options would be in your part of Canada.

My only other thought is the military.

I don't see how getting an apartment will help -- it may put the problems off temporarily, but because he lacks funds to maintain it and jobs are scarce where you live, it seems like it would be setting him up to fail.

The violent outburst seem very, very troubling, and I wonder if he needs real mental health help.

[Just1More]

What kind of involvement does your dh have?  Sounds like maybe he's gone alot, but your ds will listen to him?

I ask because I know of a situation similiar to this.  Not to the extreme, but the kid was getting out of control really, really fast.  The dad pulled all chalks and spent massive amounts of time with the boy.  It came to blows (the boy started it), and the boy did wind up spending a night or two in jail.  But his dad was there, over and over.  Picking him up, putting him back in his place, and showing him that he still loved him.  The boy came through, and the relationship, while rocky for a time, was never severed.  In fact, his now wife came from a rough background and said that she would do whatever it took to learn to be a family like the one he had growing up.

[Thisbirdwillfly]

Hugs to you, Mama.  I think you've gotten a lot of great ideas in this thread and I agree that getting him his own apartment is, most likely, a set up for more failure.  Best of luck to you and your boy.

[HappyHappyMommy]

Hugs OP. It sounds like you are in a very difficult situation and that you have tried a lot of things to take care of yourself, your oldest son, your other children, and your family as a whole. It sounds like you are in a lot of pain over this (understandably!) and I wanted to suggest that, in addition to what you are doing for your family, to think about what you need for yourself. Seeing an individual counselor (or you and your husband seeing a counselor together) might help you with both figuring out what you want to do and with coming to peace with this painful situation. Another thing is to see if there is a support group where you could connect with other parents who are experiencing similar situations.

With regards to your son, I am not the parent of a teen (yet) but I have worked with teens.

Originally Posted by Vancouver Mommy 
I would try and get a mental health assessment to rule some things out.

Originally Posted by Linda on the move  The violent outburst seem very, very troubling, and I wonder if he needs real mental health help.

I agree with the two PPs above. I know that you mentioned that your son has been resistant to counseling, but it wasn't clear if he has had a full evaluation for mental illness. There are many illnesses that typically have an onset when a person is in adolescence/going through puberty. If you feel he is a danger to himself (which is sounds like since you said he has expressed suicidal thoughts and intentions) and a danger to others (which is sounds like he is to you and your other children), those are two signs of mental illness and, for your safety and his, you may want to consider a seeing if an involuntary admission to an in-patient psychiatric program is an option.

I support you in wanting to have him out of your house (in fact, based on what you said, I think it's essential for your safety and your other children's safety) and I think you are being so thoughtful in trying to find a way to meet that need and also meet the need of having your son in a safe place. However, I agree with the other posters that I don't think that setting him up with his own apartment will be successful--for him or for you.

I will be thinking of you and your whole family and sending you support with this journey you are on.