What is your arrangement for this Christmas? - Page 2

[autumngrey]

Lee's Girl- DSD's mom lived by the same games (there was always something more important than seeing her dad) at Christmas and other family holidays. She would agree to let him pick her up at some specific time, then if we were "lucky" we'd get a day or two's notice that there was something else for DSD to do. Other times we'd find out when DH was already on his way to pick up DSD. Ultimately the games led to the end of the informal agreement. He got a lawyer, then a court order giving him these holidays on an alternating schedule (among a lot of other things that made her pretty angry). He didn't get any Thanksgiving, Easter or Christmas with DSD until there was an order. At first, DSD's mom bucked the order. The first Christmas DSD was "too sick" to come, and when the story didn't convince DH not to exercise the holiday time, mom brought DSD to the emergency room and had a battery of tests run. Even the hospital doctors saying there was nothing wrong with DSD couldn't convince mom to let her leave. It was miserable and I felt so bad for DSD who kept asking us (once we finally got her a couple days later) to tell her mom that she wasn't sick and to stop taking her to the doctor when she wasn't sick.

That really stinks that she wouldn't let your DSS be a part of your wedding either. I'm curious what part of the parenting plan could enable her to prevent DSS from being part of your wedding (assuming you scheduled it during a weekend that was already "yours"). I was really afraid of DSD's mom preventing her from being at our wedding given her history--and she did put in a minor effort, telling DSD that she should call and ask to go home before the wedding--but it worked out OK in the end. DSD told us that's what she was supposed to do but that she didn't want to.

I would definitely make an attempt to pick up DSS when the order says for Christmas, and every other weekend for that matter, and document your attempt. Our routine is for me to take a picture of DH knocking on ex's door with a timestamp, and when she doesn't answer, he texts her saying he's there to pick up DSD and he knocked on her door and no one answered. She generally responds admitting she's not home and doesn't intend to hand over DSD, so we've never used the photos in court, the texts have been sufficient to document her behavior. I've heard some people suggest filing a police report (not calling the police to the house, just filing a report) to document the attempt, but I've never tried that because DH is vehemently against it, afraid it will get him in some kind of trouble. My DH was somewhat against trying to pick up DSD when his ex already stated she didn't intend to follow the ordered time because the ~$50 in gas expense when he knew he wouldn't come home with his daughter seemed like a "waste" to him. I finally convinced him that he would be spending the money if he got his daughter so put it in the budget and spend it regardless, even if it was his ex's objective just to waste his money and time. If ex convinces you to not try the pick-up, she can go back to the court later and say she didn't interfere at all, but that you didn't show up! So always try. The sooner you try, the sooner she'll have no choice but to let it happen and the less likely DSS will remember a time without dad being a part of Christmas (or his life in general, it sounds like). And if she's refusing weekends in general, especially if she refuses Christmas to boot, I'd file a complaint with the court. It won't get back the missed time, but hopefully will affect the future.

[VocalMinority]

Originally Posted by Lee'sGirl 

I keep trying to see things from her POV, and hoping that she really is trying to do what's best for DSS but I'm having a harder time doing so every time she comes up with a new & creative way to torture DH. 

Been there!  (Well, I guess I'm still there, in terms of trying to see things from the ex's POV.)  

But when you do cruel things to a child because the child's needs/feelings/rights matter less to you than your own feelings/agenda, that's abuse.  So, depriving a child of contact with a loving parent for 3 months; never letting a child celebrate special occasions with a parent; forcing unnecessary medical exams on a child (below) - all in the name of hurting your hated ex - is abuse.  

If a father beats his child, no one bends over backwards to see his POV or to believe he's acting in the child's best interest.  Sure, people may acknowledge that the father's own, unfortunate upbringing contributed to his poor parenting.  People may hope he gets help.  But people feel no obligation to twist their minds into pretzels, trying to see how he's doing the right thing.  Mothers deserve no more benefit of the doubt, when they abuse their kids by sabotaging their relationships with loving fathers.

Originally Posted by autumngrey 

...She would agree to let him pick her up at some specific time, then if we were "lucky" we'd get a day or two's notice that there was something else for DSD to do. Other times we'd find out when DH was already on his way to pick up DSD... He didn't get any Thanksgiving, Easter or Christmas with DSD until there was an order... The first Christmas DSD was "too sick" to come, and when the story didn't convince DH not to exercise the holiday time, mom brought DSD to the emergency room and had a battery of tests run...

DSD's mom... (told) DSD that she should call and ask to go home before the wedding...

I would definitely make an attempt to pick up DSS when the order says for Christmas, and every other weekend for that matter, and document your attempt. Our routine is for me to take a picture of DH knocking on ex's door with a timestamp, and when she doesn't answer, he texts her saying he's there to pick up DSD and he knocked on her door and no one answered. She generally responds admitting she's not home and doesn't intend to hand over DSD, so we've never used the photos in court, the texts have been sufficient to document her behavior. I've heard some people suggest filing a police report (not calling the police to the house, just filing a report) to document the attempt, but I've never tried that because DH is vehemently against it, afraid it will get him in some kind of trouble.

IME, here are the pros and cons:

* You SHOULD worry about looking bad, for exposing kids to police unnecessarily.  It's very upsetting.

* However, I think it's pretty universal throughout the US that police will not enforce civil orders.  So, police should have minimal to no contact with Mom and DSD, if called to verify that your DH showed up to try to exercise his parenting time; and that he did not wind up with the child.

* Police reports are not actually admissible "evidence" in court, so judges are not required to accept them; or opposing counsel can have them thrown out.  (A police report only verifies what someone told the officer; not what actually happened, which the officer wasn't around to see, since people generally call police after something happens.)  

* On the other hand, family court judges generally have more discretion, as to what they can consider in determining the best interest of a child (compared to a criminal judge, who must follow strict rules of evidence for a conviction).  So, if you show up in court with a stack of police reports showing that over and over, your DH showed up but was denied visitation; the judge may not officially consider those reports "proof" of anything, but they might go far toward making your DH seem more credible than his ex-wife.  That matters!

My DH was somewhat against trying to pick up DSD when his ex already stated she didn't intend to follow the ordered time because the ~$50 in gas expense when he knew he wouldn't come home with his daughter seemed like a "waste" to him. I finally convinced him that he would be spending the money if he got his daughter so put it in the budget and spend it regardless, even if it was his ex's objective just to waste his money and time. If ex convinces you to not try the pick-up, she can go back to the court later and say she didn't interfere at all, but that you didn't show up!  Ab-so-lutely!  You gave him good advice!

[Lee'sGirl]

Thanks Jeannine - it's nice to know I'm not crazy, when I think these things!  Sometimes it helps just to know that DH & I aren't alone - that other families out there either have BTDT or are dealing with similar situations currently.  Family is of course willing to listen, but they don't really get it - they keep saying things like "but she can't do that, can she?".  No, technically she can't but she DOES.  She kept DH so beaten down for so long, that he often buys into the whole "I can't stop her" thing - and the kicker is, she'll keep doing this stuff as long as she is allowed to.

[Lee'sGirl]

Thanks for the advice, autumngrey.  I'll talk to DH about trying that.  It's hard to get him to, though, since he gets SO worked up (once he's back in the car or hangs up the phone or whatever) every time she plays her games.

As for the wedding thing, yes it was in the paperwork that DSS is to be made available for any major family events - and we specified weddings as one of those things - with at least 2 weeks notice.  She was given almost a month's notice & had said it was fine right until the end, then it was "we might have plans" and "I didn't give permission for him to go".  The criteria that she wound up using was something that, honestly, I had reservations about before DH signed the divorce & parenting plan paperwork but hindsight is always 20/20, right?  Anyway, the only way she would give him the divorce (despite the fact that SHE told him to leave 4 years ago this Christmas, SHE had already left once for 3 months - leaving DH & DSS at HER parents' house where they lived their entire marriage, and SHE already has an almost 3 year old with her current boyfriend - obviously she had no desire to reconcile) was if he agreed to some sort of alcohol treatment.  DH is not an alcoholic (he has approx. 2 beers a night if we have a few extra dollars that week - if not, then not. She's projecting issues with her own father onto him.  There are also some MAJOR control issues at play (I've known her for a very long time - there has always been control issues).  DH had an attorney who unfortunately didn't tell him that she couldn't enforce that with a judge unless she could prove that it affected his parenting ability.  If there is no program, there is no visitation.  We get that, and are actively working on getting him into a program that we can afford & that will accept him (the last one we contacted said he didn't qualify), but the irritating part is that she didn't push that AT ALL from when the divorce was finalized until now.  I think I said that part before - sorry about that, I just get a bit worked up. I hate seeing my guys hurt.  I keep reminding DH that all we can do is try to make sure that he is in compliance on everything & use her stunts to prove character & behavior patterns if things don't improve soon.  Well, that and keep trying to have contact with DSS. 

After re-reading this, I am a bit concerned that I may be coming off overly critical of DSS's mom & overly defensive of DH.  I really don't mean to, and hope it isn't taken that way - I am just frustrated and venting a bit tonight.

Edited by Lee'sGirl - 11/27/11 at 9:23pm

[VocalMinority]

Originally Posted by Lee'sGirl 

...Family is of course willing to listen, but they don't really get it - they keep saying things like "but she can't do that, can she?".  No, technically she can't but she DOES...

I, too, have always been amused to hear "But she can't do that!"  DH has heard it from people who should know better - attorneys, judges, a mediator...  Yeah, well, if YOU'RE not going to do anything about it and neither are the cops, then she very well CAN do it, and she knows it.  

Giving custody to the more reasonable parent - the one who's not trying to cut the other one out of the picture - shifts the balance of power in a much more functional direction.  It doesn't necessarily reduce the conflict, but it means things are usually the way your husband thinks they should be, unless Mom works to convince someone to overrule him; instead of her position being the default.  But that can be a long, expensive battle.
 

[Mummoth]

Originally Posted by Lee'sGirl 

Thanks for the advice, autumngrey.  I'll talk to DH about trying that.  It's hard to get him to, though, since he gets SO worked up (once he's back in the car or hangs up the phone or whatever) every time she plays her games.

As for the wedding thing, yes it was in the paperwork that DSS is to be made available for any major family events - and we specified weddings as one of those things - with at least 2 weeks notice.  She was given almost a month's notice & had said it was fine right until the end, then it was "we might have plans" and "I didn't give permission for him to go".  The criteria that she wound up using was something that, honestly, I had reservations about before DH signed the divorce & parenting plan paperwork but hindsight is always 20/20, right?  Anyway, the only way she would give him the divorce (despite the fact that SHE told him to leave 4 years ago this Christmas, SHE had already left once for 3 months - leaving DH & DSS at HER parents' house where they lived their entire marriage, and SHE already has an almost 3 year old with her current boyfriend - obviously she had no desire to reconcile) was if he agreed to some sort of alcohol treatment.  DH is not an alcoholic (he has approx. 2 beers a night if we have a few extra dollars that week - if not, then not. She's projecting issues with her own father onto him.  There are also some MAJOR control issues at play (I've known her for a very long time - there has always been control issues).  DH had an attorney who unfortunately didn't tell him that she couldn't enforce that with a judge unless she could prove that it affected his parenting ability.  If there is no program, there is no visitation.  We get that, and are actively working on getting him into a program that we can afford & that will accept him (the last one we contacted said he didn't qualify), but the irritating part is that she didn't push that AT ALL from when the divorce was finalized until now.  I think I said that part before - sorry about that, I just get a bit worked up. I hate seeing my guys hurt.  I keep reminding DH that all we can do is try to make sure that he is in compliance on everything & use her stunts to prove character & behavior patterns if things don't improve soon.  Well, that and keep trying to have contact with DSS. 

After re-reading this, I am a bit concerned that I may be coming off overly critical of DSS's mom & overly defensive of DH.  I really don't mean to, and hope it isn't taken that way - I am just frustrated and venting a bit tonight.

These programs won't accept him because he doesn't have an alcohol problem? Would he be able to get a letter stating the fact? Has he had the same employer long enough that he'd be willing to ask his boss for a letter stating that he's never been drunk or hung over at work, and that they've seen no indication of an addiction? I bet the Dr. could check him out for the illnesses that are commonly caused by excessive drinking. Then he can go back to court and say that he agreed to taking a program because he was willing to jump through whatever hoops it took to get the divorce finalized/ have an agreement in place to see his kid, but that it's turned out to be a lot more difficult than anticipated because they tell him that he'd be wasting their time and resources because he doesn't have a problem!

[Lee'sGirl]

Originally Posted by Jeannine 

I, too, have always been amused to hear "But she can't do that!"  DH has heard it from people who should know better - attorneys, judges, a mediator...  Yeah, well, if YOU'RE not going to do anything about it and neither are the cops, then she very well CAN do it, and she knows it.  

Giving custody to the more reasonable parent - the one who's not trying to cut the other one out of the picture - shifts the balance of power in a much more functional direction.  It doesn't necessarily reduce the conflict, but it means things are usually the way your husband thinks they should be, unless Mom works to convince someone to overrule him; instead of her position being the default.  But that can be a long, expensive battle.
 

This is our ultimate goal.  We were hoping to have a little time to make sure we are financially stable, but have been starting to feel like our hand is being forced.  We're just starting to do the research so we can figure out our next move.  Sometimes it feels more like planning for war instead of getting to just live our life.

[Lee'sGirl]

Mummoth - that's a great idea.  I'll have to see if he can get some sort of documentation.  Unfortunately he hasn't worked in a while (he was a stay-at-home dad for most of DSS's early years, then some depression issues after the marriage fell apart).  He's been trying, but it's hard to get back into the workforce.  The other things, though - the check-up and the letter from the places he's trying to apply for a program at - might very well be do-able.

I really appreciate the advice, ladies - I was a bit worried that I would come off as over-reacting or flat out crazy.  The support is fantastic!

[PixieAlly]

We have the kids from the morning of Dec 23 to 8pm on Dec 24 and then she gets them until the morning of the 26th. We were supposed to get them until 10pm on the 24th but she sent my BF some crappy text saying he should let her have the kids earlier  because it is detrimental to their health to make them stay up until 10pm and will upset the kids schedule. Um, don't kids usually stay up late on holidays? And not to mention she has requested letting her drop the kids off with us at 10pm and no mention of that being detrimental was mentioned then! But my BF told her yes, mainly  because we got to trade those 2 hours for another day where we wanted to keep them later anyway.  We get them New Year's day which is the day we'll be driving down to Disney World for a week. First road trip with all three kids...should be fun (or insane) :)

Ally

[PixieAlly]

Ugh, we're trying to work out a schedule for winter break and the ex is being so unreasonable. We worked it out and the way she proposes it, she will get the kids for about 70 awake hours (meaning hours they are not supposed to be in bed and asleep) and we will get them for about 9 awake hours. How can that even be considered reasonably by even the craziest person??? Our proposal gave her the kids for about 51 awake hours and us  about 28. Still not equal, but we are okay with that, especially since we have them for a week the first week of January. Unfortunately there is nothing in the divorce decree about winter and spring break, so we have no idea how to deal with this if she says no.

[autumngrey]

Ugh that sucks. My DSD's mom lives by the same wacky guidelines but fortunately our most recent court order limits her ability to unilaterally be as unreasonable (it states includes specific hours of the day for transfers to happen during the holidays).

Normally I'd say your BF's kids' mom has no business knowing (i.e. doesn't get the privilege of demanding to know) your holiday (or any other time together) plans but I wonder if it might be beneficial in this case. For example, identify the (potential) celebration times for having the holidays with your BF and his family, and "make the case" that her proposal isn't in the best interest of the children because it doesn't give them the ability to spend time with their dad and his family for the holiday. Of course, I make the assumption that her schedule prevents a reasonable celebration (my DSD's mom would, for example, offer up some random 8 hours during the day on a Tuesday, when it's not reasonable to get a group of adults all out of work to hold a holiday celebration, and then give a "take it or leave it, if you really want to see your kid, you'll do it during this time" story). It's important for kids to get to know the traditions of both sides of the family, and to celebrate the closeness with both sides of the family. Of course she doesn't think that, but if she says it (or WRITES it) she looks pretty bad. It wouldn't fix this holiday season, but such documentation might be the evidence you need to get a summary judgment for more specific times to be amended to the order.

Then, no matter how difficult she is, give those kids the best 9 hours you can possibly give. I find it remarkable how some upbeat holiday music gets my DSD into the spirit, and even the down times are less "boring" (her new favorite word). Being silly and dancing around or singing with the music can be its own kind of special.

And, if it's reasonable, ditch the usual sleep schedule if it's at least a few days before they have to go back to school. Some of my favorite memories of Christmas as a child are the hours we spent trying to stay awake until o-dark-thirty for my grandpa to get home from a late shift as a police officer so we could have our celebration together as a family.

[PixieAlly]

We do get them on the 23rd and 24th for Christmas and are happy about that since that is when we'll be celebrating. This argument is about the week after when they are off of school. She seems to think she gets them when the divorce says they are usually in school. She is claiming she had planned to be with them then, but we're letter her take the kids for 5 days that week to visit relatives. We are only asking for two. As for changing their sleep schedule I have to laugh because she throws a fit if we want to make a later pick up time (stating it is detrimental to their health to keep them up late), but she has no qualms asking if she can drop them off at 9 or 10pm when it is convenient for her! We will most likely stay up late though, since they don't have school.

[aricha]

I can't really get a handle on the intricacies of what sounds like a VERY complicated schedule for everyone involved... but it does sound like you are making some exceptions to the schedule so she can travel over the holidays. I would be inclined to go back to the beginning and say "if you aren't going to agree to an equitable vacation schedule, we are just going to have to go back to the schedule specified in the custody agreement." Her other option is to make it fair and equitable, or at least make a reasonable effort to make it more equitable... or to give up the 5 days you graciously gave her.

There was one Thanksgiving we had 5 uninterrupted days with my step-daughter. We had plans to go spend a vacation with family-- I had taken time off work, the kids were excited, our relatives were expecting us... but when we asked for her letter of consent (there was an open custody case, so neither parent cold legally travel outside the state without the other's permission and it was standard practice for both parents to get verbal permission to travel, then pick up written documentation a day or two before the trip) she suddenly decided she wasn't going to allow it. We were upset, the kids were upset, our family was upset... but we decided that we could either be miserable for 5 days or we could make the best of the time we had. In the short-term it might feel like it is worth it to let her do whatever she wants so that you can get two days with the kids to celebrate. But it might be better in the long-term to risk the loss of that uninterrupted time to make some changes to the way "agreements" work. It'd be a risk, but right now it doesn't sound like mom has anything to lose, so she just takes and takes and doesn't give anything in return. If you are modifying the schedule, it should be modified equitably or not at all. That's my 2-cents, anyway.

[PixieAlly]

 We don't really see it as giving her the 5 days because she is allowed to request up to 14 days per year for vacation and this is part of those 14 days. He is not allowed to just refuse to let her take them unless she is trying to take the kids when he has already scheduled a vacation and informed her about it. We really just want 2 days during the week off for winter break and she can have the rest. It's in her favor, she gets them more, but because it is not HER schedule the way she wants it, she throws up tons of road blocks. Ultimately, she wants an agreement that will force my BF to have to ask her permission every time he wants to leave the kids alone with me and her way to do that is to essentially say, "You can have those 2 days as long as you agree that you will be home with the kids and they will not be with a caregiver. [she never mentions me by name, just as a potential caregiver] And this rule should apply to any time the kids are with you in the future."
 

Originally Posted by aricha 

I can't really get a handle on the intricacies of what sounds like a VERY complicated schedule for everyone involved... but it does sound like you are making some exceptions to the schedule so she can travel over the holidays. I would be inclined to go back to the beginning and say "if you aren't going to agree to an equitable vacation schedule, we are just going to have to go back to the schedule specified in the custody agreement." Her other option is to make it fair and equitable, or at least make a reasonable effort to make it more equitable... or to give up the 5 days you graciously gave her.

There was one Thanksgiving we had 5 uninterrupted days with my step-daughter. We had plans to go spend a vacation with family-- I had taken time off work, the kids were excited, our relatives were expecting us... but when we asked for her letter of consent (there was an open custody case, so neither parent cold legally travel outside the state without the other's permission and it was standard practice for both parents to get verbal permission to travel, then pick up written documentation a day or two before the trip) she suddenly decided she wasn't going to allow it. We were upset, the kids were upset, our family was upset... but we decided that we could either be miserable for 5 days or we could make the best of the time we had. In the short-term it might feel like it is worth it to let her do whatever she wants so that you can get two days with the kids to celebrate. But it might be better in the long-term to risk the loss of that uninterrupted time to make some changes to the way "agreements" work. It'd be a risk, but right now it doesn't sound like mom has anything to lose, so she just takes and takes and doesn't give anything in return. If you are modifying the schedule, it should be modified equitably or not at all. That's my 2-cents, anyway.

[greenemami]

If she gets 14 days vacation, do you also get 14 days? Could you just call those 2 days part of your vacation time so she can't just tell you no? If ROFR only applies to overnights, then she realy doesn't get a say and your dp needs to pretty much tell her it's none of her business (in an nicer way of course :) Does she have a problem with any and all caregivers or just you specifically? I would ask dp to just tell dsd that he has it covered if she asks about "caregivers," and repeat as necessary. I generally do believe in the principal of ROFR, but in the circumstances you are describing, I think she is taking it too far.  Good luck!

[PixieAlly]

Well, she says it's any caregiver, but this has never been such a big issue until I came into the picture. She did sometimes complain in the past that my BF should ask her to babysit before his parents, but he wants the kids to spend time with their grandparents too, so he just ignored her. She says if the kids are going to be somewhere for a whole day, it should only be with a parent, especially if one parent is available during that time. For the most part I agree, but we're trying to explain that it's not just about being with a parent, but also about not bouncing the kids back and forth multiple times a day like they are now. They both complain about never getting to be in one house for a long enough period of time. Often they've just settled in and it's time to get them dressed and ready for mom's house. The younger one can never remember where he slept the night before or where he is going to sleep the next day. You can tell it's stressful on them so if they can see dad at breakfast, spend the day with me or the grandparents at dad's house and then see dad after work and for the rest of the evening, we feel that is beneficial to them compared to being at dads, then moms, then back to dads every single day. That's going to happen some days, and that's fine, but every day it stressful for everyone. I definitely agree with ROFR in overnight or longer-term situations, but we're talking about a few hours a day, 8 tops (and dad usually comes home for lunch as well, so they'd see him then too).

Well, we're waiting patiently for the response to the latest email...I'm hopefully she will agree to giving us the kids for those two days. We compromised and gave her some other stuff she wanted and also told her we'd be open to picking them up later on that Monday if she wanted to spend the morning with the kids...we'll see what happens.