Is bone broth all that it is hyped up to be? Lets talk about TF myths... - Page 2

[JMJ]

I think that it is a myth (or at least a common misunderstanding) that there is one TF diet.  There are numerous diets from numerous cultures, and it is difficult to make our modern diets perfectly resemble the exact diet from a culture that lived a long time ago and far, far away.  WAP took detailed notes, but he didn't make notes of exact amounts consumed of every little food and factor in all other lifestyle factors.  For some things, especially through pollution of waters and depletion of soils, the foods we would eat today are not the same as they were then.

Nor do we know that any of the individual diets studied by WAP are a panacea for all people of all cultures, just that they worked well in the cultures they were used.  It is clear that the people of individual cultures were using nutrient-rich diets based on the local foods available to them (and they tended to show an amazing ability to search out nutrient-rich foods in their own locales or make ways to travel or trade for them), but it is possible that they were also utilizing diets that worked well with their own genetics.  This can be most clearly seen in the fact that some cultures relied heavily on milk and some did not use dairy at all, and the cultures that relied on milk tended to have a gene that allowed them to digest lactose better than the people from cultures that did not rely on milk.

There were some telling similarities that we can take to heart such as the fact that every culture that used grains/beans soaked/sprouted/fermented them and usually served them with an acid, consumed meat with some sort of regularity, and prized certain organ meats and broths.

OP, reading your post, I can only wonder, have you had your Vitamin D checked recently?

[craft_media_hero]

I also wanted to add *and I am not an expert JMO* that I do think it's a myth or maybe just portrayed with overkill on meat, not everyone needs large servings of meat or every meal and I do think trad cultures would've had penty of times the meat was sparing but use small amounts and every part of the animal til its gone.

Personally, I am surprised at how much meat I need to consume to feel well (p retty much daily) but I don't think that is true for everyone, and I think folks can thrive on TF semivegetarian or predominately small amounts of seafood (especially if raw sushi sashimi etc) or like macrobiotic to an extent. I think I've heard others post o nthis topic before, too-encountering a lot of TF principles first in macrobiotic diet which tends to include sparing meat. Chime in?

[JMJ]

I agree that it's a myth that everybody needs as much meat as is emphasized in some TF diets.  There's really a range, and honestly, in most regions, using less meat and more produce is more ecologically sound.  There were very few cultures (Eskimo's, Masai, etc) who ate a whole lot of meat.  Most of the cultures WAP studied used much smaller amounts of nutrient-dense animal products

However, there is a good argument for the paleo/primal diets being very healing.  In our culture, we have SO MANY starches that we have damaged our guts terribly, and there is good evidence that paleo/primal diets are very good for helping recover from the damage that has been done.  I don't think this would be as necessary if we didn't damage our guts so badly in the first place, though.

[craft_media_hero]

Totally agree with that, JMJ! Thinking about going GAPS for my fam for just that reason, but for some reason terrified of going grain-free, it's been such a big part of our diets for so long (7 yrs veg before tf). So maybe when these two big bags of flour run out ;)

[raksmama]

 From what I understand, Weston A Price examined the diets of many different cultures and the diets really did vary. The isolated Swiss ate dairy, but not fish, The Japanese fish but not dairy. The Georgians also ate fermented dairy and grains. Only the Inuit (the PC name for "Eskimo") and the Massai ate primarily meat. What all these cultures had in common was they all ate a larger amounts of animal fat that what is nowadays considered acceptable for North American standards, they all ate some type of raw foods, some type of fermented food and they all ate only unrefined foods.

I also don’t consider myself an expert and am still learning. I have been considering the GAPS diet. I think it would be impossible to get my son (13) to do it completely. I also don’t relish the idea of having to make so much bone broth. I don’t mind the sell but my son and husband are sensitive and hate it.

Edited by raksmama - 12/20/11 at 4:47pm

[Sieren]

I was doing the GAPS diet, starting a few months ago, and coming from a TF/Paleo diet background of a few years.  

I think I am one of the people who is a little sensitive to the bone broth...I did have to do low FODMAPs for a week or so to help clear up some bloating-after-eating issues, and cutting out bone broth did seem to help, too.  Now I can tolerate pretty much any fruits and veggies; however I have found that fruits are best eaten first thing in the morning and NEVER after a meal.  I tried bone broth once a few days ago, but it just felt very heavy in my stomach.

After doing GAPS for a few months, I started getting intense cravings for raw animal foods, even though the actual idea sounded kind of unappitizing to me.  So now I am basically trying to integrate all the info I know about healing diets (Aajonus V's primal diet concepts, GAPS probiotics etc) and all of the things that WP's healthy people eating traditional diets did : raw animal foods and seafood, ferments, some veggies and some fruits.  I have been feeling much better lately!

I think its important for us to remember that we are coming from a much different place than say, a person who's grandmother and mother both ate healthy traditonal diets, so obviously they don't have much healing and "catching up" to do and probably have no issues eating properly prepared grains, raw dairy etc.  Compared to a person like me, who's grandmother and mother both ate a SAD, and who has multiple sclerosis---I still have a lot of healing to do I'm sure!!  Some people need different things in order to heal and unfortuently certian "healthy" foods won't be beneficial to them until they are healed.

[kmamma]

raksmama--the Masai have never traditionally relied on meat as their primary staple; it's milk. Warriors of the Masai subsist on a diet of meat, milk and blood, almost exclusively, for about 15 years out of their lives. But there are women Masai too, and children, and elderly;). There's a really interesting series on the subject of the Masai culture and diet over on the WAP website, by Chris Masterjohn. 

Regarding the OP's concern, it seems at least for your husband, and perhaps also for you that drinking broth puts your calcium intake too high, which will interfere with your magnesium status. I'm not sure what ratio of cal-mag there is in bone broth, but most likely there's more calcium than magnesium. Magnesium deficiency is a common concern, so you could simply add some magnesium rich foods to your diet and see if you tolerate the bone broth then. 

As for gout being common in the richer sauce eating population, it might be that they simply ate too much of it. Sauce often consists of very condensed stock, whereas when you drink a cup a day, it's likely much more watered down. So if you eat large quantities of sauce , most likely you're getting a very condensed source of purines. In a traditional diet of the 'people' I can only imagine stock wasn't as abundantly available as for the rich upper crust of more modern societies. 

I also have dental issues and when I used to drink stock every day, I noticed an improvement. I strongly believe in different people having vastly different nutritional needs. 

[kmamma]

Koalamom--Something else to consider is your consumption of grains, which I assume are whole. Your rampant dental decay could definitely be caused by eating improperly prepared grains. The assumption that traditional people ate their grains whole doesn't rest on much evidence at all, and in fact there's quite some evidence to the contrary. There are lots of studies done to measure the amount of phytic acid and other antinutrients eliminated by different methods of preparation. Soaking and sprouting don't do much for the phytic acid and in the case of sprouting, it actually activates the lectins in the bran and makes it even more harmful than just plain, untreated wheat! Check out this blog post for references to studies. 

Also, I really recommend getting Ramiel Nagel's book Cure Tooth Decay. There's some really great bits and pieces of information and references to check out further. He also brings up the question of whether old societies sifted their grains. 

[nicolelynn]

I personally found bone broth to NOT be a super food for me. I also consider myself former TF, eating a mostly whole foods flexitarian diet. Yeah, basically *gasp* mainstream nutrition.

All I know is I was healthy, ate TF for 2 years then got really sick with colitis caused by a parasitic/fungal infection. Supposedly something all the ferments, probiotics and bone broth was supposed to protect my gut from. I do understand health problems can originate with my genes and have more to do with what my Grandma ate then what I do, but still, I have too strong of an association of eating that way with being sick that it wouldn't be healthy for me now with all the dark feelings surrounding it. Anywho, I didn't come back to the TF forums to bash it or anything, I completely agree that there is no one diet for everyone and that many do great on a TF diet. I just ate SOOOO much bone broth trying to heal my gut and it did absolutely nothing (yes, I did paleo/low-carb/anti-candida/SCD/GAPS, you name it I tried it). Only medication worked. I have a huge aversion to the stuff now.

[nicolelynn]

Also, my teeth continued to decay whilst off all grains and almost all sugars (even fruit) for several months, so we can't blame wheat there. Bad teeth just run in my family so I am not going to stress myself out trying to find a super food to cure them.

[BubblingBrooks]

Originally Posted by nicolelynn 

Also, my teeth continued to decay whilst off all grains and almost all sugars (even fruit) for several months, so we can't blame wheat there. Bad teeth just run in my family so I am not going to stress myself out trying to find a super food to cure them.

Gut and tooth/bone issues take a long time to heal. Its not instant. We are talking as long as several years. Dental issues start with grandma, so one should never expect it to take just a few months. especially if it is an adult with the problems.
Think about how long it took for the problems to develop!

[nicolelynn]

I do understand that theoretically gut healing takes years, I spent a year researching gut health every day since I was so desperate. In the end I realized I could wait around eating bone broth for years or try the medication. I tried natural methods for a year and a half before taking the medication, that's how adamantly I was against it. It worked and my gut is fine now. Not saying a path of healing the gut naturally doesn't work for anyone, or that bone broth doesn't do wonders for some people, but I'm so glad I finally did what I did. I literally have a second chance at life.

[SandraMort]

This is where I have problems. I've got some health concerns and am trying to get used to bone broth, but BLECCCCH, I do not like it. Worse than that, I can't stand how it makes the house smell.

Sandra
 

Originally Posted by prancie 

It makes everything taste better, at least.  But more than that, i have noticed health benefits, better skin most notably.  

[serenbat]

but BLECCCCH, I do not like it. 

eat it! find more uses for it in things and not straight- soups, stews, cook rice in it, baste with it, marinades, make dog bones  -hard crackers (they are good for people too)- start more in things and get use to it-kind of---hide! can't help you with the smell, I like it----burn a candle during cooking? have cinnamon/clove/oranges simmering on the stove to mask the odor??

[TzippityDoulah]

I actually love chicken bone broth, but the beef makes me gag. After smelling it cooking all day I can't seem to get it down! So I stick with the chicken which works really well for me personally.

My biggest issue with TF diets (and i'm not bashing TF at all here) is that people tend to forget that few of us are genetically from one "tribe" or people. For instance I am nearly equally Cherokee and English. I can't tolerate milk whatsoever, only a little cheese/yogurt etc. And I don't do well with corn unless it's in extremely small amounts. It has taken experimenting to figure out what works for me personally. 

Once, before I admitted I was lactose intolerant, I went on a strict all raw milk diet. It was supposed to cure joint problem and fix pretty much all that ails you. After only a day I was SO sick. Bloated, puking, my body ached like crazy and it took weeks to get all the kinks worked out again. I have't tasted a lick of milk since :)

I also have fructose intolerance. Raw honey makes me instantly sick--even the smell (sudden hypoglycemic reaction). I can't eat any raw veggies except avocado and no fruits except sometimes cherries (who knows why). Which actually are berries but they get throw into the fruit category... So my diet (ok when I'm not pregnant and fighting puking like I am at the moment) consists of a little rice, nuts, LOTS of meat, tubers, and greens. Occasionally a berry cobbler or cookie I make from scratch.  

[SandraMort]

LOL! > find more uses for it in things and not straight- soups, stews, cook rice in it, baste with it, marinades, make dog bones See, this is the sort of answer I usually get but don't comprehend. If I don't like the taste of it, why would I want to cook with it? If I need to eat two cups a day, then using it to cook rice (and ruining perfectly cook rice) means I need to eat MORE than two cups of rice (or stew, or soup, or whatever). Wouldn't it make more sense to eat it straight to get it over with as fast as possible? Don't understand what you mean about dog bones, though.

[SandraMort]

OH, and if I've got broth cooking for days on end, cooking orange peels or lighting a candle isn't practical. Already lost one house to a fire this year.

[kmamma]

Originally Posted by TzippityDoulah 

I also have fructose intolerance. Raw honey makes me instantly sick--even the smell (sudden hypoglycemic reaction). I can't eat any raw veggies except avocado and no fruits except sometimes cherries (who knows why). Which actually are berries but they get throw into the fruit category... So my diet (ok when I'm not pregnant and fighting puking like I am at the moment) consists of a little rice, nuts, LOTS of meat, tubers, and greens. Occasionally a berry cobbler or cookie I make from scratch.  

I've just recently heard of this type of intolerance, and I'm wondering how you figured out it was fructose intolerance, and not something else. I used to eat raw honey daily with my yogurt, but stopped when moving to Sweden two years ago. I bought some organic, pasteurized, honey from the store the first day, but got a very itchy throat from it. Like I was allergic. So I switched to rapadura. 

A year later I wanted to go back to eating honey again cause I had developed some dental issues. I did get the same honey from the store again. Both the taste and smell made me want to puke, but I tried a bowl of yogurt with it anyways. I had the worst stomach ache of my life, just horrible sharp cramping. I went back to sugar for some time, but then we bought a different honey, acacia from another store and I found it to be pleasant smelling and mild. No stomach cramps at all. Just like the honey I had eaten in the US. 

Still, I'm perplexed about my reaction to the other honey. Does this sound like it's fructose related? If so, wouldn't that apply to all honeys?

[serenbat]

See, this is the sort of answer I usually get but don't comprehend.

most people get use to a "taste" in the above mentioned items, prior to doing it straight

guess you are out of luck!

do it as shots-bottoms up

[SandraMort]

> shots

Yeah, that's basically the plan. Big mugs, though.

Sandra