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post #201 of 406
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Edited by BaileyB - 2/10/12 at 11:47am
post #202 of 406
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Edited by BaileyB - 2/10/12 at 11:47am
post #203 of 406

Ok sorry to digress but...naming your kid after a important nazi.  Forget BC and SS#'s, now that is setting your kid up for failure!  Yikes.  Not saying the child should have been removed but again, yikes!

post #204 of 406
I guess I'm bothered by "oh they can get a SSN when they're 16 if they choose" -- it may not be that easy! It could take years. They could have lots of hassles, as others on this thread have experienced first-hand.

And what I'm REALLY confused about is, do you think that if you don't have a SSN or BC that CPS can't take your kids if you're an unfit parent???
post #205 of 406
Quote:
Originally Posted by crunchy_mommy View Post

I guess I'm bothered by "oh they can get a SSN when they're 16 if they choose" -- it may not be that easy! It could take years. They could have lots of hassles, as others on this thread have experienced first-hand.
And what I'm REALLY confused about is, do you think that if you don't have a SSN or BC that CPS can't take your kids if you're an unfit parent???

cruncy_mommy, i'll say this again. I GOT MY SSN at 16! It did not take years, because back in the 70's they were not automatically issued...or at least my mother didn't apply to get me one. SSN are completely voluntary, it is not mandatory so you can opt-in at anytime, you just can't opt-out.

 

If your child does not have a BC/SSN, then it is not a ward of the state; absent a marriage license, the state has no claim or jurisdiction over the child. Therefore removal of child by CPS would be kidnapping. The US has to have jurisdiction over the child to remove it into it's custody.

This is somewhat difficult to explain, because you have to understand jurisdiction and when it applies. US has jurisdiction over all it's CITIZENS ONLY! You automatically qualify to become a citizen upon birth on US soil, but you have to fill out the paperwork to claim that right (if it is a right you want).

 

I can not stress this enough people. If you properly prove your childs birth through witnesses (2-3) and medical records, you can/your child can, at any time, submit an application for a SSN. A birth certificate is not needed as all it does is prove your birth...kind of redundant! There is a greater amount of difficulty as more time passes because they have a harder time ensuring you are telling the truth. Hospitals keep records for what 3-7 years and then archive them? Archives aren't always reliable. That is why you, the parent, must keep good records.

 

post #206 of 406

Other 200 countries in the world do not care about the SSN. Not one bit.

post #207 of 406
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akkarin View Post

cruncy_mommy, i'll say this again. I GOT MY SSN at 16! It did not take years, because back in the 70's they were not automatically issued...or at least my mother didn't apply to get me one. SSN are completely voluntary, it is not mandatory so you can opt-in at anytime, you just can't opt-out.
But here in 2012 they ARE automatically issued. By the time your kid reaches 16/18 it would be 2030... you are banking on getting a SSN being just as easy then as they were when you were a kid?! WITHOUT a BC??? And you can google for stories of how long it takes some people to get a SSN, even with all the proper documentation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akkarin View Post

If your child does not have a BC/SSN, then it is not a ward of the state; absent a marriage license, the state has no claim or jurisdiction over the child. Therefore removal of child by CPS would be kidnapping. The US has to have jurisdiction over the child to remove it into it's custody.
This is somewhat difficult to explain, because you have to understand jurisdiction and when it applies. US has jurisdiction over all it's CITIZENS ONLY! You automatically qualify to become a citizen upon birth on US soil, but you have to fill out the paperwork to claim that right (if it is a right you want).
So you think CPS will come investigate you for possible abuse & then when they go to take your kid, "Oh, he doesn't have a SSN, we'll just have to leave him here with his abusive parents." ?!??!?!! (BTW I am not in any way applying you are/would be an abusive parent!!)

Also, I can't find anything to support your claim that if you don't get a BC, you aren't a citizen.
post #208 of 406

Akkarin---having worked in child welfare, I can assure you cps can and will remove a child without a bc or ssn if necessary. That's a bad reason not to have one.  Not sure where you got the idea that it will protect you. 

post #209 of 406

I agree that it is an interesting discussion, and honestly never meant to attack, or to bring up any political argument (I also hate politics myself, was just illustrating why my parents think the way they do). I just wanted to offer my perspective from the situation of my family. 

post #210 of 406

AKKARIN, so am I understanding you correctly.  Since you didn't get your child a birth cert or SS# you don't believe them to be citizens?  I am no expert but I don't believe it works that way.  I believe that regardless of your signing them up for the rights they are indeed citizens, like it or not.  Again why do you stay?  I am not being belligerent asking this question several times I just cant fathom what would keep you in this country.  If you truly dont want citizenship for your child why didn't you have them somewhere else so they wouldn't be faced with that "burden" at all?

post #211 of 406
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaileyB View Post

 

I think that having a UC or UP or doing just your own prenatal care, homeschooling/unschooling, being self sustainable and self sufficient are all ways of taking more responsibility for your self and children, not burdening them. 

 

 


If you need multiple affidavits from witnesses to the birth....

 

and you UP and UC.....

 

How is your child going to get those affidavits?   From whom?  When?  

It's only been 12 years since my son was born.  I'm not sure I could find three people other than me who saw him come out of my body and would remember it well enough to be willing to sign legal papers, and I had a hospital birth.  If you give birth alone, who else is going to attest so your kid can get their paperwork decades later?

 

post #212 of 406
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akkarin View Post

In Ohio, to home school your child, each year you have to submit an education plan with the school districts superintendent. He/she has to approve your educational plan and ensure you child receives enough educational hours. Yes, your child has to put in the same amount of hours and days required of public school. In addition, your child will be given state tests as necessary to ensure it is being educated to Public School standard. I want to educate my child at a level above public school standard and will educate my child as much or as little as necessary depending on the speed my child learns!

And I say, bravo to the state of Ohio! It's got a vested interest in making sure your kid gets a decent education, and it has no way of knowing whether you are providing that, or whether you are one of these folks we read about who believe letting their children play WoW all day long qualifies as lessons in hand-eye coordination, and who still can't read by the age of 16. Illiterate, ignorant people with no way of earning a living are eventually going to end up the problem of the state of Ohio, and it doesn't want that. If you are providing the stellar education you say you are - and I have no reason to doubt that - then what's the problem? None of the HSers I know have issues complying with state regulations.
post #213 of 406


Maybe it's the idea that the Man is telling you what to do.  I look at it like this.  The US is pretty much a corporation.  Each worker (us) needs to be able to coexist while applying to bottom line.  If you don't want to be part of the Corporation, so be it.  Change it then rather than hide from it.  I don't want to be part of it, but I realize that by starting small I can make a difference.  We didn't want toll roads here in SA.  And the citizens fought it.  HS here is as you want it.  You're a private school as a homeschooling family.  I can take my kids in and out of the school system all I want.  Having freedoms and rights starts with how you can handle it all.  You can hide or you can act.  I choose to act.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by zinemama View Post


And I say, bravo to the state of Ohio! It's got a vested interest in making sure your kid gets a decent education, and it has no way of knowing whether you are providing that, or whether you are one of these folks we read about who believe letting their children play WoW all day long qualifies as lessons in hand-eye coordination, and who still can't read by the age of 16. Illiterate, ignorant people with no way of earning a living are eventually going to end up the problem of the state of Ohio, and it doesn't want that. If you are providing the stellar education you say you are - and I have no reason to doubt that - then what's the problem? None of the HSers I know have issues complying with state regulations.


 

post #214 of 406
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imakcerka View Post



Maybe it's the idea that the Man is telling you what to do.  I look at it like this.  The US is pretty much a corporation.  Each worker (us) needs to be able to coexist while applying to bottom line.  If you don't want to be part of the Corporation, so be it.  Change it then rather than hide from it.  I don't want to be part of it, but I realize that by starting small I can make a difference.  We didn't want toll roads here in SA.  And the citizens fought it.  HS here is as you want it.  You're a private school as a homeschooling family.  I can take my kids in and out of the school system all I want.  Having freedoms and rights starts with how you can handle it all.  You can hide or you can act.  I choose to act.

I don't mind "the man" requiring my child to be educated, and the reason it's required is exactly because some citizens fought for it. It wasn't all that long ago that "the man" thought it was A-ok for little kids to work in coal mines and sweatshops all day. It was a long, hard slog to get mandatory education in this country. But we (i.e. people who gave a damn) made it happen. It's bizarre to me that there are people who turn around and look on a child's right to an education as a horrid form of oppression.
post #215 of 406


And I wasn't begrugding education.  I know it's important.  I'm saying that you can hide by trying hide out from the "Man" or you can face it and do something about the things you don't like. 
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by zinemama View Post


I don't mind "the man" requiring my child to be educated, and the reason it's required is exactly because some citizens fought for it. It wasn't all that long ago that "the man" thought it was A-ok for little kids to work in coal mines and sweatshops all day. It was a long, hard slog to get mandatory education in this country. But we (i.e. people who gave a damn) made it happen. It's bizarre to me that there are people who turn around and look on a child's right to an education as a horrid form of oppression.


 

post #216 of 406
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaileyB View Post

This is a really interesting conversation. Especially when I am not getting personally attacked for misunderstandings. stillheart.gif



Lol!

post #217 of 406
Quote:
Originally Posted by zinemama View Post


I don't mind "the man" requiring my child to be educated.


Who determines what/who is educated - the state?  Parents?

 

Stats show HSed children in general tend to outperform schooled children so I will take my chances with parents, thanks. 

 

I am fairly certain that States with high reporting requirements for HSers do not score any better on standardized tests than more loosy-goosy States. 

 

Eye wuld get a linck fer u, butt my brane has rotted from the ebil WoW.  mischievous.gif

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


Edited by purslaine - 2/6/12 at 10:50am
post #218 of 406
Quote:
Originally Posted by APToddlerMama View Post

Akkarin---having worked in child welfare, I can assure you cps can and will remove a child without a bc or ssn if necessary. That's a bad reason not to have one.  Not sure where you got the idea that it will protect you. 



Ok, tell me, if there is no BC & no SSN, then how would CPS even know about the child? You see, there would be no records of the child's existence in the eyes of the state. This isn't about abusing a child, this is about not being told how to raise the child.

I have given you personal stories illustrating my point, if you choose not to read them that is your choice. For me, the government has been abusive, so I do not trust it to be the "Father" of my child (insinuating Parens Patriae). It may be good enough 'Father' for other people's children though...as well as yours...that is up to you!

post #219 of 406
Quote:
Originally Posted by kathymuggle View Post



Who determines what/who is educated - the state?  Parents?

Stats show HSed children in general tend to outperform schooled children so I will take my chances with parents, thanks. 

I am fairly certain that States with high reporting requirements for HSers do not score any better on standardized tests than more loosy-goosy States. 

Eye wuld get a linck fer u, butt my 15 yer old is halving trubble logggging into the evil WoW.  mischievous.gif

I think it's great that so many HSers do so well! All the folks I know who homeschool are doing a wonderful job of it. You seem to be saying that this fact means HS parents shouldn't be required to demonstrate that their kids are learning anything. If parents want to teach their kids above and beyond the state standards, great! But I don't see why state-mandated educational standards shouldn't apply to everyone.

You may joke about kids playing video games all day in lieu of learning to read. But anyone who's been at MDC awhile - and I know you have - has read those heartbreaking threads by parents whose children do exactly that (and I know it's a minority). I think it's tragic, not funny.

But yeah, this has gotten far from birth certificates...
post #220 of 406

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by crunchy_mommy View Post


But here in 2012 they ARE automatically issued. By the time your kid reaches 16/18 it would be 2030... you are banking on getting a SSN being just as easy then as they were when you were a kid?! WITHOUT a BC??? And you can google for stories of how long it takes some people to get a SSN, even with all the proper documentation.
So you think CPS will come investigate you for possible abuse & then when they go to take your kid, "Oh, he doesn't have a SSN, we'll just have to leave him here with his abusive parents." ?!??!?!! (BTW I am not in any way applying you are/would be an abusive parent!!)
Also, I can't find anything to support your claim that if you don't get a BC, you aren't a citizen.


Actually SSN's are still not automatically issued or my little one would have one. It was unfortunate that our Midwife felt the labor went out of her comfort after 3 days, so we got stuck at a hospital (child was out of position and a car ride fixed that, went from 4cm to 7cm by the time we reached the hospital).

 

Ok, you think CPS can take a child not in it's jurisdiction. Consider every Mormon compound throughout the Southwest. They can not touch those children, and some of those children are not highly educated. Unless those children are so abused and that abuse is proved...they may take the children, but have to give them back if evidence lacks. It makes me think of a compound in Texas where incest was thought to occur. Well, they couldn't prove it and so the children were returned.

 

Establishing Citizenship without a Birth Certificate

http://answers.usa.gov/system/selfservice.controller?CONFIGURATION=1000&PARTITION_ID=1&CMD=VIEW_ARTICLE&ARTICLE_ID=9753&USERTYPE=1&LANGUAGE=en&COUNTRY=US

 

"If you were born in the U.S. and there is no birth certificate on file, you will need several different documents to substantiate your citizenship. "

You are not a citizen until you file the necessary paperwork! You are just automatically qualify if you were born in the country though.

 

 

http://ssa.gov/pubs/10023.html

"We can accept only certain documents as proof of U.S. citizenship. These include a U.S. birth certificate, U.S. consular report of birth, U.S. passport, Certificate of Naturalization or Certificate of Citizenship."

 

Ta da....I'm in the process of of getting my child a passport.


Edited by Akkarin - 2/5/12 at 8:42pm
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