Feeling "above it" (the law/government) is not at all the same as not wanting to be tethered to and controlled by it. Very, very different as a matter of fact.
SS numbers are NOT required by law, so she is not "flouting the law".
I took the OP's use of the word "gross" to mean that it is gross to be dependent upon the government and kowtowing to it, which is a sentiment I completely understand. If I misunderstood, OP, please correct me.
yes. this.
We had a hospital birth after a transfer from the birth center and declined the social security number. It was a hassle, and it was even argumentative to the point that we felt 'threatened' a bit, but we did succeed in declining. We also 'accidentally' filled out the birth certificate form incorrectly, and it was sent to us a few months after ds's birth stating that we needed to correct it for a formal copy. We never actually did that, so it's actually possible that ds does not have a birth certificate as well.
For a next child, we intend to avoid both a state birth certificate and a social security number. There are ways to 'prove' that your child was born and is alive without a state issued form. And, as for it being difficult for your child to 'do' anything in the future, well, that can obviously be presented to your child along with the reasons why you did not get them for him or her in the first place and they may choose to either get them or continue to live without.
We intend on presenting this fact to ds well before he would intend to have a job or drive a car, and let him choose for himself if the benefits outweigh the 'state' ramifications.
For the record, my partner and I have both lost our birth certificates and social security numbers/cards in the past two years (traveling) and it's yet to present a problem that we can't get around. In fact, there are many people who DO fly, get passports, ect... all without state forms of ID. It's all a matter of what you're comfortable with I guess.
How old is your child? It is pretty easy to get along without a SSN/BC when they are little, but once they grow up a bit it becomes a real barrier. I think it is pretty uinfair to make your kid go through the incredible hassle of obtaining a SSN in order to do something as fundamental as getting a driver's license.
Feeling "above it" (the law/government) is not at all the same as not wanting to be tethered to and controlled by it. Very, very different as a matter of fact.
SS numbers are NOT required by law, so she is not "flouting the law".
I took the OP's use of the word "gross" to mean that it is gross to be dependent upon the government and kowtowing to it, which is a sentiment I completely understand. If I misunderstood, OP, please correct me.
Not to be overly combative about the whole "gross" thing, but I'm feeling pretty combative about the idea that anyone is gross. And what do you mean by kowtowing to the government? I'm pretty sure the people on WIC aren't spending their spare time writing patriotic anthems. My tax dollars go to a lot of projects, and I benefit from a lot of them too. If you need help, you need it.
Look I get not wanting to depend on the Government. I get not wanting to be tethered by the corporation that is tied to your name. You're just another cog in the wheel. However, there is a degree of gliding through and spitting in their face. I glide through. I don't play their games anymore and I know that I'm not just monkey in the circus. I also know that now that I have children I have to teach them to be aware and I can't make severe choices for them. They come home spouting all sorts of interesting "Facts". We take the time to help them understand why they are taught that and how to look through it all. Wanting to distance yourself from the "Man" is not a bad thing, it's good. However making things more difficult than they have to be can be very hard. It's better to dip your foot in a little to know whats going on than to hide from it all in the hopes that it won't penetrate your life.
I trust that all those who are hiding from "the Man" and evading taxes are not using the roads, parks, and other public goods that are paid by my income taxes.
Yes, honey, we have chosen a life of crime and dishonesty for you. We hope you appreciate all that we have not done for you.
And anybody who would tell their kid that they need to live their life under the radar really needs to hope against hope that their children never need to avail themselves of all those "gross" services provided by government using my tax dollars.
Gross. Gross, indeed.
Estimated cost of college in 18 years- $215,000
Estimated cost of 3 BR house in Southern MN in 25 years- $206,000
Estimated amount of money needed for comfortable requirement in 65 years- $3,147,200
Trying to do all this without a SSN- Priceless.
Well, if her husband's parents have a couple calves born on the same day as the new baby just like the first, that could help pay for this baby's college fund as well.
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I was born off the grid with no birth certificate and so were several of my siblings. It was fine for our parents because they didn't have to prove anything. But, I wanted to go to college, get job, and a passport. The amount of time and money I spent to get a birth certificate and a SS# was insane. I had to track down people who attended the delivery and get sworn affidavits, I had to find my childhood doctor (who had died) and get copies of my medical records, and get my parents to write a statement about why I didn't have a birth certificate. One of my sisters had to hire a lawyer.
Get the kid a birth certificate and don't get SSN for now, if you don't plan on using it.
In response to this sort of thing, I'd like to just make it clear, that (for our family) we do realize what it will take to get all these documents later in our child's life. And, because of this, we DO have documentation that will make it easier, we DO plan to pay the costs should he choose to have them, and we DO intend to 'help' our son get these documents should he want them. If I were to have a UC for a next, I WOULD make sure that I had witnesses that could sign that I birthed, I would make sure that I was prepared for the eventuality that my child would want to 'prove' his or her birth later in life to get a state-sanctioned birth certificate.
I think, as well as my partner, that each person should have a right to CHOOSE whether or not they enter the 'system' rather than simply be born into it. My partner and I feel that there are a multitude of reasons why one would NOT want to become a member of the State system, and that one thing we can give our son that was not given to us is the ability to CHOOSE where that interaction occurs. If my son wants/needs these documents, we will get them for him, end of story. However, having lived our lives the way we currently do, I would say that they are not particularly 'necessary' if you live a life outside the 'norm' and get creative.
not to be ridiculous here or anything, but I saw going to college or healthcare coming up in previous posts, and I just want to throw out there that things do CHANGE. There's the possibility that going to university is no longer the norm, and we all are aware that many VERY successful people have forewent traditional schooling. Health insurance might just not exist in the future, or might operate on some completely different system where an ID issued by the current government is no longer necessary or valid. Obviously, it's slim that things things will be 'normal' in 18 years, but it's worth thinking about.
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your asking a lot of questions here that could get the people who do manage this successfully in trouble if they answered truthfully...
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??? So what you're talking about is illegal?
your asking a lot of questions here that could get the people who do manage this successfully in trouble if they answered truthfully...
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??? So what you're talking about is illegal?
Well, if you want someone to come on here and tell you that they don't pay taxes, I'd imagine that'd be considered illegal right?
So, if anyone is managing that one, then I'd doubt they'd post about it. lol but obviously that's the clear path to living under the grid.
There are a lot of grey areas to the law, a lot of things that aren't entirely clear, particularly if you are a person who is LOOKING for those loopholes so that you can live outside the system.
Anyway, wow, this is a heated thread. So, there are websites out there about the whole sovereign citizen thing, and there are websites out there about people who fly ect... without government documentation, just look for it on Google if interested. And there are obvious ways to live without bank accounts, college degrees, owning homes or cars, ect...
The whole point of it for me is to give my child the choice. And, yes, I do happen to think that this could be a decision that could be handled by a 13 yr old. I believe the children are capable of a lot more than we give them credit for, and I hope I'm raising my child so that he COULD handle a conversation of that sort around that age!
And, I also think it's important to think about why we do things. Why do we all need state sanctioned ID? Why does every birth and death in the US NEED documentation? Primarily because the government provides so much...the roads, ect... as people have mentioned previously, and they need their taxable citizens to fund these things. I get that. I really do. HOWEVER, what if I don't want them? Just what if? Well, there's no options available to me!! I'm already in their databases, I already owe taxes from literally birth for things I don't need from them! Or how about all the things I don't even USE like schools for my children, ect...!
Idk, if we're going to go further into it, it seems silly to keep it in the UC forum, as it's more of a political discussion that really has no way of changing how most people feel. lol, Some of us think that the State doesn't NEED to exist and would like to have options of living outside of it without threat of violence. Others, like what the state offers and can't understand the rest of us. And quite a lot of people just can't imagine living any other way than with a State.
OP - I didnt' quote it, but you think taking an under the table job is a good solution for life?
Have you ever talked to an undocumented worker? Because I know them, and they work their a$$es off. Seven days a week.For $10/hour. No paid time off, no benefits. I don't even think that they can get workman's comp if they get hurt at work. And if your child were to take a job like this someday and complain and try to get treated properly, he/she would likely get fired and replaced with someone who can be kept in check with threats of a call to border patrol.
I just can't understand how someone thinks this is a reasonable solution.
I would get the BC and forgo the SSN. Your child may want to, like, do stuff off the homestead someday.
In response to this sort of thing, I'd like to just make it clear, that (for our family) we do realize what it will take to get all these documents later in our child's life. And, because of this, we DO have documentation that will make it easier, we DO plan to pay the costs should he choose to have them, and we DO intend to 'help' our son get these documents should he want them. If I were to have a UC for a next, I WOULD make sure that I had witnesses that could sign that I birthed, I would make sure that I was prepared for the eventuality that my child would want to 'prove' his or her birth later in life to get a state-sanctioned birth certificate.
I think, as well as my partner, that each person should have a right to CHOOSE whether or not they enter the 'system' rather than simply be born into it. My partner and I feel that there are a multitude of reasons why one would NOT want to become a member of the State system, and that one thing we can give our son that was not given to us is the ability to CHOOSE where that interaction occurs. If my son wants/needs these documents, we will get them for him, end of story. However, having lived our lives the way we currently do, I would say that they are not particularly 'necessary' if you live a life outside the 'norm' and get creative.
not to be ridiculous here or anything, but I saw going to college or healthcare coming up in previous posts, and I just want to throw out there that things do CHANGE. There's the possibility that going to university is no longer the norm, and we all are aware that many VERY successful people have forewent traditional schooling. Health insurance might just not exist in the future, or might operate on some completely different system where an ID issued by the current government is no longer necessary or valid. Obviously, it's slim that things things will be 'normal' in 18 years, but it's worth thinking about.
The first question that comes to mind when reading this post is...what happens if something happens to you and your partner, while your children are still little? Will they even know that they have no legal identify, birth certificate, etc? Woudl they know where to go to find out that information? This could really leave them high and dry...
Oh - and the idea that health insurance will reach a point where state ID isn't required is pretty much a pipe dream. It could happen, but it's not going to be in the even remotely near future.
I suppose I can see how people could live without the State...but you're not. I mean - maybe you are, if you don't ever drive or use the roads, libraries, etc., but it seems really unlikely. I have a friend irl who keeps as low a profile as anyone I've ever known, and is a radical unschooler...but her kids are still registered in a couple of specific classes (at their request), and she still drives on the public roads, uses our medical insurance (well, she would, if there were an injury - she uses very alternative health care for day to day life), goes to the library, etc. Living without the State with kids sounds very difficult.
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