Parents' milk usage - your cultural milk background

[MilkandKids]

Hello everyone, I'm a nutritional anthropology student and am doing my honors thesis on milk and culture and wanted to learn about parents' cultural attitudes towards milk for their children. I won't publish this and did not ask any personal information - I'm just interested in how mothers and fathers feel about different aspects of milk.

Thanks for your time and let me know if you have any questions about milk and child development and I'll do my best to find the scientific answers to them and provide the sources from academic databases.

http://edu.surveygizmo.com/s3/738867/Mothering

[AdinaL]

What an interesting survey!  Thanks for sharing.  

[rubidoux]

Since this is your first post, I just wanted to mention that we (at mothering) are probably not a very reliable cross section of the community.  I think we are much more likely than mainstream parents to nurse well into toddlerhood and past and thus are less likely to feel like we need to rely on cows milk.  There're also a lot of people here who are more concerned and educated about nutrition, probably more so than you'd find out in the general population.  And you would probably find that we are more likely to have beliefs about food and nutrition that don't line up with mainstream beliefs.  

[MilkandKids]

Quote:

There're also a lot of people here who are more concerned and educated about nutrition, probably more so than you'd find out in the general population.

I absolutely agree based on what I've read in the forums, and I think you hit the nail on the head throughout your post. I was actually interested in capturing the sentiments of this community since I understand that the site tagline "inspiring natural families" would likely resonate with most visitors and could provide a balance to the average parent's level of interest in their child's milk consumption.

It is an issue that takes a great deal of interest to educate yourself on and is an investment to put your money towards.

In any case, I appreciate your observations and everyone's time in participating. Thanks.

[crunchy_mommy]

Some of these questions were hard to accurately answer... question #10, for ex., does not have an option for "do not buy milk" -- I chose the last option since sometimes I make my own nut milks but we don't actually buy any kind of milk, dairy or non-dairy. Question #5 was problematic too, I know that cow's milk does contain low levels of vitamin D naturally, assuming the cows live outdoors, but most cow's milk is also supplemented with synthesized D. And question #4, cow's milk does contain calcium but it may not be the best source of calcium (some say the calcium in cow's milk could be detrimental to body calcium levels)... so it's hard to say "agree" or "disagree" to these questions. Maybe this is more in-depth than you need your survey to be, I just thought I'd mention that some results may be misleading!

[LindyGirl]

I took the survey for you! :)

[brneyedmama]

Hi OP-

Just wanted to say that I am one of those parents that knows very little about how milk in large quantities effects kids, but have always wanted to know.  My daughter self weaned at 4 months, much to my dismay and I thought she acted like she had a dairy intolerance (so do I) so she's always been on a soy formula.  Now that she's a year, the pediatrician said we can just switch over to cow's milk, but she drinks 32-40 ounces a day, and my gut says not to do it.  I would LOVE to see your research when your done, please consider e-mailing or PM'ing me your results.  thanks!

[blessedwithboys]

OP, I couldn't do your survey bc it didn't have options for raw milk.

brneyedmama:  I say this very gently...babies don't "self-wean" at four months.  You would probably get lots of great advice on the Traditional Foods board regarding the dangers of soy milk/formula as well as the benefits of raw milk over pasteurized.

[BroodyWoodsgal]

OP, I am really excited that you are asking questions about milk consumption, I think it's important that someone does! It drives me nuts that so many people consume it in such great quantities from poor sources and without the knowledge that it's not anywhere as good as "they" say it is to drink it "dead"(pasteurized).

However, and I say this completely gently, I really think you need to rework your entire survey. The first (milk related) questions in, I kind of gave answers that fit -somewhat- for the sake of answering (even though there wasn't an answer that REALLY fit for me) but as I continued on, I wasn't able to find any answer that even kind of fit.

I will tell you about our milk consumption habits and view points, to give you an idea of the type of answers I would be looking to check off on such a survey (I believe there are many people in these forums and on the internet in general, who would may choose answers that reflected similar habits to mine):

I buy raw milk from pastured, organically raised cows from farmer friends(very local) of ours. I avoid pasteurized milk as much as possible. Our yogurt, cheese and cream are all raw milk derived....it's important to us to avoid the chemicals, hormones, etc, but we're also interested in drinking/consuming milk products that are actually nutritious and not just yummy or filling...so even though we do consume dairy products that end up heated, etc in the process of being made, we like for those products to start with fresh, raw milk.

I believe in the nutritional value of unaltered milk from healthy, properly fed animals, but believe that not only is there little to no nutritional value remaining, post-pasteurization (because that is reflected in the science behind studying the effects of pasteurization and the inefficacy of "fortification" of pasteurized products) but also that pasteurized milk is significantly chemically altered to a state that it is actually harmful to the body.

I would absolutely love to help you with your survey but I can't really take it because it doesn't allow me to give answers which reflect the above posted habits/view points!!

Very cool study, though, that you are performing! Examination of the history of milk consumption, specifically to do with how we got started drinking pasteurized milk, the political aspects of milk consumption and where politics, big business and the medical community collide and collude is a very interesting road trip through modern history.

[bodhitree]

to what AverysMomma said. We drink raw goats milk from local farmers who pasture their animals and give them only organic feed. It's hard to answer some of the questions on your survey because to me, pasteurized industrial milk from the store and the milk that we drink are almost like two different foods. My daughter has had difficulty with conventional store-bought dairy products in the past, reacting to them with rashes and increased night waking, but she has no trouble at all with the goats milk we are currently drinking. Since I see such differences between what we consume and what most people consume, I don't know how to answer questions about "milk" in general. Also, some things depend on what you're eating other than dairy. For example, the question about whether parents can safely substitute rice or soy milk instead of cows milk. Well, if they are eating a nutrient-dense diet in all other respects, then I don't think they even need milk, so yes, that would be safe IMO. But is rice or soy milk nutritionally equivalent to cows milk? Not at all, so if you're letting your kid wander around sipping rice milk all day and assuming that's going to meet the same nutritional needs that milk can, then that's misguided.

Maybe I'm making it way more complicated than it needs to be. But I've spent a ton of time lately learning about milk, so I'm having a hard time finding answers that fit what I really think.

[Lovesong]

I have to agree with the others, the survey really has to be reworked to properly reflect people's view of milk. It is a good thing that someone wants to make a survey, but I'm afraid the results would not be accurate as it stands (not that any survey's are accurate...but that's another discussion). The golden rule is to always, always, always give a neutral option to all questions to reflect the group that simply has no opinion that leans either way.

But anyhow, I thought I would also give you a more complete answer.

I am a Swede. This means that I belong to a group of people that do generally have a better tolerance for dairy products than many other groups. It also means I live in a country where the production of dairy products is heavily regulated both by Swedish law and EU directives. I don't have to think about things like antibiotics in my milk, nor about additives except vitamin D. Further, it means I come from a culture where milk (mother's milk) is viewed as a natural source of food for a baby, and where cow's milk is a logical next step once a baby is weaned. In other words, milk is generally unproblematic where I live.

With that said, I am aware that some children really can't handle milk. So, a child can be reared and develop properly without milk when needed for whatever reason. I still do believe, however, that milk is a very good thing if a child can handle it and me myself would never be without milk if I could choose, since I depend on it as much as some do coffee.

[mammal_mama]

What an interesting survey and what an interesting thread!

My survey responses were probably some of the most contradictory ones...because I do not believe that cow's milk is a necessary component of a healthy diet, for children or for anyone, and I am also concerned about all the stuff that gets added into our milk here in the U.S. -- and yet, regular milk nevertheless composes a large part of my family's diet.

Dh and I started our parenting career more or less eating the standard American diet, with the slight caveat that I have pretty much always placed a high value on eating fresh fruits and vegetables as much as possible, so our girls have kinda gotten into the habit of eating in I guess what you'd call the "regular American kid way" (though I know there really is no one description that fits all kids' food preferences).

So...I'd be rather concerned about them getting enough protein and calcium if we eradicated cows' milk from our diet entirely, and in the amounts that we are used to drinking it, organic, which is about double the cost, is simply not an affordable option for us. I know that green vegetables such as broccoli are a much better calcium source, and the girls do sometimes enjoy broccoli raw with ranch, and dd2 also enjoys it cooked sometimes, but not in near the amounts that might replace the calcium that they are now getting from milk.

Plus, I love milk and cheese, too. I can't imagine drinking my morning cup of coffee without it, especially now that I no longer add sugar.

I guess you could say that I'm natural in some ways; for example, I breastfed both my daughters until each one weaned herself at well beyond four years of age, I wore my babies, we cosleep as much as, and for as long as, our girls want to, I believe in gentle discipline, we unschool, etcetera...but in other ways, I'm seriously lazy. I tend to make changes in small increments, which can sometimes be too little too late when you think about how fast our little ones grow up. I also tend to avoid conflict, which may surprise some since I can be so opinionated online.

I look forward to reading more posts on this topic! Ciao!

[AllisonR]

Haven't read all replies and not taken survey yet, though I will. I live in Denmark, which I believe is the worlds #1 milk and dairy country per capita. A lot of cows here. Anyway, milk is really pushed here as good, but I also believe that the countries that drink the most milk have the HIGHEST rate of osteoporosis. Which is ironic, but may be due to the excess calcium causing calcium to actually be leaked from the bones. 

Ok - just took it. All was OK, except the last item made no sense - "In grade school"? What does that mean? Media - news - tv - also made no sense, because I would not automatically trust news from TV networks, but might get information from various online sites - but does that count as Media in your questionaire? What about family or friends, I would trust their information more than my parents. (Not that I don't love my parents, just that I don't think their knowledge of milk is really up to date). 

[AllisonR]

Originally Posted by Lovesong 

I am a Swede. This means that I belong to a group of people that do generally have a better tolerance for dairy products than many other groups. It also means I live in a country where the production of dairy products is heavily regulated both by Swedish law and EU directives. I don't have to think about things like antibiotics in my milk, nor about additives except vitamin D. Further, it means I come from a culture where milk (mother's milk) is viewed as a natural source of food for a baby, and where cow's milk is a logical next step once a baby is weaned. In other words, milk is generally unproblematic where I live.

Ditto this. And totally OT: Lovesong - how much are you charging for a kilo of butter? ;) I'm paying 15 kroner, but I heard our neighbors are willing to pay 800. 

[Aufilia]

I can see how some had trouble with a lot of questions, but the only one that really tripped me up was #8 -- about whether you can substitute soy/rice milk for cow's milk, but didn't explicitly state your purpose in doing so.  I don't think you can substitute one for the other nutritionally; they contain different types of nutrients at different levels.  But I certainly do buy soy for my milk-intolerant child because he wants milk in his cup just like everyone else in the family.  So nutritionally--no.  Socially--yes!

[NYCVeg]

Originally Posted by AllisonR 

Ok - just took it. All was OK, except the last item made no sense - "In grade school"? What does that mean? Media - news - tv - also made no sense, because I would not automatically trust news from TV networks, but might get information from various online sites - but does that count as Media in your questionaire? What about family or friends, I would trust their information more than my parents. (Not that I don't love my parents, just that I don't think their knowledge of milk is really up to date). 

Yes, I found myself totally unable to answer that question. I don't get information on milk from ANY of those sources--my information comes mostly from books on nutrition/health and peer-reviewed scientific research. I guess that might count as "media," but certainly not television or popular media. If the survey-writer was trying to get info on how useful those particular sources were to parents, it would make more sense to weigh EACH source on a scale (so they could all be marked "zero"/"not at all important," if that was the case), rather than to consider them only in relation to one another.

[tooraloora]

I started the survey but didn't finish, as I didn't feel I could answer it accurately.

#8 tripped me up. "Parents can safely substitute cow's milk with soy or rice milk." First and foremost, I view cow's milk as completely unnecessary, so it need not be replaced with anything at all. A healthy, balanced diet will provide the needed nutrients without a dairy substitute. Second, although various cow's milk alternatives can be nutritious in their own right (though I would be hard pressed to include rice milk among them) they are nutritionally very different than cow's milk. They're really more intended to replace cow's milk in taste for beverages and cooking.

I wasn't really sure how to answer #9 either. "How concerned are you about HGH, antibiotics, or other contaminants like pus in your milk?" I'm healthy and don't take antibiotics, so MY milk is fine, but I assume you're talking about cow's milk here. I'm not at all concerned about that stuff because I do not consume cow's milk, but the way it's phrased it seems as though it's more directed towards someone who does. A "Not applicable" option would be good here.

#10 posed a problem, too. "I usually buy" ... None of the above. I occasionally make almond milk but I no longer purchase it, and it isn't considered a staple of our diet.

As for #11...

Originally Posted by NYCVeg 

Yes, I found myself totally unable to answer that question. I don't get information on milk from ANY of those sources--my information comes mostly from books on nutrition/health and peer-reviewed scientific research. I guess that might count as "media," but certainly not television or popular media. If the survey-writer was trying to get info on how useful those particular sources were to parents, it would make more sense to weigh EACH source on a scale (so they could all be marked "zero"/"not at all important," if that was the case), rather than to consider them only in relation to one another.

I agree.

[Lovesong]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AllisonR 

Ditto this. And totally OT: Lovesong - how much are you charging for a kilo of butter? ;) I'm paying 15 kroner, but I heard our neighbors are willing to pay 800. 

800 kroner for a kilo of butter?! Then we would never be able to afford melted butter with our potatoes! Here, it runs about 60 kronor for a kilo. So rather expensive in comparison. On the other hand, it is pure, good quality butter we buy. Not the cheapest on the shelf, since dad says they just don't taste as good. Not that I can taste the difference once in the food...

Originally Posted by Aufilia 

I can see how some had trouble with a lot of questions, but the only one that really tripped me up was #8 -- about whether you can substitute soy/rice milk for cow's milk, but didn't explicitly state your purpose in doing so.  I don't think you can substitute one for the other nutritionally; they contain different types of nutrients at different levels.  But I certainly do buy soy for my milk-intolerant child because he wants milk in his cup just like everyone else in the family.  So nutritionally--no.  Socially--yes!

I agree with you there. Nutritionally I don't really think milk can be replaced my any one thing. You would have to put together quite a complex meal, to get all of the vitamins and minerals that milk contain. But I do believe milk can be substituted, definitely. It is not a must for a child to drink milk to develop healthily.
 

[sewchris2642]

I took the survey but a lot of my choices don't reflect real life at our house.  While I do buy fluid milk, it's mostly used in cooking and baking, not for drinking.  Drinking milk is nice and chocolate milk can make a great occasional snack, it's not necessary for a healthy diet.  In fact, children can drink too much milk and be to full to eat a variety of good healthy foods.  Dairy is an important part of our diet but in the form of cheese, yogurt, kefir, etc. (i.e. cultured/fermented milk), not fluid milk.  As for where i get my information about milk, I chose parents as #1 because this is the way I grew up.  TV/media was last because I wasn't sure that choice meant books, articles, literature, research material, etc or just popular/advertiser driven media.

[Buzzer Beater]

The survey was tricky for me as well, in a number of spots.

We do not use cow's milk at all. We use rice milk for cereal and nobody in the house drinks any sort of milk.